Yitzhak Rabin, man of peace and moderation

[SLClemens]

I know this is a bit late, but I thought it would be nice to bring up the memory of Yitzhak Rabin and the efforts at peace for which he died. By no means do I think he was perfect, yet it seems that so many of the positive steps Israel has taken were under his guidance, and so many of the disastrous ones were in his absence. I hate to say it, but looking at the past eight years, I think his assassin won.

On a positive note, however, over 100,000 - a quarter the population of Tel Aviv - showed up for his memorial last week. People seeking peace on all sides of the Israel-Palestine dispute should take great encouragement from this.

 

[FORD]

The Rabin assassination was similar to the JFK, RFK, and MLK hits of the 60's. It was an "inside job" designed to prevent the very future that Rabin was working so hard to create. I have no doubt that he, Arafat, and President Clinton would have brought peace to the region. And that was intolerable for those who profit from the continued bloody chaos in the region. And by "profit" I don't neccessarily mean by financial means alone.

 

[ajwps]

Yitzhak Rabin was a tragedy for Israel and any peaceful solution. Those that profit from continued war and bloodshed were bolstered by Rabin and Barak's 'peace' agreements with the Arabs. These Islamics who used the weak minded Rabin were never interested in any peace, a land of their own but more simply the death of Israel and the Jewish people.

This is a fact of life..... Israel must elect a leader who is a lion instead of a sheep.

http://info.jpost.com/C003/Supplements/FSB/030912/art.09.html

PAUL JOHNSON:
---------------------------------------------------------
Settlements for suicides

I never believed in the Oslo Accords and it is now clear they have been a failure, merely exacerbating the conflict between Israelis and Arabs. Negotiations are pointless unless both sides want a solution. The Israelis do. The Arabs do not.

The Israelis want a place in the Middle East acknowledged by the Arabs as their historical right. The Arabs will not accord Israel such a place, and their idea of an agreement is one which furthers their ultimate aim of defeating the Israeli armed forces, extinguishing Israel as a state and exterminating its citizens.

No doubt millions of ordinary Arabs would be happy with a peace which left Israel intact, but their leaders have always looked for a "final solution."

Arab terrorism has so far succeeded in the sense that is has led the West to put pressure on Israel to negotiate - and negotiations have always worked against Israel's security interests.

I suggest that Israel reverse the process. Every time the terrorists stage a suicide bombing which kills Israeli citizens, the Israeli authorities should allow another settlement to establish itself in the disputed territories. This form of punishment is likely to be even more effective than targeting terrorist leaders.

Important though it is to bring those who plan mass killing of the innocent to justice, it is still more important to demonstrate to the Arab people that terrorism, far from weakening Israel, will expand its borders and deepen its roots.

The writer is a historian and essayist.

 

[SLClemens]

I certainly would't call the man who led the IDF in the Six-Days' War and authorized the raid on Entebbe "weak minded." Most importantly of all, he was someone the international community could respect, as opposed to the war criminal leading a counter-productive expansionist Likud agenda now. Thankfully recent polling shows that more Israelis are losing faith with his agenda.

 

[ajwps]

You state:

"I certainly would't call the man who led the IDF in the Six-Days' War and authorized the raid on Entebbe "weak minded." Most importantly of all, he was someone the international community could respect, as opposed to the war criminal leading a counter-productive expansionist Likud agenda now. Thankfully recent polling shows that more Israelis are losing faith with his agenda."

Point 1) The former powerful and brilliant leader of the IDF became in time a weak Israeli Priminister who was fooled by a little terrorist into giving away Israel. For some unknown reason, the same mental impotence seems to appear in what was once great warriors in the IDF, i.e., Barak, Netanyahu and Sharon.

For reasons unknown, this little Arab corrupt terrorist turned down the offer of a land for his people and from a new Arab land advantage have finished off Israel and the Jewish people remaining on the remaining small sliver of land with the Med sea behind them. What do you think caused this apparent tactical error for which Arafat now kicks himself in his own buttox? No wonder Israel does not terminate this bearded Parkinson ridden Arab. He like Hitler is the best enemy leader Israel and the Jewish people have going for them.

Point 2) The Likud agenda has also fallen into the same trap under Sharon's leadership. Your polls are very misleading as we have seen the perception that PM Sharon was a strong man who promised to remove the constant threat from the unwanted guests of Israel and won the popular vote for himself and the Likud. The group known as 'shalom achshav' or peace now movment is currently little more than a shadow of those Israelis who wanted commit national suicide.

