WMD's

[5.10 leader]

It has been reported today that in the US a report has been produced which has finally concluded that the threat from WMD's was exagerated by the Bush Administration. As the claim is from a left-of-centre organisation, however, the question of the credibility of their report must be extant

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3378467.stm

What's new in the Carnegie Institutes claim, however? In the UK that argument is old hat now. Blairs latest stance is that the war was fought as a humanitarian act, WMD's have become stale news.

Whatever the reasons, it just seems that vested interests are producing any hypothesis and, to justify their arguments, plucking all kinds of nefarious facts seemingly from mid-air in justification of their particular stance.

The fact is that the war has been fought and that we should now concentrate on reconciliation and rebuilding Iraq. The extensive soul searching and recriminations by the woolly liberals will achieve absolutely nothing other than to give free propoganda to the cause of the Islamic fundamentalists.

 

[Palestinian Jew]

The extensive soul searching and recriminations by the woolly liberals will achieve absolutely nothing other than to give free propoganda to the cause of the Islamic fundamentalists.

I do not agree with that, but I do agree that we are there, so we might as well deal with it rather than continue arguing.

 

[DKSuddeth]

how about holding those responsible for the deception accountable?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
how about holding those responsible for the deception accountable?

Who do you hold responsible? Is there any proof of purposeful deception?

 

[DKSuddeth]

there SHOULD be enough to start a serious investigation, That got stonewalled by Frist, didn't it?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
there SHOULD be enough to start a serious investigation, That got stonewalled by Frist, didn't it?

I wouldn't be against an investigation. 'If' there was deception given to the American public, there should be some heads rolling. I really don't see that myself, but I have no problem with an investigation.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
how about holding those responsible for the deception accountable?

I don't think so, neither does Colin Powell:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq_7

 

[jon_forward]

it is an open secret in the military that the WMD that were in the hands of the saddam and co are now across the border in syria...i have no links to prove this...just my bro's HO as a nco-ncb 490 plus days in the sand and 28 plus years in the corp....I tend to believe what he says

 

[lilcountriegal]

it is an open secret in the military that the WMD that were in the hands of the saddam and co are now across the border in syria...i have no links to prove this...just my bro's HO as a nco-ncb 490 plus days in the sand and 28 plus years in the corp....I tend to believe what he says

I actually read an article on this on WND. Popular belief is that Syria and Iran both smuggled some of the WMD across the borders. I debated whether to post the link but opted out of it since I didnt want to hear "what a biased source" WND was. Now since the topic is out there, I think I'll go hunt that link down... just for those who are curious as to what intel we have on the Syria-Iran/WMD connection.

 

[lilcountriegal]

I cant seem to find the World Net Daily article in their archives. I did, however, come across this article, dated January 8, 2004, from UPI. It seems the question is out there, I guess it's being investigated. I'll hunt for more tomorrow while at work when I have more time.

=============
Some U.S. officials believe Syrians are hiding Saddam's weapons
By RICHARD SALE, United Press International
(Published Thursday, January 8th, 2004 07:02:45 PM)

(UPI) - Some U.S. intelligence agencies believe that rogue elements of Syria's ruling elite have accepted millions of dollars in bribes in return for providing a safe haven for some of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, according to former and serving U.S. officials.

Chemical and biological weapons were taken by truck to a Syrian munitions compound near a military base near Khan Abu Shamet, about 50 miles northeast of Damascus, these officials told United Press International.

The chief suspects in the operation are Bushra al Assad, the sister of Syrian President Bashar al Assad, and her husband Gen. Assaf Chawkat, the No. 2 in Syria's military intelligence organization, the Mukhabarat.

U.S. officials - most recently President George W. Bush - have charged that Iraq is moving around production and storage facilities for chemical and biological weapons to hide them from U.N. inspectors charged with disarming the regime.

The allegation that Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein was trying to hide suspected weapons of mass destruction in Syria was first made - somewhat hesitantly - on Dec. 23 by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

"We are in the process of verification of these (intelligence) reports," Sharon told Israeli television. "What we assume - and again I say, we have not yet finalized the reports - is that weapons that he (Saddam) wanted to hide - chemical weapons, biological weapons - were indeed transferred to Syria."

The claim was repeated and firmed up by his foreign minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, last month: "Those intelligence reports (about the alleged transfer) are solid," he said on Jan. 19, according to the Canadian Broadcasting Corp.

But the U.S. intelligence community is not so sure and appears to be divided.

At a recent Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing, Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage was questioned about reports that weapons of mass destruction had been moved around Christmastime from Iraq into Syria.

Armitage replied: "I would say there's been a debate in the administration ... (in) the intelligence community ... I don't think we know the definitive. I've seen the report you referred to. And I've seen other reports.

