Woman Denied An Abortion, Dies In Hospital

[whitehall]

How does back pain justify an abortion? I smell a big fat rat. According to the article, the life signs of the unborn were fine when the woman allegedly requested the hospital to terminate her pregnancy because she complained of back pain. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to conclude that the woman might have attempted to terminate the life of her healthy unborn on her own and died of it.

 

[AmyNation]

There are 3 articles in this thread, and my understand is this story has made international headlines.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Probably. Who knows...you certainly don't. And you don't know why they didn't operate. My guess was they didn't operate because she was dying of septicemia, but who knows.

She took awhile to die, though. In that time, she could have been treated.

What makes you assume she wasn't? Just the fact that she wasn't given the all-holy abortion that you think is the be-all and end-all of women's healthcare? This leads you to assume they merely stood around with their thumbs up their asses and did nothing about the blood poisoning, does it?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Abortion Review: Ireland: Medical Council clarifies position on abortion

Medical Council - Medical Council - Public Information


This group oversees these matters in Ireland.

From the link:

According to Section 21 of the Guide to Professional Conduct and Ethics for Registered Medical Practitioners - 7th Edition, abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantiated risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother, the Irish Medical Times reports.

Whoops! Oh, look, contrary to what the armchair physicians on this board have decided, she was NOT denied an abortion because some "crazed religious theocracy made all abortions illegal in Ireland".

So either they didn't operate because they were bad at their jobs, or there was some other reason. Whatever the cause, legal restrictions on abortions were not it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It is unfortunate that the innocent child died as well as the mother who sought to kill it.

Otherwise, a hospital should not be in the business of choosing one life over another. It made the right decision. And as much as this may bother people, it's better that nature took its course than for an institution of healing to murder for the sake of favoring another life.

What the hell are you babbling about, "the mother who sought to kill it"? Did I miss something in the story, where the mother didn't want the baby? I could have sworn the story said she was having an miscarriage.

By the way, you're also a fucking moron. Medical personnel often have to make life-or-death decisions, and it is unfortunately not unheard-of for them to have to choose to end a pregnancy in order to save the mother's life. Only a complete dipshit could think it would be "the right decision" to do nothing and let both of them die.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Seems she was having a miscarriage, but it was incomplete. She was in great pain, and after 24 hours she begged doctors for an abortion, to end the pregnancy as quick as possible. As the fetus still had a heartbeat, she was denied the abortion.
Finally, the fetus died, and the woman developed blood poisoning and died a week later:

Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun

This was in Ireland, where abortion is illegal, so the doctors claimed they couldn't do anything because the heart was still beating, but they should have given her something to help nature along, to end her suffering.

She was told that it could not be done because Ireland is a Catholic country.

That's what the article said...of course not actually quoting something. And the same article also cites an unnamed study that *proves* there are no negative side effects of abortion.

But the LAW is that the hospital can perform emergency abortions if the life of the mother, or the mental health of the mother, is in jeopardy and the baby is what puts her in jeopardy.

So if you come in off the street and say your back hurts and you want an abortion, you aren't going to get it.

If you come in off the street, you have a raging fever and a back ache and you're pregnant and say you want an abortion, they're going to say "we need to treat the infection before risking the procedure".

This isn't rocket science. It's amazing how ignorant people are of medicine...who insist on interjecting themselves into the conversation, second guessing medical professionals based on...nothing.

What?! You mean we shouldn't listen to armchair doctors who diagnose total strangers in Ireland from Australia?!

 

[Cecilie1200]

How does back pain justify an abortion? I smell a big fat rat. According to the article, the life signs of the unborn were fine when the woman allegedly requested the hospital to terminate her pregnancy because she complained of back pain. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to conclude that the woman might have attempted to terminate the life of her healthy unborn on her own and died of it.

Depends on why you have back pain. As Kosher pointed out, back pain can be a symptom of some very serious and life-threatening illnesses, like kidney failure.

The main impression I got from the article is that there's a LOT of this story they're not telling us because it doesn't fit their agenda.

 

[Political Junky]

There had been a partial miscarriage. What fool wanted to save half of a fetus?

 

[Emoslasher]

^so you are one of those who believe a fetus is more important than the life of the mother.

Would you support a procedure that would guarantee the death of the mother to ensure the unborn child survives?

If not, why is it acceptable the other way around?

Because it's not possible for it to happen that way....

The fact that it's not possible is irrelevant. A life is not something weighed against another life.

 

[Emoslasher]

It is unfortunate that the innocent child died as well as the mother who sought to kill it.

Otherwise, a hospital should not be in the business of choosing one life over another. It made the right decision. And as much as this may bother people, it's better that nature took its course than for an institution of healing to murder for the sake of favoring another life.

What the ---- are you babbling about, "the mother who sought to kill it"? Did I miss something in the story, where the mother didn't want the baby? I could have sworn the story said she was having an miscarriage.

She was trying to murder a baby who was still alive just because it was hurting her.

By the way, you're also a ------- moron. Medical personnel often have to make life-or-death decisions, and it is unfortunately not unheard-of for them to have to choose to end a pregnancy in order to save the mother's life. Only a complete ------- could think it would be "the right decision" to do nothing and let both of them die.

Just because our laws and medical practices allow for the "emergency" murder of the unborn doesn't make it right.

The only person that should be playing G-d, is G-d. To sacrifice the life of one for the security of the other is to commit murder. There's no equivocation to that.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Seems she was having a miscarriage, but it was incomplete. She was in great pain, and after 24 hours she begged doctors for an abortion, to end the pregnancy as quick as possible. As the fetus still had a heartbeat, she was denied the abortion.
Finally, the fetus died, and the woman developed blood poisoning and died a week later:

A WOMAN has died of blood poisoning from a miscarriage, after an Irish hospital denied her an abortion telling her "this is a Catholic country".
Digital Pass - $5 weekend papers

The tragedy comes as the country is in the throes of a passionate debate over potential abortion law reform.

The Irish Times reports that both the hospital and the health department have begun investigations into the death at University Hospital Galway last month.

Savita Halappanavar, 31, a dentist who was 17 weeks pregnant, went to the hospital with back pain on October 21.

Her husband Praveen Halappanavar said she was told she was miscarrying, and after one day of severe pain she asked for a medical termination.

Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun

This was in Ireland, where abortion is illegal, so the doctors claimed they couldn't do anything because the heart was still beating, but they should have given her something to help nature along, to end her suffering.

Life sucks, then you die.

 

[Emoslasher]

It is unfortunate that the innocent child died as well as the mother who sought to kill it.

Otherwise, a hospital should not be in the business of choosing one life over another. It made the right decision. And as much as this may bother people, it's better that nature took its course than for an institution of healing to murder for the sake of favoring another life.

What if the mother/parents signed a waiver agreeing to accept legal responsibility for the decision she asked for? So the hospital/staff would not be held liable for following their wishes. If it turned out to be murder under the law, then they agree to face those consequences, not the doctor or hospital. And if it turned out the baby or mother dies, then they agree to the legal responsibility, etc.

None of that matters. You're talking legalities. But if the hospital murdered a baby, the blood soaks their nitrite gloves whether they're legally liable or not.

 

[Noomi]

More women go through childbirth than go through abortions. So what?

In Ireland, abortion is legal to save the life of the mother. There's nothing in that article that "proves" an abortion would have saved this woman's life. She died of septicemia...and NOT from a dead fetus, as the baby's heart was still beating.

So please come up with another goofy theory that will allow you to pretend she died because she wasn't aborted quickly enough when she came in, sick and probably incoherent, and demanded an abortion.

From what I have read, the Supreme Court ruled that abortion should be legal to save the life of the mother, but the government never put that ruling into law. That leaves the doctors in a sticky situation.

Also, in updates I have read today, she was in labor for three days before the fetus finally died - after she collapsed in a bathroom, and still refused an abortion.
This has nothing to do with risk, and everything to do with an idiotic country who believes a woman's life comes second to a fetus.

 

[Noomi]

How does back pain justify an abortion? I smell a big fat rat. According to the article, the life signs of the unborn were fine when the woman allegedly requested the hospital to terminate her pregnancy because she complained of back pain. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to conclude that the woman might have attempted to terminate the life of her healthy unborn on her own and died of it.

She was having a miscarriage, and that was certain. Doctors told her that, and they simply had to wait until the fetus died.

I wish people would stop disputing the facts of this case.

 

[koshergrl]

Abortion Review: Ireland: Medical Council clarifies position on abortion

Medical Council - Medical Council - Public Information


This group oversees these matters in Ireland.

From the link:

According to Section 21 of the Guide to Professional Conduct and Ethics for Registered Medical Practitioners - 7th Edition, abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantiated risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother, the Irish Medical Times reports.

Whoops! Oh, look, contrary to what the armchair physicians on this board have decided, she was NOT denied an abortion because some "crazed religious theocracy made all abortions illegal in Ireland".

So either they didn't operate because they were bad at their jobs, or there was some other reason. Whatever the cause, legal restrictions on abortions were not it.

Exactly! I've pointed that out no fewer than half a dozen times, I think. But they don't want to hear it.

 

[koshergrl]

How does back pain justify an abortion? I smell a big fat rat. According to the article, the life signs of the unborn were fine when the woman allegedly requested the hospital to terminate her pregnancy because she complained of back pain. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to conclude that the woman might have attempted to terminate the life of her healthy unborn on her own and died of it.

She was having a miscarriage, and that was certain. Doctors told her that, and they simply had to wait until the fetus died.

I wish people would stop disputing the facts of this case.

You don't have the facts. Her husband said she waas having a miscarriage. I also thought she had possibly attempted to abort the baby, or her husband had attempted to do it for her, and suffered complications...are you a doctor, noomi? I know for a fact that if she had a raging infection when she came in, as it sounds like she did, they WILL NOT perform surgical or other procedures, for fear of compromising the heart and other organs. They will treat the infection and as soon as it's under control, move forward with other medical treatment as needed. If a pregnant woman comes in complaining of back pain and with an infection, they aren't going to rush to abort her. It would be foolish.

Or, as Cecilie pointed out, perhaps the doctors were just wrong not to do it. But the LAW PROVIDES to allow them to remove the baby if the baby is threat to her health/life. So the law is not the reason this poor woman was killed by her killer fetus.

 

[Cecilie1200]

There had been a partial miscarriage. What fool wanted to save half of a fetus?

What fool decided there was only "half a fetus"?

Oh, wait, that was you, just now.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Would you support a procedure that would guarantee the death of the mother to ensure the unborn child survives?

If not, why is it acceptable the other way around?

Because it's not possible for it to happen that way....

The fact that it's not possible is irrelevant. A life is not something weighed against another life.

Of course it is. All the time. It's part of life. Ever been in a combat hospital, and watched them triage patients? They're deciding which ones have enough of a chance of survival to warrant the time and resources available. Ever been in an emergency room, when they get slammed with all the victims in a multi-car pileup or an explosion or something? They're doing the same thing.

That is not to say, however, that it's okay to simply dismiss a life as "not really alive at all" because it makes things easier and more convenient for you. One needs to treat such decisions with gravity and respect, not make them lightly.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Okay, let's see if we can clarify the details just a bit here, rather than having to run on this person's or that person's interjection of his own personal hobby horse as a substitute for facts.

From ABCnews.com:

Savita Halappanavar was 17 weeks pregnant when she arrived at University Hospital Galway in Ireland, complaining of back pain, her husband, Praveen Halappanavar, told the Irish Times. Doctors told Halappanavar she was miscarrying, but they reportedly refused to terminate the pregnancy as long as there was a fetal heartbeat, because, they said, Ireland was a "Catholic country."

* * * *

Abortion is illegal in Ireland unless continuing a pregnancy would endanger a woman's life. But [Deputy Prime Minister Eamon] Gilmore said certain circumstances cloud the interpretation of the law.

* * * *

At the Galway University Hospital, Halappanavar's fetal heartbeat stopped nearly three days after she arrived on Oct. 21. Doctors evacuated Halappanavar's uterus, but she died of septicemia, or blood poisoning, on Oct. 28, according the Irish Times, which cited the autopsy report.

* * * *

Halappanavar's husband told the Irish Times the couple had repeatedly asked doctors to end the pregnancy, and were refused even though his wife's cervix was fully dilated and her amniotic fluid was leaking. The night after the fetal heartbeat stopped and doctors cleared the uterus, he got a call from the hospital.

"They said they were shifting her to intensive care," Praveen Halappanavar told the Irish Times. "Her heart and pulse were low, her temperature was high. She was sedated and critical but stable. She stayed stable on Friday, but by 7 p.m. on Saturday they said her heart, kidneys and liver weren't functioning. She was critically ill. That night, we lost her."

* * * *

Ireland Pledges to Clarify Abortion Laws After Death of Miscarrying Woman - ABC News

So it seems like they're saying, when you cut through all the speculation, that the doctors COULD have legally aborted the miscarrying fetus, they themselves were not entirely clear on what the law was in that regard.

From CNN.com:

Savita Halappanavar, 31, went into a hospital on October 21, complaining of back pain. She was 17 weeks pregnant at the time.

The doctors who examined her told her she was having a miscarriage but denied her an abortion even though she was in extreme pain, her husband has said. Halappanavar died at the hospital, leading lawmakers to call for an investigation into what role abortion laws may have played in her death.

* * * *

Halappanavar was told that the miscarriage would be over in a matter of hours, said Kitty Holland, who reported the story for the Irish Times.

But the hours kept ticking and Halappanavar remained in terrible pain, so her husband asked doctors to expedite the miscarriage by carrying out an abortion.

Doctors at Galway University Hospital said that as long as the fetal heartbeat could be felt, the law prevented them from ending the pregnancy, Holland said. Halappanavar died of septicemia, or a blood infection, after three days in the hospital.

Woman's death prompts abortion debate in Ireland - CNN.com

Kind of amazing how much of this article was speculation and agenda-pushing. Seems to support the idea that the doctors were very unclear on what the limits of the law were.

From Newsmax.com:

Halappanavar, a 31-year-old Indian immigrant, was admitted to Galway University Hospital in late October complaining of back pains. Examining physicians informed her that she was having a miscarriage and asked her and her husband to allow the miscarriage to take its course before removing the body of the 4-month-old fetus.

According to The Guardian, it took three days for the fetus to die. Despite attempts by the hospital to improve Halappanavar’s health, she died within a week of septicaemia, a blood infection that caused her kidneys and liver to stop working.

* * * *

According to doctors at the hospital, the abortion was not performed when requested by Halappanavar’s husband during the three day miscarriage because under Irish law abortion is prohibited while the baby’s heart is still beating, which was the case in Halappanavar's situation.

Ireland Abortion Law Under Fire After Death of Savita Halappanavar

So again, it seems that the doctors just REALLY didn't understand the law in relation to miscarriages, which seems very odd to me. American doctors usually know the legality of their jobs to a fare-thee-well, with not only an eye toward prosecution, but also toward malpractice.

From Foxnews.com:

Halappanavar's husband, Praveen, said doctors at University Hospital Galway in western Ireland determined that his wife was miscarrying within hours of her hospitalization for severe pain on Oct. 21. He said over the next three days, doctors refused their requests for an abortion to combat her searing pain and fading health.

It was only after the fetus died that its remains were surgically removed. Within hours, Savita was placed under sedation in intensive care with blood poisoning, her husband said. By Oct. 27, her heart, kidneys and liver had stopped working, and she was pronounced dead the next day.

* * * *

Ireland's constitution officially bans abortion, but a 1992 Supreme Court ruling said the procedure should be legalized for situations when the woman's life is at risk from continuing the pregnancy. Five governments since have refused to pass a law resolving the confusion, leaving Irish hospitals reluctant to terminate pregnancies except in the most obviously life-threatening circumstances.
Indian woman's parents decry Irish abortion laws after daughter dies | Fox News

Apparently, Ireland is less willing to let judges simply tell them what the laws are and should be than Americans are. They probably have some funny notion that words mean things.

So it looks like what we've got is a gray area between what the law actually says and what the courts are prepared to prosecute that has left doctors in Ireland confused and reluctant to take risks. While I can respect, in general, a country actually adhering to its written laws, rather than merely assuming they're mutable as and whenever someone wants them to be, I think it's completely unacceptable for them to have left this particular are of law in such a mess, all but inviting something like this to happen.

 

[koshergrl]

There had been a partial miscarriage. What fool wanted to save half of a fetus?

What fool decided there was only "half a fetus"?

Oh, wait, that was you, just now.

Wow. Half a fetus now. This is insane story #5 (I think), completely concocted in the minds of usmb pro-abortion lunatics.

Anyway, it it was "half a fetus" or not, it still had a heart beat. At least that's what the article said.

Though that article is so ridiculous I wouldn't be surprised if the real story is that the hospital AGREED to give her an abortion, the abortion went terribly wrong, the woman died, and they came up with this farce to hide it.

It's like the Irish medical equivalent of benghazi.