Wtf!?!

[mrsx]

Do Darwinism and ID necessarily exclude one another? Perhaps evolution is - to a degree - the means the Designer chose to employ.

I tend to agree with you, at least to the point that nothing in Darwinism excludes a Creator. Darwin, as I am sure you know, was a devout and very traditional Christian.

Science can say nothing about the existence of God - it is outside the tautology. What the biologists get riled about is the attempt to look at a life form and reason backwards (inductively) to the existence of a Creator. This requires a number of steps that are incompatible with the dynamics of the theory of evolution and the scientific method.

 

[onedomino]

Earth tilts at precisely 23 degrees. One degree, one way or the other, and it would be an uninhabitable chunk of rock.

This argument consists of specifying a fact about nature and then saying that if things were different then there would be no life on Earth. In this case, that the tilt of the Earth’s axis is 23 degrees and that if it was different then there would be no life on Earth. So the argument is this: if things were different, then things would be different. What does this prove about ID? Nothing. Anyway, the tilt of the Earth’s axis is 23.5 degrees and it changes through more than two degrees every 41,000 years. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/climate/cli_sun.html

Scientists are learning more every day about the incredible complexity of life - ANY life, let alone human life. The odds against all this having just HAPPENED are incalculable, and those who stubbornly cling to this fantasy because it suits their politics are the ones engaged in a pitiful conceit. But, what the hell - enjoy yourself.

No one is saying that life just happened. Public school science teaches that it evolved from the simple to the complex. Your argument seems to be: DNA is rare, therefore God made it. Evolution is false because DNA is rare. This is analogous to saying that a dealt bridge hand is false because the chance of obtaining any particular hand, in the order received, is about one in 154 million trillion. In other words, this particular bridge hand, in the order received, is so rare, God must have dealt it. The biochemical history of DNA is so rare, God must have dealt it. Not necessarily.

Creationists and ID proponents cannot be convinced that Biochemical Evolution on Earth is real because it contradicts the literal word of the Bible. The huge mountain of scientific evidence complied over 150 years will not convince these people of the validity of Evolution. The fossil record, radio-chemical dating, animal and plant morphology, the geographical distribution of related species, and the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations, are not in the Bible. Biochemical Evolution on Earth does not contradict the existence of God. Evolution contradicts the literal words of a particular book. Creationism and ID are not supported by scientific evidence. To believe in these ideas requires an act of faith. These acts of faith do not belong in public school science class. Creationism and ID belong in comparative religion class or in private schools. Let’s tell ourselves the truth: Creationism and ID are attempts by Christian Fundamentalists to impose their religious belief in public school science class. They want to do this because in their particular religion Evolution contradicts the literal word of the Bible. No religious group has the right to impose its beliefs on everyone. It is not Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, or Taoists, that are agitating to impose their particular religious beliefs on public school science in America.

 

[mrsx]

Nicely put.

 

[archangel]

This argument consists of specifying a fact about nature and then saying that if things were different then there would be no life on Earth. In this case, that the tilt of the Earth’s axis is 23 degrees and that if it was different then there would be no life on Earth. So the argument is this: if things were different, then things would be different. What does this prove about ID? Nothing. Anyway, the tilt of the Earth’s axis is 23.5 degrees and it changes through more than two degrees every 41,000 years. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/climate/cli_sun.html

No one is saying that life just happened. Public school science teaches that it evolved from the simple to the complex. Your argument seems to be: DNA is rare, therefore God made it. Evolution is false because DNA is rare. This is analogous to saying that a dealt bridge hand is false because the chance of obtaining any particular hand, in the order received, is about one in 154 million trillion. In other words, this particular bridge hand, in the order received, is so rare, God must have dealt it. The biochemical history of DNA is so rare, God must have dealt it. Not necessarily.

