Yellow Ribbons Are For Cowards.

[Johnney]

You dumbass!

shame on me!

 

[sagegirl]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2005/02/24/cstillwell.DTL

Kathianne: The article was long....I read the whole thing, and it represented to me a long held truth. There are always going to be people who are absolutely sure they have all the answers and they are usually a fringe element, most of us fit somewhere in between. I am not right on all the issues, I am opinionated on most. I think there is a certain resignation that living brings of disappointment and distraction, it changes and challenges our perspective and our point of view. I can honestly say that my alienation comes not from the rep/dem, lib/cons polarities that have been used to corral us into groups, what sets me apart from most of you is that I tend to take issues on one at a time. This frees me from having any allegiance to any specific "platform" and allows me to evaluate an issue on its merits while still acknowledging that everything relates to everything else.
This article was so clearly one sided that for me it represented only a person of extreme bias, previously on the left and I would assume radically left by the nature of the comments. This person is as surely right now as he was left then (no pun intended). Neither side has claim to the best solutions or the higher moral ground. Anyone who claims it as a doctrine of the right, or left, serves their own purposes.
I am getting a little set in my ways to switch horses. I have too much skepticism, and enough experience to back it up, to trust the system. It serves a particular purpose for some and pacifies the rest. I myself have the confidence to question authority and demand honesty, integrity, responsibility, morality and compassion from our elected officials, who way too often fail us. I do hold them to a higher level of performance and they swear to uphold that duty. So, I doubt that I will ever swing right.
I do not disregard the opinions of people who can explain the basic tenants
and logic of their positions, but too often I think they are unable to back up their thoughts without resorting to rhetoric and the words of others.

 

[Annie]

Sagegirl, that was the most thought out response you have given, with a least a hint that you might not always be 'listening', which can equally be said for me:

I am getting a little set in my ways to switch horses. I have too much skepticism, and enough experience to back it up, to trust the system.

, although for me it would be 'trust one side of the political spectrum or the other.

Here is where I'm sorry to say, you tend to get my dander up:

what sets me apart from most of you is that I tend to take issues on one at a time.

I must ask you, who doesn't? Why the need to see yourself as 'special', 'different', or darest I say it, 'above' the rest of us?

Speaking for myself, I have many disagreements with either side of the political spectrum, if you've missed those posts, well you shouldn't be making assumptions and post in a condescending manner or eventually someone is going to come back at you.

You will post however you like, I will too. It would be nice if we could discuss the issue, without putting down or making assumptions about those that disagree with us.

 

[sagegirl]

Sagegirl, that was the most thought out response you have given, with a least a hint that you might not always be 'listening', which can equally be said for me:

, although for me it would be 'trust one side of the political spectrum or the other.

Here is where I'm sorry to say, you tend to get my dander up:
I must ask you, who doesn't? Why the need to see yourself as 'special', 'different', or darest I say it, 'above' the rest of us?

Speaking for myself, I have many disagreements with either side of the political spectrum, if you've missed those posts, well you shouldn't be making assumptions and post in a condescending manner or eventually someone is going to come back at you.

You will post however you like, I will too. It would be nice if we could discuss the issue, without putting down or making assumptions about those that disagree with us.

I couldnt agree more, I was speaking more to the article, which as I said seemed very biased. I got its point early on, the rest was overkill.
I am thinking about a thread on the very issues you have raised, what if any policies of the current administration do you disagree with ...mostly directed at those who support and voted for GW. I am serious, I did notice some disagreement with immigration policies during the post election discussions but I more often see near total support for his ideas, with strong disapproval of any opposing opinion. So you may have a chance there to directly adddress that issue and I will review your posts and take note in the future to better understand your point of view.
Im sorry for sounding like I think I am better or any more valid than anyone else, I just come across that way. I do take "crap" for my opinions, and I do not whine about it. I know any one of you is quite capable of putting me "in my place" and respect you all for it. I promise to stick around so you/me can keep having so much fun.

 

[Annie]

I promise to stick around so you/me can keep having so much fun.

Thank you, it would be pretty boring without some differing thoughts about!

I am thinking about a thread on the very issues you have raised, what if any policies of the current administration do you disagree with ...mostly directed at those who support and voted for GW.

