Yom Hashoah

[Shusha]

Challenger

90% of the Holocaust survivors who live in Israel are receiving adequate care and assistance from the government or from non-government organizations. 10% seem to have slipped through the cracks of the bureaucracy and appear to require both recognition and additional assistance. We might argue that the criteria for assistance is set too high (though you incorrectly said that proof was required -- its not -- it done by interview and depends on the extent of the persecution suffered). One might even argue that there was not a single Jew alive in Europe of the time of the Shoah who was not persecuted and thus even more people deserve compensation than those who are currently registered.

All these things can be discussed, and we will probably find a high rate of agreement.

However, your posts, including your OP and many of the media reports you linked to, are not designed to discuss flaws in the system of Israel's law. They were meant to villify Israel and particularily the concept of Zionism, as in the right of the Jewish people to a national self-determination.

You appear to be trying to make two points, above and beyond the simple idea that 10% of Israel's Holocaust survivors are not receiving adequate assistance.

First, that Zionism is a failure -- that flaws in the system or bureaucracy of Israel are indications that the Jewish people's self-determination is fundamentally incorrect. That if Zionism can not achieve perfection, then it has no right to exist. That if Zionism were conceptually morally achievable, it could and would be put into perfect practice.

Second, that Zionists themselves are moral failures in their inability to create a perfect society. That Zionists are inherently anti-semitic -- that is hostile and prejudiced towards the Jewish people. That Zionists themselves have an evil intent towards Jews.


Allow me to respond by saying, first that no country in the world is expected to achieve perfection as a condition of their right to self-determination. There is no country in the world with a perfect human rights record or a perfect society. Every one is flawed. Every one has people who slip through the cracks. Canada has an atrocious record with respect to our First Nations peoples. Japan has incredibly high rates of suicide. The US has increasing polarization of race and religious groups. As examples.

You are holding Israel to impossible standards and then applying malicious intent to her failure to achieve those impossibly high standards -- and applying that malicious intent to her people. You are using your invented malicious intent to deny the right of the Jewish people to national self-determination.

Your use of the term "Zionist" gives you away. There is no reason to use that term when discussing flaws in the government of Israel. You should, correctly, just use the term "Israel". After all, if you are simply making a valid criticism of Israel, or its government, why wouldn't you use that term?

 

[Coyote]

Challenger

90% of the Holocaust survivors who live in Israel are receiving adequate care and assistance from the government or from non-government organizations. 10% seem to have slipped through the cracks of the bureaucracy and appear to require both recognition and additional assistance. We might argue that the criteria for assistance is set too high (though you incorrectly said that proof was required -- its not -- it done by interview and depends on the extent of the persecution suffered). One might even argue that there was not a single Jew alive in Europe of the time of the Shoah who was not persecuted and thus even more people deserve compensation than those who are currently registered.

All these things can be discussed, and we will probably find a high rate of agreement.

However, your posts, including your OP and many of the media reports you linked to, are not designed to discuss flaws in the system of Israel's law. They were meant to villify Israel and particularily the concept of Zionism, as in the right of the Jewish people to a national self-determination.

You appear to be trying to make two points, above and beyond the simple idea that 10% of Israel's Holocaust survivors are not receiving adequate assistance.

First, that Zionism is a failure -- that flaws in the system or bureaucracy of Israel are indications that the Jewish people's self-determination is fundamentally incorrect. That if Zionism can not achieve perfection, then it has no right to exist. That if Zionism were conceptually morally achievable, it could and would be put into perfect practice.

Second, that Zionists themselves are moral failures in their inability to create a perfect society. That Zionists are inherently anti-semitic -- that is hostile and prejudiced towards the Jewish people. That Zionists themselves have an evil intent towards Jews.


Allow me to respond by saying, first that no country in the world is expected to achieve perfection as a condition of their right to self-determination. There is no country in the world with a perfect human rights record or a perfect society. Every one is flawed. Every one has people who slip through the cracks. Canada has an atrocious record with respect to our First Nations peoples. Japan has incredibly high rates of suicide. The US has increasing polarization of race and religious groups. As examples.

You are holding Israel to impossible standards and then applying malicious intent to her failure to achieve those impossibly high standards -- and applying that malicious intent to her people. You are using your invented malicious intent to deny the right of the Jewish people to national self-determination.