Point 3) If only Likud would support a strong leader and rid itself of inept and puny leaders like the man you and the Muslim terrorists call a war criminal, then and only then will Israel become free from the continuous OSLO war of agression still in place from Rabin and later Barak. If the Arabs (who call themselves Palestinians) are unhappy in the independent country of Israel, then they have only two alternatives. One, the Arabs can wage a war against Israel and drive the Jewish people into the Med sea or in the alternative pack their rags and leave Israel to anywhere they feel unoppressed and no longer subjugated.

Point 4) For some unknown reason, this little piece of land called Israel and a few thousand men and women fought off millions of well trained Arab armies that came to destroy them. What are the odds that this could happen so many times?

You seem to find such a large poll group of a few hundred people asked loaded questions which somehow extrapolates into a perceived will of the people. In the end, any valid Israeli polls will be demonstrated at the polls during the next election. As for the European nation polls being valid, it seems that the people of Europe for the most part do not agree with their own media's published erroneous polls.

There was a Jewish prophet named Ezekiel who thousands of years ago seemed to be talking about today's news, originally in Hebrew (translated into English). So far the Jewish prophets have not had one miss as to this day.

Ezekiel 38

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, when the Nations shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord G-D, that My fury shall arise up in My nostrils.

19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken: Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 so that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep upon the ground, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at My presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the L-rd G-D; every man's sword shall be against his brother.

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will cause to rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many peoples that are with him, an overflowing shower, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

23 Thus will I magnify Myself, and sanctify Myself, and I will make Myself known in the eyes of many nations; and they shall know that I am the L-RD.

It does seem that your trusted polls show the Nations are now rising up condemning Israel as the single country that is the greatest threat to world peace.

The WMDs that seem to be a mirage are said to consist of pestilence (germ warfare), with fire, brimstone and hailstones on the same list.

But again, these words are only a translation of a man from thousands of years ago and have no basis in today's world.

__________________
"To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, 'Our country, right or wrong,' and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?"

Not really. You might say it in another way. "To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, 'Our country, is right not wrong, and urge on the little war to protect our own population from the envy and vengence of Islam. Have you not perceived that phrase is a most honorable aim of this great nation?"

 

[SLClemens]

"CBS News Correspondent Robert Berger reports a new poll shows Sharon's approval rating has dropped to just 34 percent, at least in part because of the lack of progress with the Palestinians."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/17/world/main584011.shtml

 

[ajwps]

"CBS News Correspondent Robert Berger reports a new poll shows Sharon's approval rating has dropped to just 34 percent, at least in part because of the lack of progress with the Palestinians."

SLC remember what I said about polls and the reality of an election which is the ultimate poll. Sharon has truly lost a great deal of public support because of his weakness and willingness to give Israel to these foreign nomadic Arabs.

The following is a January, 2003 election poll which gives, at least in Jan of this year, the Israeli public opinion of Sharon. If Sharon continues to demonstrate the reversal of his promises when he was elected, another much stronger Rosh Memshalah (Priminister) will be elected as the Israelis are sick and tired of being killed in the streets and turning this land now of milk and honey into another Beirut.

Israel does not have quite the same type of elections that we are familiar with in the United States. The Priminister of Israel must maintain a majority coalition to keep his job or lose by a lack of public confidence. In the US, we can vote for a president and any senator or congress person running in our own states.

The following is the latest valid poll in 2003.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections16/eng/results/regions.asp

 

[clyde]

I feel Ariel Sharon has been too soft against the Palistinians,though I can't entirely blame him since he answers mostly to Washington.I would like to see everytime a Palistinian suicide bomber kills innocent Israeli's and Israel finds out who committed this crime,instead of just bulldozing their house,they should also kill the Suicide bombers family.This would put an end to the killing of innocent Israeli's.
I also feel whenever Israel goes after and kills a militant and innocent Palistinians are killed,they should not apologize to the Palistinians or to the World.After all whenever a Palisinian kills an Israeli they don't apologize.
I think Israel needs to give the Palistinians a taste of their own medicine,meaning.They need to go on the offensive more often,and not react or be on the defensive and retaliate.