Well do as you like, but I doubt that you will have a lot of response to: What do you disagree with GW about...tell all!

That would be bashing an administration that I for one, believe may well be on the way of securing us a safer world for future generations.

Now if you wish to put forward a thread on immigration and what the administrations plans have been, you might get more. Idea, the drivers' license bill just passed. that has something to hate for everyone, on more than one level.

 

[CSM]

Do you agree with Thomas Naughton? :nine:

No yellow ribbons here
By Thomas Naughton, Collegian columnist

http://www.dailycollegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/02/23/421beb6d96af4

February 23, 2005


Guilt can only weigh on a person's mind for so long before they crave the act of purgation; to get the weighty feelings of shame and responsibility out of the mind - or at least the guilty parties attempt to find some kind of peace if they cannot rid themselves of a screaming conscience that implicates and indicts its possessor.

That said, perhaps some readers will understand why my friends and I rip yellow ribbon "support the troops" magnets off of cars or wherever people have affixed them. By ripping off these ribbons, we find a way to deal with our guilt, as though with each ribbon swiped we take back a life that was taken by this senseless war started by our senseless president and those who support him.

I guess this is as good a rationalization for criminal behavior as any other. It is however, a crock.

I will never say, "support the troops." I don't believe in the validity of that statement. People say, "I don't support the war, I support the troops" as though you can actually separate the two. You cannot; the troops are a part of the war, they have become the war and there is no valid dissection of the two. Other people shout with glaring eyes that we should give up our politics, give up our political affiliations in favor of "just supporting the troops." I wish everything were that easy.

Notice that he only quotes "support the troops". It is obvious that he neither supports the troops or anything else for that matter...What makes him think he has to give up his politics?

What they really mean is that we should just give up our will, give up our identities, give up our voices to those in power. Perhaps that's just the way people aligned with the right wing choose to get rid of their guilt: blindness and ignorance.

Horse puckey. He sounds like he would rather subvert his will, identity and anything else to the first entity that comes along opposing the United States. I guess he means he would fight to retain his will and identity and the voice. Maybe there is something he believes in fighting for. The disturbing thing is, he looks down on those who fight for what THEY believe in because it is not what HE believes in.

I listen to talk radio very often. It's important to know who your enemies are. The pundits on the radio are the pinnacles of guiltless, shameless wonders, and I am jealous. It must feel good to believe without question, to benefit from the blind belief of young men and women who chose to join the armed forces, to sit in a radio studio in New York and admonish the public to give in like the troops, to just follow orders, to live as just a number that will soon be etched into a gravestone that no one will ever see.

So the troops have "given in" and are blind, live as just a number, and follow orders like numberless robots. Obviously, this person has no frikkin idea what the hell he is talking about. His first sentence says it all; those who do not think as he does are "the enemy." So much for freedom, eh?

I look into the cars of people with "support the troops" ribbons as I speed past, trying to find some trace of recognition on their face, recognition of their guilt and the fact that they have given up. I usually see nothing; just a mouth moving robotically, singing the pop hits of today or the contemporary country wine of fake cowboys who share a lot with George Bush: no shame.

Those who support the troops are also mindless idiots. What arrogance!

We say, "support the troops" so that we won't feel guilty about saying "no" to war. We reason that if we say that we support the troops, somehow we aren't monsters for not saying a word when the death tolls of U.S. soldiers climbed above 1,000. Those ribbons are yellow for a reason, they are not the mark of armed forces support, they are the mark of cowards.

I would love to have this guy meet THIS coward....anywhere... anytime. Of course he would always be unarmed as he has no brain.

Pundits on the radio advise their cowardly listeners to approach men and women in army uniforms and say "thank you." I cannot do that. Every time I pass a person in uniform I look long and hard at them and all I can think inside to say is "I'm so sorry." I want to apologize to them, to their families and to their friends. I feel sorry that we, the people, couldn't control our own government at the outset of this conflict when most of us knew deep inside that it was a mistake.

We the people can't control our own government??? It sure looks like this guy doesn't understand that we live in a democratic republic and that the people have choices. What he really means is that HE could not control the government and that HE cannot make everyone think as he does.

