Ya know? How about an honest discussion.

[G.T.]

There are certain markers and keywords that can easily identify partisans.

Yea, you can tell that because I harp on the mean-spirited, lying propoganda from right wingerz, that I don't support the death penalty, I don't hate abortion, I don't take my gun rights seriously, I'm not marrying in a catholic church in less than three weeks, etc.

No, geniuses like midnight marauder had me PINNED!! when I linked to an AP story.

Douchebaggery does, indeed, exist heavier on the right and yes, I say that with a straight face and all the while fostering many right winged views. Truth is truth. Sorry if you old and bitter fucks have nothing better to do than hate hate hate and invent boogymen. "oh noes!! the left!!"

Fucking pussies.

 

[kwc57]

If I wished to prove my claim to be non-partisan and my stated desire for an honest discussion, I wouldn't link to anything partisan.

Right?

Especially not AP, WND (whatever that is) or any of the MSM.

You don't know what World Net Daily is? Really? Did you just fall off the turnip truck and stumble onto the interwebs message boards yesterday or something?

I simply have no information on WND, other than since you referenced it, it must be partisan. But if you want to give the impression that you are an innocent non-partisan, knock yourself out.

See?

And I've been on the innertubes since even before Al Gore invented it!

Since WND is one of the sources sited as acceptable just like Fox News, Weekly Standard, Washington Times and Rush by folks who whine about the LMSM.......and the fact that I've known of you from years on another board, I simply don't believe you don't know what WND is as it is linked to constantly by posters.

 

[toomuchtime_]

KISS look at Massachusetts.

The model for what is proposed. How far in the red is that state??? Hello?

That is an unrealistic comparison willow tree.

First study after study has been done showing that universal health care if implemented throughout the country will actually drive health care costs down.

Secondly if individual states try to go it alone they are at distinct disadvantages . The first thing the insurance companies do is raise rates and say tough luck if you don't like it we will just pull out of your state.

For instance Kentucky tried several years ago to put caps on medical and auto insurance rates. Insurance companies just pulled out of the state. Took their ball and went home and said we won't play unless you let us charge what we want.

States like Massachusetts that try to go it alone are seeing the insurance companies raise rates sky high because they are being told they cannot exclude people for pre existing conditions. With insurance rates that high, hospitals and doctors naturally want their share of the pie so rates go up across the board including for the state run programs.

Common sense says prices cannot be controlled unless all states are in and coverage is universal across the nation.

Naturally the insurance companies don't like that because that means they will have to compete for a share of the pie. It means they won't make multi billions a year , they may just make a few billion.

There is no basis in fact or logic for claiming universal health insurance will drive down health care/insurance rates. Government run/controlled health care/insurance can drive down health care/insurance rates by, to the extent the government controls the market, forcing providers, doctors, hospitals, etc., to accept lower payments and by rationing health care services in various ways, however, Congress could pass laws today that would force providers to accept lower payments and prevent insurance companies from providing high cost services without universal health care/insurance and without a government run plan and thereby significantly lower per capita health care costs. HR 3200 already contains provisions to limit increases in insurance premiums from private insurers, and over time this will force providers to accept less money or the insurance companies to provide less coverage.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

You don't know what World Net Daily is? Really? Did you just fall off the turnip truck and stumble onto the interwebs message boards yesterday or something?

I simply have no information on WND, other than since you referenced it, it must be partisan.

See?

And I've been on the innertubes since even before Al Gore invented it!

Since WND is one of the sources sited as acceptable just like Fox News, Weekly Standard, Washington Times and Rush by folks who whine about the LMSM.......and the fact that I've known of you from years on another board, I simply don't believe you don't know what WND is as it is linked to constantly by posters.

I have never been aware of any such "list." Can you link me to it?

 

[Midnight Marauder]

There are certain markers and keywords that can easily identify partisans.

Yea, you can tell that because I harp on the mean-spirited, lying propoganda from right wingerz, that I don't support the death penalty, I don't hate abortion, I don't take my gun rights seriously, I'm not marrying in a catholic church in less than three weeks, etc.

No, geniuses like midnight marauder had me PINNED!! when I linked to an AP story.

Douchebaggery does, indeed, exist heavier on the right and yes, I say that with a straight face and all the while fostering many right winged views. Truth is truth. Sorry if you old and bitter fucks have nothing better to do than hate hate hate and invent boogymen. "oh noes!! the left!!"

