"Working less" fixes war and unemployment

Misaki

Senior Member
Jul 8, 2011
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People often assume that working more is good for the economy, because for their entire lives they have observed that those whose skills are in demand tend to work longer hours than the rest of us. If there were a better way to go about things, people reason, we would already be doing it.

There is a better way, but it requires understanding the reason why the present mode of thought exists. According to one perspective, when we work more we pay more taxes and this, along with our higher spending, leads to a more prosperous nation for everyone. This is not really true for the simple reason that people with lots of money do not spend all of it, and because welfare in the United States has never been nearly as rewarding as having a job. The idea that everyone must work full-time is, in fact, a legacy of the Cold War between the U.S. and the Soviet Union and the earlier wars of the human race.

Now, of course, with global trade and an information economy where someone 10,000 kilometers away can purchase your software as easily as someone in the same city, no one is interested in physical wars because commerce is much more profitable. Since it is so much more easier to obtain accurate information about and communicate with people in other countries, war no longer has a purpose and neither does the idea that everyone must pay as much taxes as possible by working full time.

Having decided this, it remains to be shown how we can transition to an economy where a significant number of educated workers spend less of their time working. By nature, many high-paying jobs have their value to the organization concentrated in a subset of tasks which moreover often cannot be done by anyone else, and it would not be fair to pretend that a linear reduction in time worked also results in a linear reduction in contribution to the organization. The easiest tasks are the first to be delegated and compensation must reflect this if working less is to be a viable option.

Organizations should therefore consider using a system similar to the one shown in the following chart. In some industries it might be more appropriate to consider full-time work to be defined on a yearly basis instead of a weekly one.

FlexComp.png


As it stands, the machinery of war does provide an additional option to those with economic misfortunes in the form of employment, even if it is at the risk of one's life. In this sense the military is not a bad thing. But it is unnecessary, if we create enough jobs through other means — something which, as a society, we are entirely capable of doing.

Originally from OWS forums
 
Good article..digging a hole and then filling it back in is hard work and can take many hours, but it produces very little.
We need to focus on productivity not just the hours worked.

Our country has moved away from producing (main do to regulations and taxes) which has hurt us in the global market.
 
To make my point clearer. What are these "high skilled jobs" you talk about? And what do they produce?

Manufacturing is a much different market then Healthcare.
 
When I wasa kid reading my weekly reader back in the 50s, Americans were told that our advancing techology would lead to less working and more affluence.

That didn't happen.

Why?

Well the technology made society richer, but the distribution of the growing wealth just didn't happen.


So today most Americans talented and lucky enough to still have jobs work longer hours for less purchasing power than the WWII generation typically did.

That excess newfound wealth has gone mostly to the top 10% of the population.

Those folks are truly wealthier than ever in history.

Right now the stats of wealth distribution are really facinating.

We have more millionaires than ever. That's a good thing.

We also have many time more people falling into poverty. That's not a good thing.

Hence the middle class shrinks and we continue to move toward the same kind of society once found in feudal times.

Not exact the promise that was made to us boomers back when we were in elemenatary school, let me tells yas.
 
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When I wasa kid reading my weekly reader back in the 50s, Americans were told that our advancing techology would lead to less working and more affluence.

That didn't happen.

Why?

Well the technology made society richer, but the distribution of the growing wealth just didn't happen.


So today most Americans talented and lucky enough to still have jobs work longer hours for less purchasing power than the WWII generation typically did.

That excess newfound wealth has gone mostly to the top 10% of the population.

Those folks are truly wealthier than ever in history.

Right now the stats of wealth distribution are really facinating.

We have more millionaires than ever. That's a good thing.

We also have many time more people falling into poverty. That's not a good thing.

Hence the middle class shrinks and we continue to move toward the same kind of society once found in feudal times.

Not exact the promise that was made to us boomers back when we were in elemenatary school, let me tells yas.

Careful how you make the comparisons.

Inflation is the measuring factor. Because of it we are needing to make more to have the same purchasing power as we did in the 50s. So someone making $50,000 in the 50s would be like making $100,000 today (not accurate just a example). So we should apply the same logic to the poverty level people and the rich millionaires.

I personally do not know the numbers but I believe we could have less wealth people as a whole then we did in the 50s.

Thank the Fed and government spending for the devalue of our dollar.
 
Careful how you make the comparisons.

Inflation is the measuring factor. Because of it we are needing to make more to have the same purchasing power as we did in the 50s. So someone making $50,000 in the 50s would be like making $100,000 today (not accurate just a example). So we should apply the same logic to the poverty level people and the rich millionaires.

I personally do not know the numbers but I believe we could have less wealth people as a whole then we did in the 50s.

Thank the Fed and government spending for the devalue of our dollar.

Another way of saying it is that wages haven't kept up with productivity. One chart:



More charts:
SWA-Wages | Table 4.1 | Average wages and work hours, 1967

Hours worked essentially unchanged from 1967, up about 6%. Hourly wages up 38% from 1967, 16% from 1973. Productivity is up 107% from 1967, 80% from 1973.

After unions began to decline, the reason for low wage growth is low bargaining power for individual workers due to high unemployment, leading to this:

Corporate Profits Just Hit An All-Time High, Wages Just Hit An All-Time Low - Business Insider


Working less is going so well for some of the EU members.
Bingo, look at Greece where people normally retired at about 55 and had a bloated and extremely non-productive public sector.

People in Greece work more than people in Germany.
Who works the longest hours in Europe? | News | guardian.co.uk
 
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Careful how you make the comparisons.

Inflation is the measuring factor. Because of it we are needing to make more to have the same purchasing power as we did in the 50s. So someone making $50,000 in the 50s would be like making $100,000 today (not accurate just a example). So we should apply the same logic to the poverty level people and the rich millionaires.

I personally do not know the numbers but I believe we could have less wealth people as a whole then we did in the 50s.

Thank the Fed and government spending for the devalue of our dollar.

Another way of saying it is that wages haven't kept up with productivity. One chart:



More charts:
SWA-Wages | Table 4.1 | Average wages and work hours, 1967

Hours worked essentially unchanged from 1967, up about 6%. Hourly wages up 38% from 1967, 16% from 1973. Productivity is up 107% from 1967, 80% from 1973.

After unions began to decline, the reason for low wage growth is low bargaining power for individual workers due to high unemployment, leading to this:

Corporate Profits Just Hit An All-Time High, Wages Just Hit An All-Time Low - Business Insider


Working less is going so well for some of the EU members.
Bingo, look at Greece where people normally retired at about 55 and had a bloated and extremely non-productive public sector.

People in Greece work more than people in Germany.
Who works the longest hours in Europe? | News | guardian.co.uk

The unions have very little to do with wage growth. Federal regulations and taxes are the major influence in wages.
 
The unions have very little to do with wage growth. Federal regulations and taxes are the major influence in wages.

Coincidence?


But high wages by themselves aren't actually the solution to unemployment. If a single person has more money (without working more), then they can spend more and employment goes up. But if everyone has more money, companies just raise prices. This is why there was stagflation in the 1970s.
 
The unions have very little to do with wage growth. Federal regulations and taxes are the major influence in wages.

Coincidence?


But high wages by themselves aren't actually the solution to unemployment. If a single person has more money (without working more), then they can spend more and employment goes up. But if everyone has more money, companies just raise prices. This is why there was stagflation in the 1970s.

No ...I don't.
Productivity and demand are the only things that produce higher wages.

Plus your logic is flawed. Just because we might be able to spend more doesn't mean it will help our economy. You need to ask yourself what are we buying and who makes it? If I go spend $2000 dollars to buy a 70" TV that is made in China....how does that help the US economy?

The reason for the decline is related to the lack of production in the US because of taxes and regulations. This makes it too expensive to run a business (thus hurts your productivity).

Of you want high wages...simplify the tax code and get rid of needless regulations then start producing again.
 
Working less is going so well for some of the EU members.

I know you meant that sarcastically, but it is true.

Germany is a perfect example of that.

The first thing they did when the depression hit was pressure their corporations to reduce hours so thatworkers were not laid off.

But doing so they negated much of the social pain that Americans are now dealing with.
 
Who works the longest hours in Europe? | News | guardian.co.uk[/url]
You know even less about Greece than you do about economics. In Greece the "working" hour is typically sitting around in your shop waiting for tourists or smoking and shuffling papers in government offices and occasionally trying to look busy when the occasion warrants it.

Greeks and the Mediterranean peoples in general are not productive enough to work fewer hours. As a German official undiplomatically said recently, 1000 German government employees do the work of 3000 Greek government employees, touching off a predictable and near violent protest in Thessaloniki.