Where are we now? Are we in a better place? Is the world safer for democracy? No, it is not safer and we are not in a better place. In this war that we are fighting to somehow avenge the deaths of the Sept. 11 tragedy, we have amassed a field of body bags, the number of which almost matches the number killed in the terrorist attacks four years ago. Now, we stare at yet another request for barrels of money for this war by President Bush, while people in our own country search fruitlessly for jobs to feed their starving families, while every public school gets left behind, while our elderly are ensured an uncertain future of unpaid medical bills.

Of course we have to have the bit about the poor starving children and the elderly. He forget the millions of homeless. His math skills suck as well.

I guess we shouldn't think about those things though, right? We should just buy a yellow magnet and slap it on the butt of our car so we can sleep at night and just let our government do whatever they want. That's supporting the troops, right?

Yep.

Two years ago my friend Eric called me out of the blue after almost five years of silence between us. We were in a band together when we were teenagers and he had joined the army around the time I was graduating from high school. He had to join the army; he had a son to provide for in the grand tradition of many young members of the armed forces. He called me to tell me that he was going back to Iraq, against his will. He was so sad and angry and scared. He didn't say it, but I know he was calling to tell me that he might die. I didn't say it to him then, but I felt such overwhelming guilt that I couldn't do anything to keep him from going back.

He can read minds over the telephone...amazing. Maybe the reason he hasn't heard from Eric is because Eric realized what a jerk this guy was and CHOSE not to have anything further to do with this idiot.

I haven't heard from him since. I don't know if he's dead, and my guilt is alive and well. I hope that all of our family members in harm's way return alive. Until then, I can really honor their sacrifice by demanding that it finally comes to an end.

I could not let this pass without comment. I know it is old news now, but I just had to rebut the many outright lies and prejudices displayed in this article.

 

[Eightball]

Seems like the author's assumption is that the folks that use these magnets are doing it to basically support GWB, and then the troops or both equally.

I would suspicion that of these accused folks, many have relatives in the military too, and are encouraging others to join them in support of their mission, and support.

Defining a "right" war versus an "unjust" war in public opinion polling or even a majority versus a minority of support may not always be the right rationale.

I think that much of the debate here over the rightness of the Iraq war, may stem from one's opinion of imminent danger to the U.S..

Many believe that action taken in the Middle East is a way of preventing military action on our own shore or land. Possibly preventing a future 911 type scenario, by disarming/eliminating or weakening the groups, and their infra-structures to mount an attack.

Other's I believe think that Iraq's imminent danger was not imminent enough to justify the military commitment by the U.S..

Now if you throw in the Weapons of Mass Destruction issue into the frey, we have the "war opposing" group seeing that as the pre-text of imminent danger, and then the war is therefore unnecessary to U.S. security at home..i.e... couldn't find any sizable amounts posing a danger to humanity.

My gut feeling is that sooner or later, something horrendous was going to happen, stateside, again......and possibly, similar to the Twin Towers attack. It may have been a gas type of terrorist attack, similar to what happened in the Japanese subways some years ago, only more effective, and devastating.

Now, without the war in Iraq, how were things going to unfold in the Fertile Crescent? Would Lebanon be challenging Syrian control right now? Would Iranians be challenging their Mullah controlled government to the extent that they are? Would there be any pressure on surrounding countries to make changes towards representative government?

Now the last point is American lives. Many want these lives lost in Iraq, and Afghanistan to mean something. Many vocally say that these lives are uselessly lost, to the pain of those who who are relatives(parents/spouses/siblings) and support their love-one's commitment to the U.S. military and it's objectives.

Since WW2 there has been a Korea, a Vietnam, a Granada, a Panama, a Gulf One, and Iraq. Thousands have been lost since WW2.

No one desires a single American life lost. Not in just wars or unjust wars..........In just wars....men are heroes, in unjust wars.....men are "baby killers, and rapists". Sometimes just wars change to unjust wars, as public opinion ebbs and flows from positive to negative via press editorials, and accounts of ongoing and past conflicts.

