Words From The Past!!

[Navy1960]

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.


I really have nothing to add to this , except to say, that history often teaches us all a lesson, if we only take the time to sit back and listen. The words of Mr. Tyler are very telling and point directly to some of the ill's that we are facing today IMHO.

 

[Luissa]

Here is one for you, probably seen it!

"25 There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume. "

And here is the rest of Washington's farewell address. Presidents have followed a lot of what Washington did when it came to the Presidency!

George Washington's Farewell Address

 

[Navy1960]

did you know the quote that is attributed to Tyler is actually Alexander Fraser Tytler and as things tend to get watered down from the original, I thought in the interest of being correct here I would post the exact quote.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

I have Luissa read George Washington's farewell address and am a big fan of all his letters and writings. It's very interesting how the works of these men translates still to todays issues isn't it?

 

[xsited1]

From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.

And we have two candidates running for President that voted for an unconstitutional bail-out bill:

John McCain
Barack Obama

One of these two will become President.

Looks like our time is almost up.

 

[Navy1960]

Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.
John Adams, Letter, April 15, 1814

Do you think that perhaps John Adams knew of the good professors works and perhaps was in agreement with them?

 

[Wade]

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

Nice.

Modern translation: When the leeches outnumber to providers, were screwed.

So, is the only answer to nullify the vote of the leeches, or distract them with another alternative food source?

 

[Navy1960]

Nice.

Modern translation: When the leeches outnumber to providers, were screwed.

So, is the only answer to nullify the vote of the leeches, or distract them with another alternative food source?

"Those who want to reap the benefits of this great nation must bear the fatigue of supporting it. "
Thomas Payne

Again, Wade the wisdom of those that created this great nation still translates today. So in the end, it comes to a choice as I read John Adams and Mr. Tytler and that choice is to always strive to make this nation better for generations to come, or sit back and take from it and watch it die and leave nothing. A very simple choice it seems if one trusts in the values that made this nation great, self reliance, personal responsibility and love of ones family and country.

 

[Wade]

"Those who want to reap the benefits of this great nation must bear the fatigue of supporting it. "
Thomas Payne

Again, Wade the wisdom of those that created this great nation still translates today. So in the end, it comes to a choice as I read John Adams and Mr. Tytler and that choice is to always strive to make this nation better for generations to come, or sit back and take from it and watch it die and leave nothing. A very simple choice it seems if one trusts in the values that made this nation great, self reliance, personal responsibility and love of ones family and country.

But, all residents of this great country reap benefits from it. Whether it be protection, food, shelter, or personal rights (a very rare benefit). Should not all strive, for all receive? And if some choice decay, what should be the response of the striver's, to protect their benefit and their offspring's benefits?

 

[Navy1960]

But, all residents of this great country reap benefits from it. Whether it be protection, food, shelter, or personal rights (a very rare benefit). Should not all strive, for all receive? And if some choice decay, what should be the response of the striver's, to protect their benefit and their offspring's benefits?

Wade in every society even our's your going to have those that choose not to do for themselves even though they are able to do so. While you can offer them a hand up, and can continue to do so IMHO in the form of job training, and education so that they may want to make a better life for themselves. In no case should you offer them a hand out. We as a society have an obilgation to take care of the elderly and those that are unable to take care of themselves, the handicapped, and the disabled. IMO a society is measured by the compassion it has for it's elderly and those that cannot do for themselves. However, those that choose to sit in decay you can have compassion for them but that is all , and you can offer them the hand up but if they choose not to take that hand , then you must walk forward for both youself and yoour children and your country. If a government mandates that you offer a handout to those that are able to take care of themselves but choose not too, then government has mandated decay IMHO.

 

[Wade]

Wade in every society even our's your going to have those that choose not to do for themselves even though they are able to do so. While you can offer them a hand up, and can continue to do so IMHO in the form of job training, and education so that they may want to make a better life for themselves. In no case should you offer them a hand out. We as a society have an obilgation to take care of the elderly and those that are unable to take care of themselves, the handicapped, and the disabled. IMO a society is measured by the compassion it has for it's elderly and those that cannot do for themselves. However, those that choose to sit in decay you can have compassion for them but that is all , and you can offer them the hand up but if they choose not to take that hand , then you must walk forward for both youself and yoour children and your country. If a government mandates that you offer a handout to those that are able to take care of themselves but choose not too, then government has mandated decay IMHO.

