Would Christ Fight The Christmas War?

[Madeline]

Wonder what Jesus thinks of those family values Republicans who push to keep Christ in Christmas but yet pull moves like giving tax breaks to the rich and refusing to give health benefits to 9/11 first responders? Now, I don't claim to have the mind of Christ. But I can easily imagine heaven resembling a Monty Pythonesque sketch right about now. As these faith fights spin out of control, Jesus pleads with a Terry Gilliam depiction of the Almighty, "Dad, I can't believe you sent me down to earth so I could die for this!"

Some days, the jokes seem to write themselves. But I fail to find the humor in touting American exceptionalism as though the United States represents this City on a Hill, an exemplar of Christian virtue by those who turn in a political performance that would make the Grinch green with envy.

I can't think of a more inappropriate present to give the baby Jesus than to bag the Beatitudes (Matthew 5-7) during the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Just who do these Republicans think Jesus is referring to when he talks about "the least of these?" With over 3,000 references to poverty in the bible, it's pretty clear that Jesus' priorities lay with the poor. Without a doubt, he would turn the tables on a family-friendly agenda that advances a form of biblical capitalism where those in power evoke the name of Jesus as though the will of Christ is in synch with their own ambitions.

Guest Voices: Would Jesus fight in the Christmas Wars? - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

This is not the entire article; please read the whole thing. I must say, I think the author is dead on.

Your thoughts?

 

[froggy]

No.

 

[Truthmatters]

According to the right on here he would have whipped the poor people for being "lazy" and praised the moneychangers

 

[Madeline]

There have been some very angry threads directed at the poor, unemployed, etc. of late. That's certainly true. Dunno if the writers were self-described christians or not.....but there is a resurgence of the Religious Right in this country and in the main, they also seem antagonistic to the disadvantaged and worshipful of the rich.

Hardly "christian" values.

 

[Si modo]

If one has to be poor, the USA is one of the best places to be poor. Fucking Judeo-Christian values.

 

[eagleseven]

Jesus fought the passover war, and lost. Pharisees 1, Jesus 0.

 

[Truthmatters]

Jesus was a man of the people and NOT a defender of the wealthy as better people because they had the money and power.

 

[zzzz]

They are Christians on social values but anti-Christian on economic values. That is the political aspect of the religious right. Yet I see a lot of giving in my hometown by the churches; food, clothing and other help to the needy. People give up part of their holidays to help the disadvantaged around here and even in these down times they are still giving. Of course I live in west central Indiana so I do not know how it is in Cleveland or other cities.

 

[Avatar4321]

You know it's funny. you guys specifically say you dont want us to legislate our religion and then complain when we dont.

Problem is Christianity and Christ never argued for government programs. He didn't advocate governments take money from people to give to others. He wanted individuals to come to Him and choose of their own free will what to do with what the Lord has blessed them with. With their time, talents, wealth etc

The Savior doesn't advocate Robbery. Even the legalized kind through taxation. He advocates us taking up our cross and being our own stewards in consultation with the Lord.

It's not just the ends. It's the means that are important.

I would suggest that the author and anyone who agrees with him actually turn to the Savior and get to know Him. They will understand how He thinks much better..

 

[Madeline]

Describing taxation as "robbery" sort of assumes the reply, Avatar. I can see your point about keeping religion out of politics, but what sort of christianity is it that makes an idol of the rich and insults the poor?

BTW, christianity is hardly the only religion that urges its adherents to tend to the poor. I should think they all do, more or less.

 

[Kat]

Describing taxation as "robbery" sort of assumes the reply, Avatar. I can see your point about keeping religion out of politics, but what sort of christianity is it that makes an idol of the rich and insults the poor?

BTW, christianity is hardly the only religion that urges its adherents to tend to the poor. I should think they all do, more or less.

It is very insulting that you would say that Christians make idols out of the rich and insult the poor. WTH Madeline.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know it's funny. you guys specifically say you dont want us to legislate our religion and then complain when we dont.

Problem is Christianity and Christ never argued for government programs. He didn't advocate governments take money from people to give to others. He wanted individuals to come to Him and choose of their own free will what to do with what the Lord has blessed them with. With their time, talents, wealth etc

The Savior doesn't advocate Robbery. Even the legalized kind through taxation. He advocates us taking up our cross and being our own stewards in consultation with the Lord.