Clyde

 

[ajwps]

Clyde I don't feel that PM Sharon is too soft on the Arabs in Israel, he has been responding as a defeated warrior. He shows no regard for Israelis as he releases the convicted murders to go right out and kill again.

The Arabs kidnap civilians, torture and murder them and the nations seem to find this perfectly normal. But if Israel puts up a wall to protect their children from the cowardly ambushes and bombs, then the world finds the Jewish people guilty of oppression.

The Jewish people try not to act like the beasts that kill them indiscriminately. The German Nazi soldiers in WW2 responded to having one of their own killed by partizans by placing whole villages into a building and lighting it on fire. Then raising the entire city so that no trace of it remains.

Israel could easily act like the Muslim Arabs living in Israel. The world of nations would scream and howl with the beastiality of the Jewish people. Israel is like a giant continually being poked by midgets with pointed sticks. (Unfortuantely human beings are being killed by these beasts).

The day will come when either Israel or the Creator of the univese will reek vengence on this evill people whom many on this thread seem to think are just like every non-Islam on earth.

As in the past 4000 years of history, those that come against Israel and the Jewish people become extinct. The people of Israel live like these interloppers belong on the land of Israel. For ignoring the reality of life in Israel, many of the living souls of Israel will be extinguished but a remnant will repopulate the land without any Arab remaining on the land of Israel.

May that day come soon and in our time.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by ajwps
Clyde I don't feel that PM Sharon is too soft on the Arabs in Israel, he has been responding as a defeated warrior. He shows no regard for Israelis as he releases the convicted murders to go right out and kill again.

The Arabs kidnap civilians, torture and murder them and the nations seem to find this perfectly normal. But if Israel puts up a wall to protect their children from the cowardly ambushes and bombs, then the world finds the Jewish people guilty of oppression.

The Jewish people try not to act like the beasts that kill them indiscriminately. The German Nazi soldiers in WW2 responded to having one of their own killed by partizans by placing whole villages into a building and lighting it on fire. Then raising the entire city so that no trace of it remains.

Israel could easily act like the Muslim Arabs living in Israel. The world of nations would scream and howl with the beastiality of the Jewish people. Israel is like a giant continually being poked by midgets with pointed sticks. (Unfortuantely human beings are being killed by these beasts).

The day will come when either Israel or the Creator of the univese will reek vengence on this evill people whom many on this thread seem to think are just like every non-Islam on earth.

As in the past 4000 years of history, those that come against Israel and the Jewish people become extinct. The people of Israel live like these interloppers belong on the land of Israel. For ignoring the reality of life in Israel, many of the living souls of Israel will be extinguished but a remnant will repopulate the land without any Arab remaining on the land of Israel.

May that day come soon and in our time.

Errr... or both sides can realize that two wrongs don't make a right and just end this thing as decent human beings. Maybe that's just my good old fashion Canadian optimism kicking in.

How can it be that I have friends who are both Jewish and Muslim and they don't kill each other and, perish the thought, get along? Hmm....

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock

"Errr... or both sides can realize that two wrongs don't make a right and just end this thing as decent human beings. Maybe that's just my good old fashion Canadian optimism kicking in.

How can it be that I have friends who are both Jewish and Muslim and they don't kill each other and, perish the thought, get along? Hmm...."

Isaac you take it for granted that humanity consists of 'decent' human beings. As a cynic, I take with rare exception, decent human beings are present in a plasma of illusion.

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, only the shadow knows."

The decay of decency in the modern age, the rebellion against law and good faith, the treatment of human beings as things, as the mere instruments of power and ambition, is without a doubt the consequence of the decay of the belief in man as something more than an animal animated by highly conditioned reflexes and chemical reactions. For, unless man is something more than that, he has no rights that anyone is bound to respect, and there are no limitations upon his conduct which he is bound to obey.

ATTRIBUTION: Walter Lippmann

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by ajwps
Originally posted by Isaac Brock

"Errr... or both sides can realize that two wrongs don't make a right and just end this thing as decent human beings. Maybe that's just my good old fashion Canadian optimism kicking in.

How can it be that I have friends who are both Jewish and Muslim and they don't kill each other and, perish the thought, get along? Hmm...."

Isaac you take it for granted that humanity consists of 'decent' human beings. As a cynic, I take with rare exception, decent human beings are present in a plasma of illusion.

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, only the shadow knows."