Fucking pussies.

You're simply a leftist partisan, trying to claim to be non-partisan. And, you're a thin-skinned crybaby to boot!

 

[Midnight Marauder]

old and bitter fucks

Oooooh! Ageism bigotry! And even mis-aimed at that!

More hallmarks of the Obamaphile!

 

[wvpeach]

Excellent , excellent post GT!

Tell it like it is man!

The truth always finds it's way to the light!

Yeah, we should just believe AP, NBC, SeeBS, and all the media outlets. They have no dog in this fight and are unbiased!

Right?

I just wish everyone would quite bitching about the media and look for panel debates by respected and knowledgeable people within the medical arena on C-Span who know what the fuck they're talking about, and will give YOU the information in LAY TERMS so that you will *get* it in a completely unbiased fashion. In the meantime, a reminder that NOTHING HAS YET BEEN PASSED, NOR EVEN LEGALLY DEBATED BY CONGRESS.

Well said maggie mae!

Well said and your right on!

 

[G.T.]

You're simply a leftist partisan, trying to claim to be non-partisan. And, you're a thin-skinned crybaby to boot!

And,

You're an old out-dated Idiot who is lead around byn his nose by guys like Rush Limbaugh, would give anything to give the man head; and if Rush ascribes "the evil left is doing ___ because their evil intention is _____" then that's your next story on the radio.

That's right wing radio. An entire premise made up of an invisible boogy-man and exascerbated by guys playing you fucking dupes for chumps who will take their word as gospel and continue the "preach on, brotherman!!" mentality.

It's so awful it makes me fucking sick to my stomach sometimes. Then I remember, I get laid. You don't. That much is prevalent.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

You're simply a leftist partisan, trying to claim to be non-partisan. And, you're a thin-skinned crybaby to boot!

And,

You're an old out-dated Idiot who is lead around byn his nose by guys like Rush Limbaugh, would give anything to give the man head; and if Rush ascribes "the evil left is doing ___ because their evil intention is _____" then that's your next story on the radio.

That's right wing radio. An entire premise made up of an invisible boogy-man and exascerbated by guys playing you fucking dupes for chumps who will take their word as gospel and continue the "preach on, brotherman!!" mentality.

It's so awful it makes me fucking sick to my stomach sometimes. Then I remember, I get laid. You don't. That much is prevalent.

This is how ignorant you are. I am neither old, nor an a talk radio listener. But as we all see by your OP, facts mean zilch to you.

And idiot, "sea salt" is NO different than any other food salt with two large exceptions. It's sodium chloride without the benefit of iodine, and idiots pay three times as much for it!

 

[Midnight Marauder]

old out-dated

It's little wonder the elderly fear Obama's health scare program, with ageism bigots such as yourself part of his cult!

Why do you hate old people?

 

[MaggieMae]

By the way Factcheck.org or whatever the fuck it's called doesn't tell the WHOLE truth. The bill doesn't say it will cover illegal immigrants, but it doesn't say it wouldn't either. The bill does provide cuts in Medicare,( 500 billion in the next ten years) which will effect senior citizens. Oh but factcheck doesn't mention that huh? How convenient.

It will cover illegals. You see the democwat congresscritters voted down the Heller Amendment. That's the game say you are against illegal immigration out of one side of your mouth and out of the other make it impossible to check.. Dishonest fuckery at it's very best. And no we don't presently cover illegals with full service medical care.. they are only entitled to emergency care.

I've posted the truth about the Heller amendment for YOU, specifically, and you choose to ignore it, as does the Just Say No blogosphere which is literally afire with attacks concerning that amendment.

The facts are these:

The only way anyone can get free health care under the existing proposals is to get "affordability credits" to pay for their health care. Two sections in the House bill already address this:

Sec. 242 states that in order to be eligible for affordability credits a person must be "an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States."

Section 246 states "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS." Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Both of those sections basically render the Heller amendment moot, since undocumented aliens are clearly NOT covered.

Finally, the Heller amendment would have generated intrusive investigation of ONLY those who opted for the public plan, and not those who opt for private plans creating a blatant discriminatory practice against poorer Americans.