It has been revealed recently, that Hitler had written some other pieces in the vain of "Mein Kamf", that indicated that he had plans to invade the U.S. This was well before we declared war on Germany and the Axis. Would we have been illegally-pre-emptive to have declared war on Germany before Pearl Harbor? In hindsight, it doesn't seem that way. For that matter, the only American lives lost to Germany before Pearl Harbor were numerous American citizens that volunteered in the R.A.F. as pilots. In fact this was regarded as illegal by the U.S., that any citizen enlist and involve themselves in the European conflict. These Americans who died in combat in Europe fighting Germany, in my opinion, had far reaching principals that saw beyond the "now" of isolationistic American thought, and knew that Germany, and it's Axis partners were inevitably going to carry the conflict to our continent. The famous Fighting Tiger P-40's were also an American volunteer force, fighting the Japanese in China, well before Pearl Harbor. These Americans put themselves in harms way well before Isolationist America was "Ass Kicked" into the frey by December 7th, 1941. Were these just thrill seekers that liked to fly planes and shoot others out of the sky for fun, or were these people that saw, or perceived a threat to their country, and had far reaching thoughts beyond the , "now"?

Just Eightball's editorial opinion.

 

[arkansasdave]

Why does this guy feel guilt for what he’s done? His actions are no different than those who protested against the Vietnam War by demonizing the actions of the soldiers who fought there. I’ll be returning home from Iraq myself in about six months. Maybe I should let him know when my plane lands so he can be there to show his lack of support by holding up some anti-bush, pro-democratic sign, and let us all know how he feel about our nations state of affairs. Maybe he can save up six months worth of spit to spew out at us just as I’m giving my wife a hug and a kiss. He can’t understand how it’s possible to support the troops and not support the war. I would like to think that a college degree would give him something of an edge in figuring out such a complicated dilemma. I’m fighting in this damn war even though I’m not a fan of Bush politics. I don’t believe that attacking Iraq and removing Saddam strengthened our nation’s defense against terrorism. Quite frankly I’m tired of hearing Bush gush with more word vomit every time someone questions his reasons for dragging us into this. I joined the military because I believe that my country is worth being defended. I feel the same sense of duty that my grandfather and father felt. He would venture to say that the right wing conservatives would just have us blindly “give in like the troops and just follow orders”. I have to follow orders given to me from higher, that much is true. It’s the nature of the beast if you want to be involved with the military. I don’t get to pick my battles. I didn’t vote for Bush, and I have done all I can to support those who I believe would defend our nation more intelligently. It bothers him somehow that my parents sport a yellow ribbon in the front yard (by the way, they didn’t vote for Bush either). It somehow grates at his conscience that people would send me a care package, put a bumper sticker on their car to show they care. His statement leads me to believe he can only be patriotic if things go the way he believes they should. I think he has probably lost faith in our political process. He must have succumbed to the notion that our country is on the road to its destruction at the hands of a republican, and the only thing left to do is hang around until the end and say, “I told you so.” Hopefully, he has a little more sense than that. Hopefully, he can help to elect someone who will change our current state of affairs. Hopefully, he can support the idea that I’m a soldier who will defend his nation whenever and wherever I’m called to defend it. You need someone like me: someone who will follow orders. If you can’t support someone like me, I think you’ve more problems than just a guilty conscience

 

[IControlThePast]

It's pretty funny that this guy really goes and steals those magnets. He's probably fueling the magnet industry as those who lost them go and buy more.

If the troops assumed that they would serve under the conditions that they would only fight necessary wars, dumb assumption on their part. I don't like how 18 year olds are having to register though.

I do find it funnier though when those condemn people for sticking up for their opinions and thoughts and considering that there is only "one" line of thought that America thinks, that the thoughts never change, and if you aren't in step with that line you're un-American. I thought this country was based on diversity, silly me.

 

[Annie]

It's pretty funny that this guy really goes and steals those magnets. He's probably fueling the magnet industry as those who lost them go and buy more.

If the troops assumed that they would serve under the conditions that they would only fight necessary wars, dumb assumption on their part. I don't like how 18 year olds are having to register though.

I do find it funnier though when those condemn people for sticking up for their opinions and thoughts and considering that there is only "one" line of thought that America thinks, that the thoughts never change, and if you aren't in step with that line you're un-American. I thought this country was based on diversity, silly me.

Who are you referring to? Who are the condemn people? Do you mean those that, condemn people? Or those that are condemned people? :scratch: