Would Kerry Buy Poor People Guns??

MJDuncan1982 said:
Yea I agree. It seems to me that the Constitution does not provide for effective free speech. It provides that you can not be denied free speech.

A fine point but I said nothing about effective free speech; Heck most free speech I hear these days is a lot of mouthing off. Effective due process is another matter all together, given in some circumstances it could mean economic ruin or even life or death. A good defense lawyer as opposed to a mediocre court appointed lawyer could and does make all the difference in the world in ensuring due process.
 
MJDuncan1982 said:
I disagree with you that his premise about the constitutionality of abortion is false. The Supreme Court's job is to determine what is, and what isn't, constitutional. They have said, unless there is a provision to exempt when the live of the mother is in danger, any law outlawing abortion is unconstitutional.

You may think otherwise but that is the law of the land as of right now. It may change, it may not but when Kerry made his remarks during the debate, abortion is protected by the Constitution.

As to the part about funding what is deemed a Constitutional right, I'm undecided. Most things protected by the Constitution do not require wealth, i.e. speech, religion, assembly, due process, etc.

I'm not quite sure where I stand on this issue but I do feel that a person's ability to exercise Constitutional rights should never depend upon wealth.

I'd have to lean that Kerry was wrong labeling it a constitutional right. More along the lines of a right that cannot be taken away because of the protection of the Constitution. It is a negative right in my opinion rather than a positive one.

I don't have a problem with legal abortion if it is limited to cases of the mothers health, rape, and incest. What I don't like is somebody that ignores the fact that sex can lead to pregnancy and wants to end a life because it doesn't fit into their plans or it isn't convienient for them to have a child. Frankly, they should have considered that before hand. Supporters of abortion keep claiming the government doesn't have the right to say what a woman does with her body, but it's not the woman's body that some of us are concerned with. If a woman wants to mutilate herself, she can go right ahead as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business. It's what happens to that baby that I'm concerned with.
 
Jimmyeatworld said:
I don't have a problem with legal abortion if it is limited to cases of the mothers health, rape, and incest. What I don't like is somebody that ignores the fact that sex can lead to pregnancy and wants to end a life because it doesn't fit into their plans or it isn't convienient for them to have a child. Frankly, they should have considered that before hand. Supporters of abortion keep claiming the government doesn't have the right to say what a woman does with her body, but it's not the woman's body that some of us are concerned with. If a woman wants to mutilate herself, she can go right ahead as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business. It's what happens to that baby that I'm concerned with.


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Best reply in the thread.
 
Jimmyeatworld said:
I don't have a problem with legal abortion if it is limited to cases of the mothers health, rape, and incest. What I don't like is somebody that ignores the fact that sex can lead to pregnancy and wants to end a life because it doesn't fit into their plans or it isn't convienient for them to have a child. Frankly, they should have considered that before hand. Supporters of abortion keep claiming the government doesn't have the right to say what a woman does with her body, but it's not the woman's body that some of us are concerned with. If a woman wants to mutilate herself, she can go right ahead as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business. It's what happens to that baby that I'm concerned with.

If you're truely concerned about the baby, why is it okay in your mind to kill it if it's there as a result of rape or incest? Let it be born and then adopted..
 
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Wonderful point which many pro-lifers gloss over. It makes no sense to be ant-abortion because of the baby but then allow for it in cases of rape and incest.

Why should the baby be harmed because it's father raped it's mother?
 
MJDuncan1982 said:
Wonderful point which many pro-lifers gloss over. It makes no sense to be ant-abortion because of the baby but then allow for it in cases of rape and incest.

Why should the baby be harmed because it's father raped it's mother?

That point has never been lost on me. Its not the babies fault yet the baby is the one that dies. :( :(
 
Bonnie said:
The second Amendment guarantees "the right of the people to keep and bear arms. "Thus strict application of the Kerry Doctrine--taxpayers must subsidize poor people in doing "whatever the constitution affords them if they can't afford it otherwise" --would mean the government must buy poor people guns.

Allllllrighty then. All you right wingers can have your guns. If the government is going to subsidize any of MY rights, I want it to be the "pursuit of happiness". And let me tell ya baby, it ain't gonna be cheap. I have a lot of happiness I want to pursue.
 
Merlin1047 said:
Allllllrighty then. All you right wingers can have your guns. If the government is going to subsidize any of MY rights, I want it to be the "pursuit of happiness". And let me tell ya baby, it ain't gonna be cheap. I have a lot of happiness I want to pursue.


I'm afraid that's what the liberals are referring to when they say they are pro-choice. The women don't want to "burdened " with pregnancy. Girls just wanna have fun.
 
dilloduck said:
I'm afraid that's what the liberals are referring to when they say they are pro-choice. The women don't want to "burdened " with pregnancy. Girls just wanna have fun.

God that is so true and sad.

You know Im terrified of having children. I really don't want to loose my figure even for a few months, and I sure don't want to loose my freedom, and I sure don't want to lose my self, so I am the last person who should be pro-life, but it still all comes down to....it's a human being and it's supposed to have life.
 
-Cp said:
If you're truely concerned about the baby, why is it okay in your mind to kill it if it's there as a result of rape or incest? Let it be born and then adopted..

I admit it's a fine line and I do see that point. It is something to think about.

When a woman is raped she is not making a choice to have sex. Even in the case of rape, there is a line drawn about when the pregnancy should be aborted. The bad thing about it all is that when a woman is raped, I understand that they are afraid and feel ashamed and don't won't to admit what happened. If a woman finds the courage to stand up immediately and say what happened, there is a way to stop the fertilization before it get started. I'm not a doctor and I don't know exactly what the process is, but I do know it is there. The problem is with getting a woman that has been raped to the doctor early enough.
 
JimmyEatWorld brings up an important point. As a woman recently out of the college system, I know what he is trying to discuss and he is right. Most universities' and colleges' health services have rape crisis services available at all hours of the day. If a woman is raped and goes to these places soon after, they are given an exam that 1) takes evidence and 2) prevents pregnancy in a number of ways, (forgive any graphicness) they clean a woman up, removing anything which could impregnante her, they do a gynocological exam, and many offer the morning-after pill which is really just a super dose of birth control...this will either aide in stopping a newly fertilized egg...or make such an event not happen.

Therefore, a woman who gets help right away will not have to deal with the issue of an abortion later on when after the fertilized egg has had time to develop (remember scientists now say a full and seperate heart is developed and beating by 18 days).

Obviously however, one of the major problems is getting women to come forward soon after their rapes.

Another topic that is not brought up in the subject of abortion, and one that I think is very vital to the issue of CHOICE...is the studies that have been done on post-abortion women.

They have shown conclusively that the vast majority of women who have had abortions suffer severe depression and regret afterwards...often for long afterwards, years, decades, throughout their lives. Many name their baby, note its birthday...and think about it for the rest of their lives.

These studies have shown that women who have given their children up for adoption have regret about not being with their baby, but are entirely healthier mentally, feel positive about the choice they made, and often, are ecstatic to learn that the adoptive parents want the child to know the real mother.

Abortion clinics do not stress this...they do not do so because abortion is now a multi-billion dollar business. Most do not allow the women to view the final ultra-sound, for fear that the women will change their mind. Many are now moving towards "healing" activities like telling the women that the baby will "come back to them when they are ready," and having them write letters to their babies about how much they love them, and how they will meet them when they are ready.

That is not "choice". All religious beliefs aside, biology dismisses that idea. the creation of a child is a unique combination of two persons' dna...you could have 800 kids with someone and NEVER have the same mix. Think of your siblings...if you are the oldest, and your parents aborted you...is your sibling "you?" No, of course not...if you are the youngest....if your parents had aborted your older brother and sister...are you them??? Nope...when you abort a child you will NEVER get that child back...it just doesn't work that way, and to tell a woman trying to make a decision so important that is to lie to her....that isn't a choice. Not letting her see how developed her fetus is is not a choice.

In fact, the only way to actually give a woman an informed "choice" is to say, "No, this fetus is unique, and you will never have another one exactly like it." While harsh, it is true...and feeding women in emotionally fragile state the line that the baby "understands" that the woman isn't ready and "will come back to her" when she is ready, is simply dishonest...and is pro-abortion...not pro-choice.

Interestingly, many studies say that even in the cases of rape and incest, HAVING the baby is actually better for the mother mentally as well. While an abortion is just one more horrid event after the rape...having a child and giving it to a family that wants it is, for many women, healing. To see that your tragedy can be turned into the greatest happiness imaginable for a family that can not have children has been very healing for women. In cases of incest, women have reported having a feeling of validity. While having an abortion feels like one more example of their "shame" and "dirty secret" being hidden...having that child is proof that they haven't been lying...and proof that something had been going on that needed to be stopped. And again, giving that child up to a family that wants it can be healing.

Now, I still feel that if a woman is raped she should have that choice since the choice was taken away from her originally...however...if you are pro-CHOICE then you can not turn away from all of the facts. The fact that many women who see how developed their baby is decide not to abort it...even last minute. The fact that adoption is NOT stressed as a viable option in our nation. The fact that most women suffer INTENSE psychological trauma from having an abortion, and conversely most women feel intensely healed by the adoption process. The fact that even in cases of rape and incest, adoption can be better for a woman then abortion.

The debate is a difficult one...and in many ways, the pro-life people have made the easier choice...because in order to be pro-CHOICE you have to be aware of ALL of the information...otherwise you really are just pro-abortion, even if you are just "pro-abortion under certain circumstances".
 

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