 

[wvpeach]

There is no basis in fact or logic for claiming universal health insurance will drive down health care/insurance rates. Government run/controlled health care/insurance can drive down health care/insurance rates by, to the extent the government controls the market, forcing providers, doctors, hospitals, etc., to accept lower payments and by rationing health care services in various ways, however, Congress could pass laws today that would force providers to accept lower payments and prevent insurance companies from providing high cost services without universal health care/insurance and without a government run plan and thereby significantly lower per capita health care costs. HR 3200 already contains provisions to limit increases in insurance premiums from private insurers, and over time this will force providers to accept less money or the insurance companies to provide less coverage.

Uh, excuse me toomuchtime......................... Did you go back and read your own post?

Just saying? You seem to have made several of my points very, very well.

Yep we have to set rates on drugs and procedures to bend the cost curve in medical care. It's done in other nations and works very well.

And it seems your all for HR 3200 toomuchtime which by the by the way includes a public option to drive down costs from private insurers.

By your post seems your for it. Good for you toomuchtime.

 

[G.T.]

This is how ignorant you are. I am neither old, nor an a talk radio listener. But as we all see by your OP, facts mean zilch to you.

And idiot, "sea salt" is NO different than any other food salt with two large exceptions. It's sodium chloride without the benefit of iodine, and idiots pay three times as much for it!

And you're ignorant of my "partisanship," and bears shit.....wherever the fuck they want. PS, I don't use added salt to my meals.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Not true . Obviously you don't watch much c-span. You should start toomuchtime since you have so much time on your hands c-span is a good place to spend it.

Study after study has been done for decades about the economic benefits to the entire country if we adopt universal healthcare. Major organizations , universities and the AMA , including the states, all know universal health care will drive down costs and save money after being implemented for the first couple of years. .................

To be clear, the studies that show universal coverage would be cheaper are in the hundreds and have been done by non partisans over the last decade.

And, had you been watching c-span you would have seen dozens of hearing on health care up on capital hill. Insurers, medical groups, doctors, economists on committee after committee up on capital hill testifying about the best way to drive down health care costs . Which by the way, always starts with getting everybody covered so the insured aren't having to pick up the bill for the uninsured.

To be clear had you watched c-span you would have seen literally thousands of hours of studies on this health care issue.

So it's simply a right wing lie & talking point to say that this is all being rushed through. That is a lie. This issue has been worked on for a decade and since President Obama took office he has brought all the players to capital hill and held hundreds of hours of meetings about how to best get this done.

Problem being the mainstream media and right wingers as well as some on the left realize that the average American has the attention span of a gnat and if it's not American Idol , some goofy reality TV show , Nascar or sports Americans aren't watching.

That lets the pundits on both sides especially the right side, get away with telling outright lies. Because they know the American people most likely haven't been paying attention.

To stop this politicians and citizens need to be able to sue for these lies being told.
Back in the day politicians did sue if a newspaper lied about them and often caused the newspapers to have to retract the lies and kept them in check in the future.

Perhaps we need to return to that policy and situate laws so that if a pundit is lying they can easily be taken to court and pay out big damages. Because we certainly have a whole lot of lying going on on national TV. Especially Fox news.

another factor that prevents discussion if the 'dumbing' of americans.....people wont or dont read or research anything....so they have to go by some trumped up party line...hiding behind partisan shit allows people to "think" they know what they are talking about when they only know what the are 'parroting' this concept applies to both parties and all people regardless of political party... we have become to lazy to govern ourselves...too lazy to read...we must be spoon feed facts by punits.

I don't think the fault lies with the American people but with the leadership of the Democratic Party. When our cheerleader-in-chief announced he wanted House and Senate bills out of committee before the summer recess and a bill signed into law before the 2010 campaign season began because the issue was too urgent to waste time in careful study, honest disclosure of costs or open debate, he set the stage for the circus that has followed. The Democratic push has been based entirely on ideological and political considerations and not at all on careful assessments of costs and benefits and for this reason they deserve all the anger and ridicule they have received. This anger and ridicule is an honest expression of frustration about the way the Democrats have tried to ram this thing through before anyone really knows what it will cost or how it will impact our national or state economies and the Democratic response to this frustration has been almost entirely dishonest.

You are confusing universal health insurance with government run/controlled health insurance. Universal health care/insurance by itself will increase health care costs, but government run/controlled health care/insurance can lower health care/insurance costs by forcing providers to accept less money and by rationing health care services, but the government can apply these measures to force health care/insurance costs down without providing universal health care/insurance.