IMHO, your HO is he the right O. (I agree)

The trillion dollar question, is how to steer the government to representing those that strive, and those that want to better themselves.

 

[Navy1960]

IMHO, your HO is he the right O. (I agree)

The trillion dollar question, is how to steer the government to representing those that strive, and those that want to better themselves.

It starts by holding the government to ethical standards, and getting our elected officials to do what they are elected to do and that is to represent the interests of the people that send them there and not what group happens to have the most money on K Street in Washington. Further, if these same people we elect choose not to listen to those that vote from them as in the case of many in the reecent "bailout bill" then we voice our displeasure in the voting booth. Americans need IMO to start voting for candidates rather than party's and in addition to that stop voting over and over again for the same person to represent them even after they have committed crimes, ethics violations, and a whole host of other things. I am always amazed a few months after an election when a friend or two will say why that congressmen so and so did this, and it's the same person they keep voting for over and over.

 

[Wade]

It starts by holding the government to ethical standards, and getting our elected officials to do what they are elected to do and that is to represent the interests of the people that send them there and not what group happens to have the most money on K Street in Washington. Further, if these same people we elect choose not to listen to those that vote from them as in the case of many in the reecent "bailout bill" then we voice our displeasure in the voting booth. Americans need IMO to start voting for candidates rather than party's and in addition to that stop voting over and over again for the same person to represent them even after they have committed crimes, ethics violations, and a whole host of other things. I am always amazed a few months after an election when a friend or two will say why that congressmen so and so did this, and it's the same person they keep voting for over and over.

One possible solution I heard, was to return the Senate to the states. Allow the state senates to elect the Federal Senate representatives. Protection of states rights. Allow the House to be elected by the people.

The problem with voting for any politician, is they lie. And, I have learned to never trust them. There needs to be a way to hold them accountable to their actual actions. Need to think on this more.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.


I really have nothing to add to this , except to say, that history often teaches us all a lesson, if we only take the time to sit back and listen. The words of Mr. Tyler are very telling and point directly to some of the ill's that we are facing today IMHO.

Good post.

Unfortunately, Americans are completely incapable of changing the course we are on.

I almost look forward to the complete collapse of our present system.

 

[AVG-JOE]

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.


I really have nothing to add to this , except to say, that history often teaches us all a lesson, if we only take the time to sit back and listen. The words of Mr. Tyler are very telling and point directly to some of the ill's that we are facing today IMHO.

If you believe the average life-span stated as 200 years, considering the vast resources on the American Continent that were relatively undefended and there for the taking; and that resource discovery and development (wealth creation) were Americas first line of wealth distribution, America is looking old for her age.

-Joe

 

[Luissa]

did you know the quote that is attributed to Tyler is actually Alexander Fraser Tytler and as things tend to get watered down from the original, I thought in the interest of being correct here I would post the exact quote.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

I have Luissa read George Washington's farewell address and am a big fan of all his letters and writings. It's very interesting how the works of these men translates still to todays issues isn't it?

It is interesting along with your quote and I think if we don't get out of the finacial crisis soon are days of being a super power are limited. People in this country sometimes don't think about the fact we are young and many super powers have fallen before us.

 

[editec]

You guys really want a stable government?

Try feudalism.

No forms of government in Western Civilization (or for that matter any of the five great human civilization) lasted longer or was more stable than feudal societes.

Now, knowing that, do you STILL want a stable government?

 

[Navy1960]

As I have stated , the course though is not a given, it boils down to a choice, and that choice appears to be a simple one at least to me. The choice is to adhere to the values that made this country what is , or admit that we no long accept those values and sit back and let it rot on the vine. It does seem like a simple concept, however for some, this concept is lost in a sea of self indulgence. Perhaps, again we will hold up success to mean family, home, education, self reliance, and things such as honor and courage will have meaning rather than who scored the most points or how well someone did in the last game of X-Box360. In our self indulgence and while we have let our young bury their heads inside mindless entertainment we have let the country created by the blood and tears of millions that came before us lapse into malaise. So IMHO it is a choice, it is never too late, to walk in a direction of our own choosing, we only lose when we stop and give up hope. Which I never intend to do.