It's not just the ends. It's the means that are important.

I would suggest that the author and anyone who agrees with him actually turn to the Savior and get to know Him. They will understand how He thinks much better..

Wrong Avatar.........Yeshua Himself is the dude who said "render unto Cesar what is Cesar's", meaning pay your taxes.

As far as your question Madeline? No, I don't think Yeshua would support Christmas as it currently stands.

For one thing, He actually knows what day He was born on, and it ain't Dec. 25th.

I'm also pretty sure that He'd be a bit pissed off that they were using His birth as a way to pay homage to Saturn and Odin, as well as the Siberian shaman known as "Sinterclause" being the main spokesperson for HIS holiday.

If Yeshua had to choose sides on the war on Christmas? I'm pretty sure He would be on the side against it.

 

[Avatar4321]

Describing taxation as "robbery" sort of assumes the reply, Avatar. I can see your point about keeping religion out of politics, but what sort of christianity is it that makes an idol of the rich and insults the poor?

BTW, christianity is hardly the only religion that urges its adherents to tend to the poor. I should think they all do, more or less.

Christ asked us to take care of the poor by our means and wealth. Not with the wealth and means of others.

Taxation is legalized Robbery. Taking property from others by the use of force is Robbery. And that's exactly what our current government is doing. We are taking money from one group to give to another.

It's one thing to tax ourselves. But we are robbing our children without their representation. And for what? Social programs no one is accountable for? Programs that waste money? That destroy initiative? That decieve people?

You honestly think that is what God wants?

God wants us to have charity for the poor. To help them. To lift them up. I repeat. He wants us to do it.

How does outsourcing our responsibilities teach us charity? How does it teach those that recieve our gifts gratitude when they believe they are Entitled to it?

How is it charity if it's not voluntary?

You can't force people to do good. That's not Christ's plan. That's the signature of the other guy.

I want freedom. I dont want to labor until April to pay off the government just to have them spend even more than what I have to give them every year. I could pay off my debt. I could better support my family. I could truly help those that need it. But I can't because the government takes so much of my money. And I am no where near the rich level.

Taxes are our labor. Our Effort. The more you take them to waste on things, the less we have to truly bless the world around us.

 

[Avatar4321]

You know it's funny. you guys specifically say you dont want us to legislate our religion and then complain when we dont.

Problem is Christianity and Christ never argued for government programs. He didn't advocate governments take money from people to give to others. He wanted individuals to come to Him and choose of their own free will what to do with what the Lord has blessed them with. With their time, talents, wealth etc

The Savior doesn't advocate Robbery. Even the legalized kind through taxation. He advocates us taking up our cross and being our own stewards in consultation with the Lord.

It's not just the ends. It's the means that are important.

I would suggest that the author and anyone who agrees with him actually turn to the Savior and get to know Him. They will understand how He thinks much better..

Wrong Avatar.........Yeshua Himself is the dude who said "render unto Cesar what is Cesar's", meaning pay your taxes.

As far as your question Madeline? No, I don't think Yeshua would support Christmas as it currently stands.

For one thing, He actually knows what day He was born on, and it ain't Dec. 25th.

I'm also pretty sure that He'd be a bit pissed off that they were using His birth as a way to pay homage to Saturn and Odin, as well as the Siberian shaman known as "Sinterclause" being the main spokesperson for HIS holiday.

If Yeshua had to choose sides on the war on Christmas? I'm pretty sure He would be on the side against it.

I think you just quoted the one scripture that supports me the most.

Render to Ceasar what's Ceasars and to God what is God's.

They are mutually exclusive. Governments don't do the work of God. Individuals do. When governments claim to do the work of God, bad things happen.

And what is God's? What's made in His image?

 

[Stitchman]

You know it's funny. you guys specifically say you dont want us to legislate our religion and then complain when we dont.

Problem is Christianity and Christ never argued for government programs. He didn't advocate governments take money from people to give to others. He wanted individuals to come to Him and choose of their own free will what to do with what the Lord has blessed them with. With their time, talents, wealth etc

The Savior doesn't advocate Robbery. Even the legalized kind through taxation. He advocates us taking up our cross and being our own stewards in consultation with the Lord.