The fact that even after watching all those thousands of hours of C-Span you remain confused about these two concepts, universal health care and government controlled health insurance, is clear evidence the Dems are trying to force this bill through long before even such a devoted researcher as yourself has been able to understand what it is about.

 

[MaggieMae]

another factor that prevents discussion if the 'dumbing' of americans.....people wont or dont read or research anything....

Bonez.... Some reading and research for you:

Have you studied the health care problems of native Americans who live on reservations? They have had single-payer, government controlled healthcare since the government set up the reservations. It's third-world medical care right in the middle of a first-world country!

Indians' motto is "don't get sick after June" because that's when the funding runs out, and it's been a problem for two hundred years! Think of other US government run medical programs, such as the horrendous VA, then ask yourself, "why do we want the government taking over ALL healthcare?"

Start the reading on this here:

"Don't get sick after June!" - John Stossel's Take

Then check all this out:

"Don't get sick after June!" - Google Search

Shouldn't they like, FIX this first and prove to the rest of us they can run a health care system, on a small scale? Before we put them solely in the driver's seat of a really BIG bus with everyone on it? And with LOTS of folks thrown UNDER that bus?

Oh goody, this is the year conservatives are going to start caring about what happens on Indian reservations instead of pocketing whatever private wealth they have? (Jack Abramoff, Inc.) Can't wait to hear more.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

And it seems your all for HR 3200 toomuchtime which by the by the way includes a public option to drive down costs from private insurers.

You can never, EVER drive down costs by greatly increasing demand without greatly increasing supply. The exact opposite will happen. Why is everyone ignoring the definitely non-partisan CBO these days?

And it's not a public option, it's mandatory. Or, they tax the piss out of you. Penalize you.

 

[G.T.]

It's little wonder the elderly fear Obama's health scare program, with ageism bigots such as yourself part of his cult!

Why do you hate old people?

I have no hate in my blood except for dishonest and/or mean spirited people.

Old people are fine, just annoying. Stuck in their ways as human evolution occurs around them. They should move over or get run the fuck over. Contribute to discussions, don't just spite anything new. (evil wibwaws)

 

[Midnight Marauder]

another factor that prevents discussion if the 'dumbing' of americans.....people wont or dont read or research anything....

Bonez.... Some reading and research for you:

Have you studied the health care problems of native Americans who live on reservations? They have had single-payer, government controlled healthcare since the government set up the reservations. It's third-world medical care right in the middle of a first-world country!

Indians' motto is "don't get sick after June" because that's when the funding runs out, and it's been a problem for two hundred years! Think of other US government run medical programs, such as the horrendous VA, then ask yourself, "why do we want the government taking over ALL healthcare?"

Start the reading on this here:

"Don't get sick after June!" - John Stossel's Take

Then check all this out:

"Don't get sick after June!" - Google Search

Shouldn't they like, FIX this first and prove to the rest of us they can run a health care system, on a small scale? Before we put them solely in the driver's seat of a really BIG bus with everyone on it? And with LOTS of folks thrown UNDER that bus?

Oh goody, this is the year conservatives are going to start caring about what happens on Indian reservations instead of pocketing whatever private wealth they have? (Jack Abramoff, Inc.) Can't wait to hear more.

First, I am not a conservative. Second, I don't give two red rat's asses what happens on indian reservations. But you, as a liberal, should.

They have third-world health care that is run by the government. It's horrendous by all accounts. Shouldn't they fix that first? Prove to us they can run a health care program?

 

[Midnight Marauder]

It's little wonder the elderly fear Obama's health scare program, with ageism bigots such as yourself part of his cult!

Why do you hate old people?

I have no hate in my blood except for dishonest and/or mean spirited people.

And I have none at all, for anyone! But it's clear you hate yourself, if you read the bolded part of your quote really closely!

Old people are fine, just annoying. Stuck in their ways as human evolution occurs around them. They should move over or get run the fuck over.

And you want them to hurry the fuck up and DIE already.

Bigot.

 

[G.T.]

First, I am not a conservative. Second, I don't give two red rat's asses what happens on indian reservations. But you, as a liberal, should.

They have third-world health care that is run by the government. It's horrendous by all accounts. Shouldn't they fix that first? Prove to us they can run a health care program?

I'm sure there's no outside factors such as where their Doctors went to school, how different their diets/lifestyles are, etc. Must all be that evil liberal boogyman stuff. There can't be any other explanation.