I surely hope your post doesn't mean what i'm interpretting it to say. If you are suggesting that my friends are nothing more than wolves in sheep's clothing, I dare say you are bordering on slander.

My friend from Macau, a Chinese buddhist and great woman, once told me something along the lines of:

"It is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways"

Evil is fear personified. Fear is in the hearts of all men, but it does not favour race, colour or creed, but rather in the desire and conscience of each man. As to is love. It is not battleground for the divine, but a battle within each and every one of ourselves.

Arabs and Jews have gotten along for many centuries before the 20th century. So say that evil is inherint in a given person or religions is wrong. To be blunt, and I apologize as I do not wish to give you offense, but the last thing the middle east needs now is cynics. Cynics who mistrust the other side are what got Israel and Palestine into this mess. It is optimists such as the late Rabin that will get us out.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock

Evil is fear personified. Fear is in the hearts of all men, but it does not favour race, colour or creed, but rather in the desire and conscience of each man. As to is love. It is not battleground for the divine, but a battle within each and every one of ourselves.

I did not mean to impugn your friends and if I have done so I do apologize. But I must respectfully disagree with their definition of evil being fear in the hearts of men nor is it a battle within each person.

My understandings of good and evil are actually moral alternative choices. Concrete negative prohibitions and positive directives have been carved out for mankind that has now been available to most of the world of for many eons.

Like in Quantum Mechanics (theories of the physical nature of the universe), alternate paths are available to men's freewill available to each human being. Instead of a lure to good or evil there is only one's personal choice with the full knowledge of consequences of either of these alternative choices.

Please don't misunderstand me that there is any predetermination in the final end of these two alternative paths as this would lead to no real choice for the individual.

To equate Arabs and Israelis with all following one path or another is in reality basic religious tenets which guide each man and woman of each religion to take the path they individually choose but not because they are lured either way.

By one's actions their choice to the right or left can be determined. In the group of choices of one or the other, the path chosen by the majority determines the good or evil in their meandering in this short span of time in a timeless singularity of reality.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by ajwps
Originally posted by Isaac Brock



I did not mean to impugn your friends and if I have done so I do apologize. But I must respectfully disagree with their definition of evil being fear in the hearts of men nor is it a battle within each person.

My understandings of good and evil are actually moral alternative choices. Concrete negative prohibitions and positive directives have been carved out for mankind that has now been available to most of the world of for many eons.

Like in Quantum Mechanics (theories of the physical nature of the universe), alternate paths are available to men's freewill available to each human being. Instead of a lure to good or evil there is only one's personal choice with the full knowledge of consequences of either of these alternative choices.

Please don't misunderstand me that there is any predetermination in the final end of these two alternative paths as this would lead to no real choice for the individual.

To equate Arabs and Israelis with all following one path or another is in reality basic religious tenets which guide each man and woman of each religion to take the path they individually choose but not because they are lured either way.

By one's actions their choice to the right or left can be determined. In the group of choices of one or the other, the path chosen by the majority determines the good or evil in their meandering in this short span of time in a timeless singularity of reality.

Apologies! I must had miscontrued your former post.

Now, to not make the same mistake twice I have reread you post several times and believe it or not, and i'm as surprise as you are, that we're arguing the same point morality speaking from two different theorcatic standpoints and applying it differently to the Isreali/Palestinian context.

I do not believe in the absolutes of a person in terms of good and evil. In fact I don't believe it absolute good or evil at all, but can respect that you do. I believe that every act a man/woman can do can either promote love or fear and fate, but it differing degrees as well. Using the quantum mechanics example and taking it a bit further, think of an event horizon. At that horizon there are a multitude of dimensions or realities stemming from that point, not just two absolute ones.

That being said I think every person have the capacity within them selves to choose their acts, but that no act is absolute within itself. This is why I believe "good" people sin and "sinners" can do good or they both can simply do nothing at all.

In Israeli/Arab context, I think the worse thing that they can do in just to apathetic to the situation. I believe cycnicism on such an important thing has done a lot a damage already. What it really needed is a leap of faith by both sides to bridge what seems like a terribly big gap. There are people who do try to do that, Rabin certainly was one of them. There needs to be more patriots for peace of his quality.

The solution to their crisis will not be found in the US, Europe, Russia or anywhere except in the hearts and minds of each side. But you're right it's up to them to make their choice.

 

[ajwps]

Original post by Isaac

"That being said I think every person have the capacity within them selves to choose their acts, but that no act is absolute within itself. This is why I believe "good" people sin and "sinners" can do good or they both can simply do nothing at all."

I too agree that sinners can do some good and vice versa with the proviso that in any final outcome, the scales are tilted to one side or the other. As you say, there are those who do nothing and there are those who choose the course of pure evil and those who go the path of pure good. (rare indeed)

"In Israeli/Arab context, I think the worse thing that they can do in just too apathetic to the situation. I believe cynicism on such an important thing has done a lot of damage already. What it really needed is a leap of faith by both sides to bridge what seems like a terribly big gap. There are people who do try to do that, Rabin certainly was one of them. There needs to be more patriots for peace of his quality."

The solution to their crisis will not be found in the US, Europe, Russia or anywhere except in the hearts and minds of each side. But you're right it's up to them to make their choice."

Here I must disagree with you concerning the Israel/Arab goals. Unfortunately cynicism of current and previous attempts to end this constant state of bloodshed gives rise to a continuation of the lack of any stalemate.

If one understands the real dynamics being played out in Israel, there are too many outside forces that desire the continued state of warfare which they feel is the only way that a war against Israel can be waged and won. They will not have another frontal attack against Israel as they know with certainty of another devastating and embarrassing loss of people and land.

In my humble opinion, no amount of concessions or agreements can be made with the local Arab pawns in this game while the main players (surrounding Islamic countries) in this game of live chess have no intention of finding a lasting peace.

Once Israel and the rest of the world understand this fact by some dramatic or claticlismic event occurring, the longer bloodshed and death will continue.

I hate to continue being cynical but by going back to WW2 seems appropriate. No signed concessions (Lord Chamberlain) and now by Arafat did or will avert the continued war footing course.

In universal nature, nothing seems to continue in a constant status of chaos forever but everything including the Arab/Israel conflict will eventually return to a state of equilibrium.

Oil and water will never mix without separating. But the separation in this case must be so that to avoid continued conflict that separation will have to have a safe distance between the two peoples.

 

[mwbuccs]

Originally posted by SLClemens
I know this is a bit late, but I thought it would be nice to bring up the memory of Yitzhak Rabin and the efforts at peace for which he died. By no means do I think he was perfect, yet it seems that so many of the positive steps Israel has taken were under his guidance, and so many of the disastrous ones were in his absence. I hate to say it, but looking at the past eight years, I think his assassin won.

On a positive note, however, over 100,000 - a quarter the population of Tel Aviv - showed up for his memorial last week. People seeking peace on all sides of the Israel-Palestine dispute should take great encouragement from this.

the mossad murdered him. nice people...

 

[theliq]

I know this is a bit late, but I thought it would be nice to bring up the memory of Yitzhak Rabin and the efforts at peace for which he died. By no means do I think he was perfect, yet it seems that so many of the positive steps Israel has taken were under his guidance, and so many of the disastrous ones were in his absence. I hate to say it, but looking at the past eight years, I think his assassin won.

On a positive note, however, over 100,000 - a quarter the population of Tel Aviv - showed up for his memorial last week. People seeking peace on all sides of the Israel-Palestine dispute should take great encouragement from this.

He surely was......whilst we are on the subject of Dead Israeli Prime Ministers today,Yitzhak was the complete opposite of that WRETCH BEGIN

 

[Lipush]

Yitzhak Rabin was a classic example of something which is rare finding in Israel today- a common, sane, untraitorous left. He pulled many objectors because some of his ideas were against common left- shaking hands with Arafat, giving up the Gola Heights. But he did those things because unlike today's leftists, he truly believed those steps will bring peace. Had he known the steps were only part of the "Phases plan" to take all of Israel by Palestinians, he would have said million times "Sorry" and would have tried to fix that. Unlike the common left today, that after turning both cheeks, will also turn their butts to be kicked.

Rabin would have never let people like Alan get away with hunger striking. His policy towards bloodthirsty terrorists was tougher than these days. "Break their arms and legs", he told soldiers when facing stone-throwers. "A Palestinian state in the West Bank will be Israel's disaster"- he was honest.

IF he was alive today, he would have been shocked to see what the Israel left hade done since the 90's. Sadly, the leadership currently lost all directions and cannot call itself "respectable right" either.

So now we're stuck.