It's not just the ends. It's the means that are important.

I would suggest that the author and anyone who agrees with him actually turn to the Savior and get to know Him. They will understand how He thinks much better..

Wrong Avatar.........Yeshua Himself is the dude who said "render unto Cesar what is Cesar's", meaning pay your taxes.

As far as your question Madeline? No, I don't think Yeshua would support Christmas as it currently stands.

For one thing, He actually knows what day He was born on, and it ain't Dec. 25th.

I'm also pretty sure that He'd be a bit pissed off that they were using His birth as a way to pay homage to Saturn and Odin, as well as the Siberian shaman known as "Sinterclause" being the main spokesperson for HIS holiday.

If Yeshua had to choose sides on the war on Christmas? I'm pretty sure He would be on the side against it.

I think you just quoted the one scripture that supports me the most.

Render to Ceasar what's Ceasars and to God what is God's.

They are mutually exclusive. Governments don't do the work of God. Individuals do. When governments claim to do the work of God, bad things happen.

And what is God's? What's made in His image?

What you're essentially advocating here is anarchy. If you believe that Christ is focusing more on the means, and that there is no value in forcing someone to do something, then there is not logic in having any laws at all. From a Christian perspective, anarchy actually makes a lot of sense. One of my close friends is a Christian anarchist actually, he's a pretty cool guy.

On a related note, I had an economics teacher who almost had a utopian idea of capitalism. In his eyes, the greatest thing you could give an individual or a country is capitalism. Where barriers to trade/entry have been removed and property rights have been protected, prosperity (on a societal level) has followed. Now, this really isn't a Christian idea; clearly, charity conflicts with this notion. It's important to question how valid this is; a disparity between the rich and poor can be very vast indeed. Also, it's a simple fact that (relative) poverty will always exist in a society.

 

[Madeline]

Describing taxation as "robbery" sort of assumes the reply, Avatar. I can see your point about keeping religion out of politics, but what sort of christianity is it that makes an idol of the rich and insults the poor?

BTW, christianity is hardly the only religion that urges its adherents to tend to the poor. I should think they all do, more or less.

It is very insulting that you would say that Christians make idols out of the rich and insult the poor. WTH Madeline.

Not all christians, Kat. Some of our elected officials, and some of their supporters.

 

[Madeline]

Describing taxation as "robbery" sort of assumes the reply, Avatar. I can see your point about keeping religion out of politics, but what sort of christianity is it that makes an idol of the rich and insults the poor?

BTW, christianity is hardly the only religion that urges its adherents to tend to the poor. I should think they all do, more or less.

Christ asked us to take care of the poor by our means and wealth. Not with the wealth and means of others.

Taxation is legalized Robbery. Taking property from others by the use of force is Robbery. And that's exactly what our current government is doing. We are taking money from one group to give to another.

It's one thing to tax ourselves. But we are robbing our children without their representation. And for what? Social programs no one is accountable for? Programs that waste money? That destroy initiative? That decieve people?

You honestly think that is what God wants?

God wants us to have charity for the poor. To help them. To lift them up. I repeat. He wants us to do it.

How does outsourcing our responsibilities teach us charity? How does it teach those that recieve our gifts gratitude when they believe they are Entitled to it?

How is it charity if it's not voluntary?

You can't force people to do good. That's not Christ's plan. That's the signature of the other guy.

I want freedom. I dont want to labor until April to pay off the government just to have them spend even more than what I have to give them every year. I could pay off my debt. I could better support my family. I could truly help those that need it. But I can't because the government takes so much of my money. And I am no where near the rich level.

Taxes are our labor. Our Effort. The more you take them to waste on things, the less we have to truly bless the world around us.

Your labor is only profitable because you live in a society, Avatar. Without government, you could not earn dime one, and you cost all your fellow citizens a certain amount of cash. It is not unreasonable to ask that you pay your fair share. Calling taxes "robbery" may feel good, but theoretically it is a foolish and wrong-headed idea.

As for "charity", in your view all of us should be on a cash and carry basis for all goods and services and to whatever degree we are not, we receive government aid or government-mandated-aid. I can't tell if your complaint is the government aids the poor too much and there isn't enough left for you to do, or the government should not aid the poor at all, because if it did not, the middle class and rich would do so much more "efficiently". But whatever you hoped to argue is utter nonsense IMO. Please point out any nation, now or in the past, which neglected to use its government to aid the poor but the wealthy did so voluntarily and adequately. None has ever existed and none ever will.

