Working in Groups: Chain Gang Education?

[Samson]

"Sometimes, with some students, one technique works better than others."

Friere and the educrats do not allow different techniques, and specify a) teachers cannot be the 'sage on the stage,' but must remain the 'guide on the side.' And b) students teaching students is THE technique.
But it goes beyond the individual classroom, as progressive education does not believe in teaching a body of knowledge, or fact based content.
"The pedagogical point of Freire’s thesis : its opposition to taxing students with any actual academic content,..." Ibid.

This is ridiculous: No teacher is limited to just ONE technique.

However, lecturing for 45 minutes to students that are less than 15 years old is a pretty poor way of teaching. Try lecturing a 12 year old for 5 minutes, and you'll see what I mean

5. "...surprised that under any circumstances, even the Valhallah of Learning in Finland, students wouldn't be working in groups

I believe that we are discussing whether or not students should ever work together.
Absolutely they should, especially in the situation that you have chosen.
But not as a rule to the exclusion of a teacher who actually knows the subject.
In my experience, groupwork always broke down into one student actually doing the work and three copying it.
I suspect, without real evidence, that the formulation that champions this groupwork idea is based on the result: three lazy students will now pass, and 'feel good.'

As a teacher, I simply fucking LOVED giving groupwork to students. Primarily because it was so freakin EASY on me. I could spend an entire HOUR, sitting among one group of 4-5 students, then another, circulating among them all, threatening them with a dreaded 45 minute lecture if they weren't actually accomplishing half of what I wanted...Administrators would visit and walk away happy in the knowedge that Samson's teaching methods were in accordance with District Guidelines.

Everyone was Happy.

I really don't think many people know how infrequent this is in Public Schools, and they have no appreciation for it unless they've experienced it.

 

[chanel]

A good teacher presents the material, provides guided instruction and then group or individual practice. Activities in my class are changed up every ten or 15 mins. Kids are different now. They cannot attend for 45 mins anymore. The shame is that they are expected to sit for 3 hrs for a state test, or listen to a college professor for 90 mins and they've had no experience with it I don't know what the solution is, but these kids are ill-prepared for much of anything..

I don't agree with your idea of making high school voluntary, but I do believe we need to provide a different curriculum for the true college bound kids. Shakespeare is completely irrelevant to a kid who wants to work on a fishing boat.

 

[Samson]

A good teacher presents the material, provides guided instruction and then group or individual practice. Activities in my class are changed up every ten or 15 mins. Kids are different now. They cannot attend for 45 mins anymore. The shame is that they are expected to sit for 3 hrs for a state test, or listen to a college professor for 90 mins and they've had no experience with it I don't know what the solution is, but these kids are ill-prepared for much of anything..

I don't agree with your idea of making high school voluntary, but I do believe we need to provide a different curriculum for the true college bound kids. Shakespeare is completely irrelevant to a kid who wants to work on a fishing boat.

chanel, you rabble rouser!! Why are you trying to derail a thread about teaching in groups to voluntary High School?

****secretly wishes chanel would start a thread about Non Compusory High School****

Actually "Working in Groups" is something that's supposed to mirror "Working in Industry."

 

[uscitizen]

We still have industry to work in?

 

[Samson]

We still have industry to work in?

I actually HATE working in groups, in school AND in industry, which is why I've become a Beaver Trapper.

 

[uscitizen]

We still have industry to work in?

I actually HATE working in groups, in school AND in industry, which is why I've become a Beaver Trapper.

why I love retirement.


Beaver trapping is risky. Look what happened to tiger.

 

[random3434]

EVERY SINGLE TEACHER NEEDS TO TAKE A CLASS ON DIFFERENTIATED INSTRUCTION.

I can't emphasize that enough.


CAST: Differentiated Instruction

 

[uscitizen]

EVERY SINGLE TEACHER NEEDS TO TAKE A CLASS ON DIFFERENTIATED INSTRUCTION.

I can't emphasize that enough.


CAST: Differentiated Instruction

Kinda hard to do with the large class sizes and such.

classes should be grouped according to capability and allowed or pushed to progress as fast as they can.
Why should it take every one 12 years to complete their basic schooling?

It oinly took me 11. I skipped 5th grade.

 

[Truthmatters]

Smaller classes is a big key along with smaller schools.

High schools are too damn big , there are too many kids for the staff to know them. They end up all getting treated like suspected criminals instead of helping get a sense of coummunity.

Differentiated learning would be great and would work much better in a smaller formatted setting.

 

[Samson]

Smaller classes is a big key along with smaller schools.