I know this because I am a Greek citizen and an over 20-year resident of that country and have spent 2 summers clocking in 14 hours a day doing virtually nothing on the island of Mykonos.
 
Working less is going so well for some of the EU members.

I know you meant that sarcastically, but it is true.

Germany is a perfect example of that.

The first thing they did when the depression hit was pressure their corporations to reduce hours so thatworkers were not laid off.

But doing so they negated much of the social pain that Americans are now dealing with.

actually dear, short hours, does not fix a depression or recession, capitalism does. A recession is the time it takes the free market to correct the distortions caused by liberal interference.

For example, the liberal interest in getting everyone into a home caused the current depression; the cure is waiting while carpenters and real estate brokers etc train for and find new jobs.
 
No ...I don't.
Productivity and demand are the only things that produce higher wages.
You are saying that unions are unable to negotiate higher wages for workers? What is your explanation for the existence of unions then?

Plus your logic is flawed. Just because we might be able to spend more doesn't mean it will help our economy. You need to ask yourself what are we buying and who makes it? If I go spend $2000 dollars to buy a 70" TV that is made in China....how does that help the US economy?
The US is mostly a service economy. Since services see less export than physical goods do, most of the purchases of services come from within the US.

A nice article, which also links to a study by one of the Federal Reserve banks: How Much of US Consumables Are Made in China? | The Big Picture

(Since cost is not directly proportional to physical volume the percentages can be misleading, but the general point holds. Foreign imports include luxury goods too after all.)

The reason for the decline is related to the lack of production in the US because of taxes and regulations. This makes it too expensive to run a business (thus hurts your productivity).
The US actually rates very well in things like taxes and regulations, compared to China. Ranking of economies - Doing Business - World Bank Group

Not that high in ease of doing taxes, but it's not a major problem.

Besides, if taxes (and the cost of complying with regulations) were that big of a problem how do you explain $1.6 trillion in post-tax corporate profits?


You know even less about Greece than you do about economics. In Greece the "working" hour is typically sitting around in your shop waiting for tourists or smoking and shuffling papers in government offices and occasionally trying to look busy when the occasion warrants it.
Most governments are inefficient to some degree. That does not necessarily mean the private sector as as inefficient and bloated.

Other countries have inefficiency too. Example: Facebook at work more important than a large salary to college graduates | Mail Online

actually dear, short hours, does not fix a depression or recession, capitalism does. A recession is the time it takes the free market to correct the distortions caused by liberal interference.

For example, the liberal interest in getting everyone into a home caused the current depression; the cure is waiting while carpenters and real estate brokers etc train for and find new jobs.
What short hours does fix is unemployment.
How's That Hopey Changey Work Share Thing Doing? | CEPR Blog

Capitalism does not fix unemployment if innovations that destroy jobs are happening faster than innovations that create them. An article that describes this well:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/b...whoever-becomes-president.html?pagewanted=all

Lack of skills isn't the problem. I linked to plenty of good articles in post #3; here is another:
Why That Great Interview Didn't Land You a Job: Recruitment Intensity Rates and Mass Unemployment | Next New Deal

And the survey of small businesses, also showing that lack of skills no where near the main concern for most businesses:
Small Business Economic Trends Survey - NFIB Optimism Index
 
You are saying that unions are unable to negotiate higher wages for workers?

Yes unions get higher wages but the rest of then must get lower wages or higher prices because the amount of money in the economy does not change when a liberal union steals money from us. So wages stay the same on average.

As a typical liberal you will find that well over your head. Sorry


What is your explanation for the existence of unions then?

its the same as asking what is the existence of bank robbers for.
 
Yes unions get higher wages but the rest of then must get lower wages or higher prices because the amount of money in the economy does not change when a liberal union steals money from us. So wages stay the same on average.
Right. I prefer the shorter version but this other article is based on the simple concept of making income go to workers, not corporate profits:
How To Fix The Economy... In One Simple Chart - Business Insider

lower-profits-higher-wages.jpg


What is your explanation for the existence of unions then?

its the same as asking what is the existence of bank robbers for.
So you admit it is effective.

Although since both unions and bank robberies involve violence, or at least conflict, working less is a better solution as all conflict is resolved simply by ending the at-well employment arrangement and working for a different firm.
 
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