Your use of the term "Zionist" gives you away. There is no reason to use that term when discussing flaws in the government of Israel. You should, correctly, just use the term "Israel". After all, if you are simply making a valid criticism of Israel, or its government, why wouldn't you use that term?

I agree - every country in the world has issues of class, poverty, slipping through the cracks and singling out Israel as being some how unique in this matter is pretty blatently unfair. I won't go into some of US's problems but there the same - minorities, veterans, etc. It's no different and I'm sure the UK is the same. I also don't see how it relates to Zionism exactly.

 

[SAYIT]

Challenger

90% of the Holocaust survivors who live in Israel are receiving adequate care and assistance from the government or from non-government organizations. 10% seem to have slipped through the cracks of the bureaucracy and appear to require both recognition and additional assistance. We might argue that the criteria for assistance is set too high (though you incorrectly said that proof was required -- its not -- it done by interview and depends on the extent of the persecution suffered). One might even argue that there was not a single Jew alive in Europe of the time of the Shoah who was not persecuted and thus even more people deserve compensation than those who are currently registered.

All these things can be discussed, and we will probably find a high rate of agreement.

However, your posts, including your OP and many of the media reports you linked to, are not designed to discuss flaws in the system of Israel's law. They were meant to villify Israel and particularily the concept of Zionism, as in the right of the Jewish people to a national self-determination.

You appear to be trying to make two points, above and beyond the simple idea that 10% of Israel's Holocaust survivors are not receiving adequate assistance.

First, that Zionism is a failure -- that flaws in the system or bureaucracy of Israel are indications that the Jewish people's self-determination is fundamentally incorrect. That if Zionism can not achieve perfection, then it has no right to exist. That if Zionism were conceptually morally achievable, it could and would be put into perfect practice.

Second, that Zionists themselves are moral failures in their inability to create a perfect society. That Zionists are inherently anti-semitic -- that is hostile and prejudiced towards the Jewish people. That Zionists themselves have an evil intent towards Jews.


Allow me to respond by saying, first that no country in the world is expected to achieve perfection as a condition of their right to self-determination. There is no country in the world with a perfect human rights record or a perfect society. Every one is flawed. Every one has people who slip through the cracks. Canada has an atrocious record with respect to our First Nations peoples. Japan has incredibly high rates of suicide. The US has increasing polarization of race and religious groups. As examples.

You are holding Israel to impossible standards and then applying malicious intent to her failure to achieve those impossibly high standards -- and applying that malicious intent to her people. You are using your invented malicious intent to deny the right of the Jewish people to national self-determination.

Your use of the term "Zionist" gives you away. There is no reason to use that term when discussing flaws in the government of Israel. You should, correctly, just use the term "Israel". After all, if you are simply making a valid criticism of Israel, or its government, why wouldn't you use that term?

I agree - every country in the world has issues of class, poverty, slipping through the cracks and singling out Israel as being some how unique in this matter is pretty blatently unfair. I won't go into some of US's problems but there the same - minorities, veterans, etc. It's no different and I'm sure the UK is the same. I also don't see how it relates to Zionism exactly.

Obviously it doesn't. It's just a typical anti-Semitic screed from a card-carrying member of the I-HATE-JEWS cabal.
Not one of them gives a rat's ass about the plight of those hapless Arab "refugees" beyond their value as ammunition against the hated Joooo and they care even less about the plight of some Holocaust survivors in Israel.

 

[Challenger]

Not a new phenomenon for the Zionist paradise

2015 189,000 Holocaust Survivors Are Living in Israel, 24% Below the Poverty Line

2014 50,000 Holocaust survivors in Israel living in poverty, report finds

2012 Holocaust survivors struggling to make ends meet in Israel

Seems this story emerges every year, but I only found out because of Channel 4's documentary, however it's never been a secret in Israel; this is a national disgrace.

The debate over Holocaust survivors living in poverty | i24news - See beyond

 

[Challenger]

I agree - every country in the world has issues of class, poverty, slipping through the cracks and singling out Israel as being some how unique in this matter is pretty blatently unfair. I won't go into some of US's problems but there the same - minorities, veterans, etc. It's no different and I'm sure the UK is the same. I also don't see how it relates to Zionism exactly.

It's not about class, poverty, slipping through cracks, etc. I'm pointing out the fact that Zionist Israel, the so called final refuge of the Jewish people, treats Jewish Holocaust survivors like dirt and has openly been doing so for years, bureaucratic bungling cannot be an excuse in this instance unless it's just a cynical attempt at deflection.