Creationists and ID proponents cannot be convinced that Biochemical Evolution on Earth is real because it contradicts the literal word of the Bible. The huge mountain of scientific evidence complied over 150 years will not convince these people of the validity of Evolution. The fossil record, radio-chemical dating, animal and plant morphology, the geographical distribution of related species, and the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations, are not in the Bible. Biochemical Evolution on Earth does not contradict the existence of God. Evolution contradicts the literal words of a particular book. Creationism and ID are not supported by scientific evidence. To believe in these ideas requires an act of faith. These acts of faith do not belong in public school science class. Creationism and ID belong in comparative religion class or in private schools. Let’s tell ourselves the truth: Creationism and ID are attempts by Christian Fundamentalists to impose their religious belief in public school science class. They want to do this because in their particular religion Evolution contradicts the literal word of the Bible. No religious group has the right to impose its beliefs on everyone. It is not Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, or Taoists, that are agitating to impose their particular religious beliefs on public school science in America.

please explain the "Missing Link"...so far no one in science has provided evidence...your hypothesis explains lower life cells to lower intelligence mamals...where is the link to modern man...please explain! :shocked:

 

[musicman]

No one is saying that life just happened.

People who support the teaching of evolution to the exclusion of any other possibility are either saying precisely that, or else they're saying it doesn't matter HOW life happened.

Public school science teaches that it evolved from the simple to the complex.

Right - to the exclusion of any other explanation, and with no more proof than that possesssed by creationists.

Your argument seems to be: DNA is rare, therefore God made it.

The rarity of DNA is not the issue at all; rather, it is the insane improbability of it weaving itself together perfectly in order to create life. Talk about faith-based theories!

Evolution is false because DNA is rare. This is analogous to saying that a dealt bridge hand is false because the chance of obtaining any particular hand, in the order received, is about one in 154 million trillion. In other words, this particular bridge hand, in the order received, is so rare, God must have dealt it.

That's not quite it. If that same bridge hand fell to the table spelling out the words, "I'm alive!", the only people who would discount - out of hand - the presence of design, would be lunatics and those with an ax to grind about the concept of design.

To believe in these ideas requires an act of faith.

No more so than does the belief that all reality is material, and that nothing exists outside the material universe. This is an unproven - and unprovable - assertion upon which presumptions of fact are made; a "religion", if you will.

These acts of faith do not belong in public school science class.

Ah, but now we're getting into a host of other questions: Just whose job is it to determine what "belongs" in public schools? Who is it that's supposed to govern "the public"? How did the federal government get itself into the education business? And, just whose purpose is being served by the ongoing rape of the XIVth Amendment?

It is not Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, or Taoists, that are agitating to impose their particular religious beliefs on public school science in America.

Too bloody right it's not. It's the secular humanists!

 

[onedomino]

please explain the "Missing Link"...so far no one in science has provided evidence...your hypothesis explains lower life cells to lower intelligence mamals...where is the link to modern man...please explain! :shocked:

Paleoanthropology is an evolving field of scientific research. From the fossil record:

In Spain, a 13 million year old fossil has been recently discovered called Pierolapithecus Catalaunicus. It is a leading candidate for the last common ancestor of "great" apes (orangutans, chimpanzees, and gorillas) and hominids (several species, one of which leads to modern humans): http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1118_041118_great_ape_ancestor.html. There are other candidates for being the common ancestor of both great apes and humans. One of the first species for which there is evidence of tool use is Australopithecus Habilis, which existed about 2.4 million years ago. Habilis might have been capable of rudimentary speech. Homo Erectus lived about 1.8 million years ago and is the first human ancestor to be found outside of Africa. "Archaic" forms of Homo Sapiens first appear about 500 thousand years ago. The archaic form differs from modern humans in that some features of Home Erectus still appear. Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis appears about 230 thousand years ago and then died out about 30 thousand years ago. Neanderthals used speech, tools, and buried their dead. The first modern humans appear about 200 thousand years ago. They have brain sizes of about 13500cc. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html

 

[archangel]

Paleoanthropology is an evolving field of scientific research. From the fossil record:

In Spain, a 13 million year old fossil has been recently discovered called Pierolapithecus Catalaunicus. It is a leading candidate for the last common ancestor of "great" apes (orangutans, chimpanzees, and gorillas) and hominids (several species, one of which leads to modern humans): http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1118_041118_great_ape_ancestor.html. There are other candidates for being the common ancestor of both great apes and humans. One of the first species for which there is evidence of tool use is Australopithecus Habilis, which existed about 2.4 million years ago. Habilis might have been capable of rudimentary speech. Homo Erectus lived about 1.8 million years ago and is the first human ancestor to be found outside of Africa. "Archaic" forms of Homo Sapiens first appear about 500 thousand years ago. The archaic form differs from modern humans in that some features of Home Erectus still appear. Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis appears about 230 thousand years ago and then died out about 30 thousand years ago. Neanderthals used speech, tools, and buried their dead. The first modern humans appear about 200 thousand years ago. They have brain sizes of about 13500cc. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html

however it still does not show a link between ape and man...they still appear to be separate entities...as stated the neanderthal disappeared some 30 thousand years ago...but our ancestors remained viable...as in Adam and Eve.

 

[Bullypulpit]

however it still does not show a link between ape and man...they still appear to be separate entities...as stated the neanderthal disappeared some 30 thousand years ago...but our ancestors remained viable...as in Adam and Eve.

Why then, does <i>homo sapiens</i> share 98% of their genome with <i>Pan troglodytes</i>, the common chimpanzee...Hmmm?

 

[archangel]

Why then, does <i>homo sapiens</i> share 98% of their genome with <i>Pan troglodytes</i>, the common chimpanzee...Hmmm?

We also share about the same DNA with the common white mice...thats why they are used in medical research...the difference being the human brain and psychological makeup....maybe devine intervention...humm!

 

[Bullypulpit]

We also share about the same DNA with the common white mice...thats why they are used in medical research...the difference being the human brain and psychological makeup....maybe devine intervention...humm!

How's about a common mammalian ancestor back in the Late Triassic or Early Jurassic periods when mammals made their first appearance?

Tha's about 208 million years ago...Nearly a quarter billion years. We all accept that an adult human being develops from a few undifferentiated cells in a score, or so, of years. Why then the difficulty accepting that the same process occurred over billions of years, spurred on by natural selection?

The reason is simple...Some are simply unable to feel safe or at ease in this world unless they have the security provided by some divine, supernatural entity which puts the world in order for them. And that's not a problem...Such belief provides them with the emotional security they need to continue their own personal development. The problem arises when that sense of security is insufficient...The fear of a disordered and chaotic world still fills them with fear, and so they attempt to sieze control of all around them. This is what drive relifious zealots the world over. Fear...Fear that the world will overwhelm them...obliterate them...ignore them.

And so it is with the religious fundamentalists in this country. They are driven by their fears to attempt to indoctrinate children in the schools. They seek to have their religious dogma enshrined in law. They have abandoned their faith in their creator to seize temporal power here on earth.

 

[archangel]

How's about a common mammalian ancestor back in the Late Triassic or Early Jurassic periods when mammals made their first appearance?

Tha's about 208 million years ago...Nearly a quarter billion years. We all accept that an adult human being develops from a few undifferentiated cells in a score, or so, of years. Why then the difficulty accepting that the same process occurred over billions of years, spurred on by natural selection?

The reason is simple...Some are simply unable to feel safe or at ease in this world unless they have the security provided by some divine, supernatural entity which puts the world in order for them. And that's not a problem...Such belief provides them with the emotional security they need to continue their own personal development. The problem arises when that sense of security is insufficient...The fear of a disordered and chaotic world still fills them with fear, and so they attempt to sieze control of all around them. This is what drive relifious zealots the world over. Fear...Fear that the world will overwhelm them...obliterate them...ignore them.