High schools are too damn big , there are too many kids for the staff to know them. They end up all getting treated like suspected criminals instead of helping get a sense of coummunity.

Differentiated learning would be great and would work much better in a smaller formatted setting.

Move out to the country and buy a double wide next to UScitizen if you want a Little House on The Prairie.

Anyway I remember going to Grad school to get my MBA and ALWAYS having to work on group projects. It was karma for having made my poor physics students work in assigned groups.

The first semester, I let the kids choose their own groups. The Alpha Group would get all the kids that wanted to get it done, quickly, efficiently and would sweat out which font to use when they typed up the final draft a week in advance. Then there'd be the Gamma Group (George Orwell, anyone?). The Gammas would do nothing until the day before the project was due, and spend most of their time arugeing about who would complete the cover page.

The second semester I assigned an Alpha to every two or three Gammas so the Alphas could get a taste of Real Life. Quite a shock for them to discover that "They don't want to do ANYTHING, Mr. SAMSON!!!!!"

LMAO

 

[Diuretic]

"Sometimes, with some students, one technique works better than others."

Friere and the educrats do not allow different techniques, and specify a) teachers cannot be the 'sage on the stage,' but must remain the 'guide on the side.' And b) students teaching students is THE technique.
But it goes beyond the individual classroom, as progressive education does not believe in teaching a body of knowledge, or fact based content.
"The pedagogical point of Freire’s thesis : its opposition to taxing students with any actual academic content,..." Ibid.

This is ridiculous: No teacher is limited to just ONE technique.

However, lecturing for 45 minutes to students that are less than 15 years old is a pretty poor way of teaching. Try lecturing a 12 year old for 5 minutes, and you'll see what I mean

5. "...surprised that under any circumstances, even the Valhallah of Learning in Finland, students wouldn't be working in groups

I believe that we are discussing whether or not students should ever work together.
Absolutely they should, especially in the situation that you have chosen.
But not as a rule to the exclusion of a teacher who actually knows the subject.
In my experience, groupwork always broke down into one student actually doing the work and three copying it.
I suspect, without real evidence, that the formulation that champions this groupwork idea is based on the result: three lazy students will now pass, and 'feel good.'

As a teacher, I simply fucking LOVED giving groupwork to students. Primarily because it was so freakin EASY on me. I could spend an entire HOUR, sitting among one group of 4-5 students, then another, circulating among them all, threatening them with a dreaded 45 minute lecture if they weren't actually accomplishing half of what I wanted...Administrators would visit and walk away happy in the knowedge that Samson's teaching methods were in accordance with District Guidelines.

Everyone was Happy.

I really don't think many people know how infrequent this is in Public Schools, and they have no appreciation for it unless they've experienced it.

I don't know why but the extracts annoy the hell out of me. Perhaps it's because I've learned that prescriptions in teaching and learning are bullshit. I remember the derisory comments about "the sage on the stage" when I first started studying adult education back in the late 1980s at uni as an undergraduate. I sucked it in because I didn't know better.

I'm quite happy with the concept of "guide on the side", it's just another role that any competent educator has to be able to carry out.

I'm also quite happy with the "sage on the stage" routine and this might be ego babbling but I like to think that delivering a two or three or eight hour session using appropriate visual aids (and appropriate breaks) is also something a competent educator should be able to do.

Anyway, back to the point. Surely groupwork is a useful method for any educator? I'm drawn to the idea of social constructivism and in particular Vygtosky - although I have to admit I am thinking of a limited application, a dyadic relationship between the More Knowledgeable Other and the learner and also his Zone of Proximal Development idea. I'm looking at it in a specific situation as well (on the job learning) so it might not be appropriate in a classroom of adolescent learners. But I still think groupwork is useful. In adult education though it can be over-used. One lecturer I remember used to make us sit in bean bags for her sessions. That was a bit too much for even me. Sometimes adult learners just need to sit back and absorb what the sage out front has to say.

 

[Samson]

One lecturer I remember used to make us sit in bean bags for her sessions. That was a bit too much for even me. Sometimes adult learners just need to sit back and absorb what the sage out front has to say.

It could have been worse: in the '70's they would have set you down nekkid in bean bag chairs.

The Lecturn works much better for adults, who are mature enough to entertain themselves without interrupting, or they are actually interested, or they might be repremanded (on the job) for inattention, or they've been given the option of simply not attending (as many university professors will give).

One of the most challenging things I've done has been put into a room full of 13 year olds for 4 hours, EVERY WEEKDAY, for 6 weeks to teach Math (summer school). I could only lecture, maybe 30-45 minutes of this total time, only 10 minutes at a time. Groupwork saved my ass, and my sanity.