For starters, government aid to the poor is a service to YOU. You and your family enjoy peace and security because the underclass are not desperate and hopeless. I'm aways amazed at how blightly people overlook this direct benefit to them. I have a right to know there's a minimum amount of aid available in my area for those who need it -- and I demand this right. Whether we agree on how these programs should be designed, the fact is, both you and I benefit from them tremendously.

It is an essential government function to provide aid to the poor, along with courtrooms to settle disputes and trash collectors to keep the streets clean. We can have many fine convos about how that aid should be structured, etc but I am 100% convinced that caring for the children, infirm and elderly who cannot care for themselves is all our responsibilities as humans and citizens. Aid to able-bodied adults presents other issues IMO, but if a modest amount of aid for a brief period of time gets a family back up on their hind legs, at a minimum, it is a good investment.

I want my government to be just, and IMO, justice includes some assurances to me and anyone else in the middle class or wealthy that the poor among us will be dealt with fairly, will be looked after if that's all that can be done and will be given an opportunity to escape poverty if they are able. I do not understand those of you who claim no such justice is needed, wanted, or worth funding. I truely do not.

Advocating that the government abandon the poor, the unemployed, the plight of 911 first responders and anyone else in distress -- especially those who have served us -- while at the same time advocating that the wealthiest among us receive a ginormous tax cut seems to me to undercut the justice available to us all in this country.

If your faith dictates your morals and informs your acts, then it seems to me that acts like these are at odds with your faith's precepts, and those of the elected officials who self-identify as christians and are responsible for these decisions.

 

[Newby]

Wonder what Jesus thinks of those family values Republicans who push to keep Christ in Christmas but yet pull moves like giving tax breaks to the rich and refusing to give health benefits to 9/11 first responders? Now, I don't claim to have the mind of Christ. But I can easily imagine heaven resembling a Monty Pythonesque sketch right about now. As these faith fights spin out of control, Jesus pleads with a Terry Gilliam depiction of the Almighty, "Dad, I can't believe you sent me down to earth so I could die for this!"

Some days, the jokes seem to write themselves. But I fail to find the humor in touting American exceptionalism as though the United States represents this City on a Hill, an exemplar of Christian virtue by those who turn in a political performance that would make the Grinch green with envy.

I can't think of a more inappropriate present to give the baby Jesus than to bag the Beatitudes (Matthew 5-7) during the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Just who do these Republicans think Jesus is referring to when he talks about "the least of these?" With over 3,000 references to poverty in the bible, it's pretty clear that Jesus' priorities lay with the poor. Without a doubt, he would turn the tables on a family-friendly agenda that advances a form of biblical capitalism where those in power evoke the name of Jesus as though the will of Christ is in synch with their own ambitions.

Guest Voices: Would Jesus fight in the Christmas Wars? - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

This is not the entire article; please read the whole thing. I must say, I think the author is dead on.

Your thoughts?

I only got to the word 'Republicans', and then realized I could ignore the rest of it as partisan dribble.

 

[Newby]

There have been some very angry threads directed at the poor, unemployed, etc. of late. That's certainly true. Dunno if the writers were self-described christians or not.....but there is a resurgence of the Religious Right in this country and in the main, they also seem antagonistic to the disadvantaged and worshipful of the rich.

Hardly "christian" values.

Maybe in your head, but that's not reality.

 

[Newby]

You know it's funny. you guys specifically say you dont want us to legislate our religion and then complain when we dont.

Problem is Christianity and Christ never argued for government programs. He didn't advocate governments take money from people to give to others. He wanted individuals to come to Him and choose of their own free will what to do with what the Lord has blessed them with. With their time, talents, wealth etc

The Savior doesn't advocate Robbery. Even the legalized kind through taxation. He advocates us taking up our cross and being our own stewards in consultation with the Lord.

It's not just the ends. It's the means that are important.

I would suggest that the author and anyone who agrees with him actually turn to the Savior and get to know Him. They will understand how He thinks much better..

Very well said, as usual Av.