"Now, I can't give you a level of credibility on other reports as to whether missiles are in other countries. Those countries whom we've approached with our suspicions have vehemently denied (them)."

Many in the U.S. intelligence community believe the story to be an Israeli concoction. Former CIA counter-terrorism chief Vince Cannistraro strongly denounced it. "The CIA has found no corroborating intelligence on this," he told UPI.

A former Israeli intelligence official said the unwillingness to believe the Israeli reports was political at bottom: "The Bush administration does not want to confront the Syrians, even though they are bad news and working all along with Saddam," he said. Israeli intelligence had given the White House reports about the transfer, he said, but "the administration dismissed it."

"There is an institutional bias in Washington against taking on Syria," the former Israeli operative said.

"I think the White House thought Israeli intelligence off the wall or else an attempt at propaganda," said Patrick Clawson of the Washington Institute for Middle East Policy.

A former senior Pentagon official said he believed the actions of Chawkat are "a private enterprise - it's not by any means an official Syrian government policy." He added: "The CIA simply doesn't want the story told."

Gal Luft, a former analyst for the pro-Israeli Washington Institute for Near East Policy who has excellent Israeli and U.S. intelligence sources, also said that materiel was being moved to Syria - "certain individuals are taking money and hiding weapons" - but he cautioned it was "not government-sanctioned."

Judith Yaphe, a former senior CIA Middle East analyst, said: "It's palace intrigue." She explained that Bushra "is the brains. She's much smarter and more effective than Bashar, and she was disappointed at being passed over and not seeing her husband elevated."

Bushra works at undercutting her brother, she said.

Jordan is also engaged in similar activity in concealing small amounts of Iraqi weapons, although former Israeli intelligence sources lacked specific details.

"In countries like Jordan or Syria, you do not have a federal government in the same sense that you have in the United States. Instead you have guys who work for the government but they pursue their own agenda. I wouldn't exaggerate the importance of it."

Link

 

[Lefty Wilbury]

three quick things:

1. it's funny the carnegie people say they inteligence reports were used wrong and manipulated. how they hell would they know they've never seen them

2. the was an article in a dutch paper recently that dealed with syria and the wmd and actully listed places where they were. i'll look for it more in the morning

3. here's an article from wnd. its the most recent one:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36463

Report: Syria hiding Iraqi WMD
Sources say relative of President Assad smuggled arms to 3 places

Posted: January 6, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

A relative of Syrian President Bashar Assad is hiding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction in three locations in Syria, according to intelligence sources cited by an exiled opposition party.

The weapons were smuggled in large wooden crates and barrels by Zu Alhema al-Shaleesh, known for moving arms into Iraq in violation of U.N. resolutions and for sending recruits to fight coalition forces, said the U.S.-based Reform Party of Syria.

The party, based in Potomac, Md., regards itself as a secular body comprised of Syrians who want to see the country embrace "real democratic and economic reforms."

One weapons-cache location identified by the sources is a mountain tunnel near the village of al-Baidah in northwest Syria, the report said. The tunnel is known to house a branch of the Assad regime's national security apparatus.

Two other arms supplies are reported to be in west-central Syria. One is hidden at a factory operated by the Syrian Air Force, near the village of Tal Snan, between the cities of Hama and Salmiyeh. The third location is tunnels beneath the small town of Shinshar, which belongs to the 661 battalion of the Syrian Air Force.

The nephew of Zu Alhema al-Shaleesh, Assef al-Shaleesh, runs Al Bashair Trading Co., a front for the Assad family involved prior to the war in oil smuggling from Iraq and arms smuggling into the country. Al-Bashair has offices in Damascus, Beirut and Baghdad.

In an exclusive interview yesterday with the London Telegraph, Assad came close to admitting his country possessed stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

Assad told the London paper Syria rejects American and British demands for concessions on weapons of mass destruction, insisting Damascus is entitled to defend itself by acquiring its own chemical and biological deterrent.

He said Israel must agree to abandon its undeclared nuclear arsenal in order for Syria to consider any deal with the U.S.

Last week, the Los Angeles Times reported Al Bashair Trading Co. participated in the smuggling of millions of dollars worth of sophisticated arms and equipment to Saddam Hussein for three years prior to the Iraqi leader's overthrow.

Al Bashair executives met with North Korean firms before the war began, according to the Los Angeles daily. The paper's three-month investigation included the translation of 800 signed contracts found in the Al Bashair Trading Co. office shortly before U.S. troops entered Baghdad.

Just prior to the U.S.-led effort to oust Hussein, SES International Corp. signed at least 50 contracts to supply weapons and gear to Iraq, the Times said, including 1,000 heavy machine guns and up to 20 million bullets for assault rifles.

Not all the weapons were delivered, but some may still be in use by terrorists battling the U.S. occupation forces, the newspaper said.

At least one shipment of arms was completed with the help of the Syrian government in violation of a U.N. arms embargo.

SES International Corp. denied any wrongdoing, while Syria's foreign ministry refused to comment to the Times.

 

[bamthin]

So, maybe after the US invades Syria looking for these WMD, there won't be any and the intel will show that they were moved to Iran. Then, Iran can be invaded and the intel will show that they were moved to North Korea.

You should do a little research about the shelf life of chem/bio weapons. By now, even mustard gas would be too stale to use. What is the point of transporting stale harmless chem/bio weapons to Syria anyway?


-Bam

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by bamthin
You should do a little research about the shelf life of chem/bio weapons. By now, even mustard gas would be too stale to use. What is the point of transporting stale harmless chem/bio weapons to Syria anyway?


-Bam

Ok, you made the statement, what is the shelf life of mustard gas? Sarin? Anthrax? VX? Smallpox? Botulinum?

And after you tell us that, tell us just when these weapons were produced.

 

[bamthin]

" Iraq manufactured three nerve agents: sarin, tabun, and VX. Some people who want war with Iraq describe 20,000 munitions filled with sarin and tabun nerve agents that could be used against Americans. The facts, however, don't support this. Sarin and tabun have a shelf-life of five years. Even if Iraq had somehow managed to hide this vast number of weapons from inspectors, what they are now storing is nothing more than useless, harmless goo.

Chemical weapons were produced in the Muthanna state establishment: a massive chemical weapons factory. It was bombed during the Gulf war, and then weapons inspectors came and completed the task of eliminating the facility. That means Iraq lost its sarin and tabun manufacturing base.

We destroyed thousands of tons of chemical agent. It is not as though we said, "Oh we destroyed a factory, now we are going to wait for everything else to expire." We had an incineration plant operating full-time for years, burning tons of the stuff every day. We went out and blew up bombs, missiles and warheads filled with this agent. We emptied Scud missile warheads filled with this agent. We hunted down this stuff and destroyed it."



LINK

Anything else?


-Bam

 

[5.10 leader]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Ok, you made the statement, what is the shelf life of mustard gas? Sarin? Anthrax? VX? Smallpox? Botulinum?

This link gives a bit more information upon the life of chemical weapons.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-9-86-1529.jsp

It would seem that most of Iraq's weapons made before 1993 would now be ineffective apart from mustard gas. It does, however, reiterate how easy it would be to produce new weapons.

Finally, the following is an interesting point from New Scientist.com


Q: Why is anthrax so popular as a biological weapon?

A: Anthrax spores are tough, fairly easy to culture and have a long shelf-life: spores seized from a World War One German spy targeting allied pack animals in Norway were revived after 80 years. They also survive delivery via bombs, shells or sprays better than many other pathogens.

A human with anthrax cannot infect someone else, which could be seen as useful on a battlefield. Spores released in a fine, inhalable mist - the main difficulty with mass administration of anthrax - should affect only the target troops, rather than creating an epidemic which could rebound on the attacker.

This might limit the appeal of anthrax as a doomsday, terrorist bug - although being unable to diagnose it until it is too late for treatment does give anthrax a particular horror. It is easy to handle and obtain - animal anthrax occurs almost worldwide.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by bamthin
Anything else?

Yes. Determining the current state of the weapons is impossible without knowing exactly when they were produced. When was that?

 

[5.10 leader]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Yes. Determining the current state of the weapons is impossible without knowing exactly when they were produced. When was that?

The current state of weapons produce historically is definitely worth considering for debate. IMO though, of much greater significance is the ability to manufacture biological weapons at present or in the future.

As I have previously posted 80 year old anthrax spores have been re-energised and other agents may be produced relatively easily.

It is too easy to minimise Iraq's capabilities to produce these weapons. They have done it before and if Saddam had been given a free rein I'm sure biological weapons would have been produced in the future.

 

[bamthin]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Yes. Determining the current state of the weapons is impossible without knowing exactly when they were produced. When was that?

Read the whole article. The chem/bio weapons manufacturing facility was destroyed in 1991.

-Bam

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by bamthin
Read the whole article. The chem/bio weapons manufacturing facility was destroyed in 1991.

-Bam

And I can provide articles that state that they were actively producing chemicals and had secret labs around Iraq. Clinton said so in 1998, UNSCOM said so in 2000 and various countries intel showed this to be true in 2002.

 

[jimnyc]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/02/iraq.weapons/
http://www.nti.org/e_research/e3_20a.html
http://www.isis-online.org/publications/iraq/leitenberg.html
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/98042705_npo.html

There's just a few after a brief search.