Zionist Israel brings up the Holocaust and Jewish persecution whenever it suits it's political agenda. This scandal, if nothing else, points out the monumental hypocrisy of not only it's govermnent but most Zionist Israelis and the Hasbara trolls here (see post #43, et al.).

 

[Challenger]

90% of the Holocaust survivors who live in Israel are receiving adequate care and assistance from the government or from non-government organizations. 10% seem to have slipped through the cracks of the bureaucracy and appear to require both recognition and additional assistance...

Channel 4 and other articles disagree with you. 45,000 out of a total of 189,000 is 24% not 10% also of those, presumably including those who gat “help”, “Last year 40% of Israeli Holocaust survivors admitted they could not afford to live in dignity.” Clearly the “help” is not enough.

...(though you incorrectly said that proof was required -- its not -- it done by interview and depends on the extent of the persecution suffered)...

“A new law also granted equal treatment to those who had immigrated to Israel after 1953 – but only if they had been in Nazi camps or ghettos. It left many trying to prove truths they have no evidence of.” Harrowing story of the Holocaust survivors still fighting for a dignified life

However, your posts, including your OP and many of the media reports you linked to, are not designed to discuss flaws in the system of Israel's law. They were meant to villify Israel and particularily the concept of Zionism...

Didn’t look like it to me. This is a national disgrace for the place founded by and on Zionist ideology, supposedly the "refuge for all Jewish people". If Zionist Israel, of all places, can allow this to go on for years, it deserves any vilification it gets.

You appear to be trying to make two points, above and beyond the simple idea that 10% of Israel's Holocaust survivors are not receiving adequate assistance...

On the contrary, I’m highlighting a national disgrace and the fact that Zionism is inherently anti-Semitic. No-one expects any nation to be perfect, that’s just a straw-man argument. However what you should be able to expect from the so called “final refuge for Jewish people”, is a degree of basic humanity, apparently sadly lacking in Zionist Israel. The alleviation of the continuing suffering of Holocaust survivors, should be the top priority for a “Jewish State” not something to be swept under the carpet and tolerated for years.

You are holding Israel to impossible standards and then applying malicious intent to her failure to achieve those impossibly high standards -- and applying that malicious intent to her people. You are using your invented malicious intent to deny the right of the Jewish people to national self-determination.

I’m holding Zionist Israel to the minimum standard it should expect for itself and its Jewish citizens in respect of Jewish Holocaust survivors. Accusing me of "malicious intent" instead of addressing the subject merely highlights the gap between Zionist pronouncements, and Zionist intentions and more importantly, actions.You have clearly failed to grasp just how angry I am about this.

Your use of the term "Zionist" gives you away. There is no reason to use that term when discussing flaws in the government of Israel. You should, correctly, just use the term "Israel". After all, if you are simply making a valid criticism of Israel, or its government, why wouldn't you use that term?

I’ve consistently used the term “Zionist Israel” since I joined the forum and even before that. I personally find it a more accurate descriptive of the regime/ideological base I’m talking about, like: “Communist Russia” or “Nazi Germany”. Likewise, I don’t use the word “Jew” because it: a) has pejorative connotations and b) it can imply a non-existent ethnicity, where “Judean”(ethnicity) or “Jewish”(religion) would be both more appropriate and accurate.

 

[Shusha]

However what you should be able to expect from the so called “final refuge for Jewish people”, is a degree of basic humanity, apparently sadly lacking in Zionist Israel.

So, Israel is lacking in basic humanity because MOST of its Holocaust survivors receive government and non-government aide but some still live under the poverty line. And you feel that this is a fair criteria for determining what "basic humanity" of a people and a nation is and that you apply it equally to all peoples and all nations.



The real issue here is determining who is eligible for benefits. Realistically, every single Jew alive in Europe of the times experienced persecution and a huge percentage of Israel's population also did in other times and places. Shall they all receive compensation? Is that possible?

So, along the continuum between persecution which all experienced and being nearly killed in a concentration camp, who, do you think, should be eligible for benefits?

 

[Coyote]

I agree - every country in the world has issues of class, poverty, slipping through the cracks and singling out Israel as being some how unique in this matter is pretty blatently unfair. I won't go into some of US's problems but there the same - minorities, veterans, etc. It's no different and I'm sure the UK is the same. I also don't see how it relates to Zionism exactly.

It's not about class, poverty, slipping through cracks, etc. I'm pointing out the fact that Zionist Israel, the so called final refuge of the Jewish people, treats Jewish Holocaust survivors like dirt and has openly been doing so for years, bureaucratic bungling cannot be an excuse in this instance unless it's just a cynical attempt at deflection.

Zionist Israel brings up the Holocaust and Jewish persecution whenever it suits it's political agenda. This scandal, if nothing else, points out the monumental hypocrisy of not only it's govermnent but most Zionist Israelis and the Hasbara trolls here (see post #43, et al.).

I think bureaucratic bungling and red tape can have a bit to do with it. We have similar issues with our veterans and veterans should never be the ones ignored or neglected imo but I don't think it's deliberate, just gross mismanagement and incompetence and out-dated systems.

 

[docmauser1]

It's not about class, poverty, slipping through cracks, etc. I'm pointing out the fact that Zionist Israel, the so called final refuge of the Jewish people, treats Jewish Holocaust survivors like dirt and has openly been doing so for years, bureaucratic bungling cannot be an excuse in this instance unless it's just a cynical attempt at deflection.
Zionist Israel brings up the Holocaust and Jewish persecution whenever it suits it's political agenda. This scandal, if nothing else, points out the monumental hypocrisy of not only it's govermnent but most Zionist Israelis and the Hasbara trolls here (see post #43, et al.).

Our hilarious-righteous challenger is thereby advised to petition the israeli gubmint on the issue, of course.

 

[Challenger]

I agree - every country in the world has issues of class, poverty, slipping through the cracks and singling out Israel as being some how unique in this matter is pretty blatently unfair. I won't go into some of US's problems but there the same - minorities, veterans, etc. It's no different and I'm sure the UK is the same. I also don't see how it relates to Zionism exactly.

It's not about class, poverty, slipping through cracks, etc. I'm pointing out the fact that Zionist Israel, the so called final refuge of the Jewish people, treats Jewish Holocaust survivors like dirt and has openly been doing so for years, bureaucratic bungling cannot be an excuse in this instance unless it's just a cynical attempt at deflection.

Zionist Israel brings up the Holocaust and Jewish persecution whenever it suits it's political agenda. This scandal, if nothing else, points out the monumental hypocrisy of not only it's govermnent but most Zionist Israelis and the Hasbara trolls here (see post #43, et al.).

I think bureaucratic bungling and red tape can have a bit to do with it. We have similar issues with our veterans and veterans should never be the ones ignored or neglected imo but I don't think it's deliberate, just gross mismanagement and incompetence and out-dated systems.

When it's highlighted every year since the 1990's, given the exceptional nature of the Holocaust to Jewish people, don't you think given the German reparations and the huge American aid and subsidies, loan guarentees etc. This would be a priority for Zionist Israel, if only as a PR exercise?

Hypothetical: Germany refused to pay reparations to Israel but decided it would deal with Holocaust survivors on an individual basis, and this happened as a result. Would everyone (especially Zionist Israel) just sit back and say, "Oh, it's just gross mismanagement and incompetence and out-dated systems."?

 

[Challenger]

The real issue here is determining who is eligible for benefits.

The real issue here is eradicating the suffering of Holocaust Survivors, not quibbling about "eligability."

 

[Shusha]

The real issue here is determining who is eligible for benefits.

The real issue here is eradicating the suffering of Holocaust Survivors, not quibbling about "eligability."

But again, EVERY JEW in Europe of the time is a Holocaust Survivor.

Do you think Germany would be willing to pay lifelong, significant benefits to all Jews? Do you think they should? Why or why not?

 

[Challenger]

The real issue here is determining who is eligible for benefits.

The real issue here is eradicating the suffering of Holocaust Survivors, not quibbling about "eligability."

But again, EVERY JEW in Europe of the time is a Holocaust Survivor.

Do you think Germany would be willing to pay lifelong, significant benefits to all Jews? Do you think they should? Why or why not?

Nice attempt to deflect, but this is still about Holocaust survivors in Zionist Israel and their shameful treatment by their own government and fellow citizens.

 

[Shusha]

Deflection? Hardly. How can we alleviate the suffering of the Holocaust Survivors (all Jews) if we don't identify who they are?

Do you agree that all Jews should receive benefits from Germany? Or Israel? Or the global community?