And so it is with the religious fundamentalists in this country. They are driven by their fears to attempt to indoctrinate children in the schools. They seek to have their religious dogma enshrined in law. They have abandoned their faith in their creator to seize temporal power here on earth.

Isn't that what Satan said...I am equal to the creator...taste from the forbidden fruit!

 

[Bullypulpit]

...taste from the forbidden fruit!

Sorry...I'd rather not. You're simply not my type.

 

[tim_duncan2000]

And so it is with the religious fundamentalists in this country. They are driven by their fears to attempt to indoctrinate children in the schools. They seek to have their religious dogma enshrined in law. They have abandoned their faith in their creator to seize temporal power here on earth.

We know the anti-religious liberals never try to indoctrinate anyone

Give me a break. It's exactly like a religion to people like you.

The evolution issue is just one of many issues that you absolutely cannot challenge them. We are just suppose to accept every aspect of the theory. They just ignore it when people talk about how absurd it is that random DNA mutations account for everything. There is some mechanism somewhere that lets animals turn into other animals. Insects, reptiles, birds, mammals just pop up. I have yet to hear a good explanation of this process.

You also cannot challenge the evolution zealots about the lack of transitional forms and fossil evidence. They just ignore that too.

 

[Bullypulpit]

We know the anti-religious liberals never try to indoctrinate anyone

Give me a break. It's exactly like a religion to people like you.

The evolution issue is just one of many issues that you absolutely cannot challenge them. We are just suppose to accept every aspect of the theory. They just ignore it when people talk about how absurd it is that random DNA mutations account for everything. There is some mechanism somewhere that lets animals turn into other animals. Insects, reptiles, birds, mammals just pop up. I have yet to hear a good explanation of this process.

You also cannot challenge the evolution zealots about the lack of transitional forms and fossil evidence. They just ignore that too.

Animals don't just "turn into other animals" at the drop of a hat, as your statement implies. Lifeforms adapt to their environment and change over time. We have very clear evidence of this in the Galapagos Islands, Hawai'i and other isolated environs. Fossil evidence of the first species to arrive in these environments show the progression to the current multitude of species that now occupy those environments, each adapted to fill a specific niche in that environment.

It requires no great leap of logic then, to extrapolate the evolutionary and adaptive process in these isolated environments to the world at large. The evidence exists, yet you fail to accept it as you fear that it might upset your precariously balanced view of the world. You cannot understand that it makes life an even more miraculous and precious thing as it required no creator. It created itself.

If you really wish to remain in the past, I would suggest that you join the "<a href=http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm>Flat Earth Society</a>"

 

[archangel]

Sorry...I'd rather not. You're simply not my type.

Good God y'all gays have one track minds...stay with the subject and out of your little worlds gutter! Then again maybe you were saying you are Satan...

 

[Bullypulpit]

Good God y'all gays have one track minds...stay with the subject and out of your little worlds gutter! Then again maybe you were saying you are Satan...

You're assumption has made an ass of you.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Good God y'all gays have one track minds...stay with the subject and out of your little worlds gutter! Then again maybe you were saying you are Satan...

Your assumption has made an ass of you.

 

[mrsx]

We also share about the same DNA with the common white mice...thats why they are used in medical research...the difference being the human brain and psychological makeup....maybe devine intervention...humm!

The most interesting comparison is that men have more DNA in common with male chimps than with women. Of course, we girls have known that all along!

 

[archangel]

Your assumption has made an ass of you.

Well Wooly Bully...touche'..I suspect that we both did...since assume means...
you made a (ass) out of (u) and (me) :funnyface

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The most interesting comparison is that men have more DNA in common with male chimps than with women. Of course, we girls have known that all along!

Yes. You human females are stuck with permanently enlarged buttocks, resembling the buttocks of estrous female apes. It's a tradeoff either way.
:funnyface