WMD's might start to matter

DKSuddeth

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2003
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3996047/

Arms issue seen as hurting U.S. credibility
Bush's failure to find illegal weapons harming foreign policy

By Glenn Kessler

The Bush administration's inability to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq -- after public statements declaring an imminent threat posed by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein -- has begun to harm the credibility abroad of the United States and of American intelligence, according to foreign policy experts in both parties.

In last year's State of the Union address, President Bush used stark imagery to make the case that military action was necessary. Among other claims, Bush said that Hussein had enough anthrax to "kill several million people," enough botulinum toxin to "subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure" and enough chemical agents to "kill untold thousands."

Now, as the president prepares for this State of the Union address Tuesday, those frightening images of death and destruction have been replaced by a different reality: Few of the many claims made by the administration have been confirmed after months of searching by weapons inspectors.

Within the United States, Bush does not appear to have suffered much political damage from the failure to find weapons, with polls showing high ratings for his handling of the war and little concern that he misrepresented the threat.

But a range of foreign policy experts, including supporters of the war, said the long-term consequences of the administration's rhetoric could be severe overseas -- especially because the war was waged without the backing of the United Nations and was opposed by large majorities, even in countries run by leaders that supported the invasion.

"The foreign policy blow-back is pretty serious," said Kenneth Adelman, a member of the Pentagon's Defense Advisory Board and a supporter of the war. He said the gaps between the administration's rhetoric and the postwar findings threaten Bush's doctrine of "preemption," which envisions attacking a nation because it is an imminent threat.

The doctrine "rests not just on solid intelligence," Adelman said, but "also on the credibility that the intelligence is solid."

Credibility gap
Already, in the crisis over North Korea's nuclear ambitions, China has rejected U.S. intelligence that North Korea has a secret program to enrich uranium for use in weapons. China is a key player in resolving the North Korean standoff, but its refusal to embrace the U.S. intelligence has disappointed U.S. officials and could complicate negotiations to eliminate North Korea's weapons programs.

Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, said the same problem could occur if the United States presses for action against alleged weapons programs in Iran and Syria. The solution, he said, is to let international organizations such as the International Atomic Energy Agency take the lead in making the case, as has happened thus far in Iran, and also to be willing to share more of the intelligence with other countries.

The inability to find suspected weapons "has to make it more difficult on some future occasion if the United States argues the intelligence warrants something controversial, like a preventive attack," said Haass, a Republican who was head of policy planning for Secretary of State Colin L. Powell when the war started. "The result is we've made the bar higher for ourselves and we have to expect greater skepticism in the future."

James Steinberg, a deputy national security adviser in the Clinton administration who believed there were legitimate concerns about Iraq's weapons programs, said the failure of the prewar claims to match the postwar reality "add to the general sense of criticism about the U.S., that we will do anything, say anything" to prevail.

Indeed, whenever Powell grants interviews to foreign news organizations, he is often hit with a question about the search for weapons of mass destruction. Last Friday, a British TV reporter asked whether in retirement he would "admit that you had concerns about invading Iraq," and a Dutch reporter asked whether he ever had doubts about the Iraq policy.

"There's no doubt in my mind that he had the intention, he had the capability," Powell responded. "How many weapons he had or didn't have, that will be determined."

Some on Capitol Hill believe the issue is so important that they are pressing the president to address the apparent intelligence failure in the State of the Union address and propose ways to fix it.

"I believe that unanswered questions regarding the accuracy and reliability of U.S. intelligence have created a credibility gap and left the nation in a precarious position," Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), the senior Democrat on the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, said in a speech last week. "The intelligence community seems to be in a state of denial, and the administration seems to have moved on."

Misrepresented threat
Since last year's State of the Union, the White House has established procedures for handling intelligence in presidential speeches by including a CIA officer in the speechwriting process. The CIA is also conducting an internal review, comparing prewar estimates with postwar findings, and the final report will be finished after inspectors in Iraq complete their work.

But Bush and his aides have largely sought to divert attention from the issue. White House aides have said they expect this year's State of the Union speech to look ahead -- to the democracy the administration hopes to establish in Iraq -- rather than look back.

Officials also have turned the focus to celebrating Hussein's capture last month and repeatedly drawing attention to Hussein's mistreatment of his people. Officials have argued that if Iraq's stocks of weapons are still unclear, Hussein's intentions to again possess such weapons are not. Thirteen years ago, when the United States was a backer of Hussein, Iraq used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war.

The administration "rid the Iraqi people of a murderous dictator, and rid the world of a menace to our future peace and security," Vice President Cheney said in a speech last week. Cheney -- and other U.S. officials -- increasingly point to Libya's decision last month to give up its weapons of mass destruction as a direct consequence of challenging Iraq.

Bush, when asked by ABC's Diane Sawyer why he said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when intelligence pointed more to the possibility Hussein would obtain such weapons, dismissed the question: "So, what's the difference?"

The U.S. team searching for Iraq's weapons has not issued a report since October, but in recent weeks the gap between administration claims and Iraq's actual weapons holdings has become increasingly clear. The Washington Post reported earlier this month that U.S. investigators have found no evidence that Iraq had a hidden cache of old chemical or biological weapons, and that its nuclear program had been shattered after the 1991 Persian Gulf War. A lengthy study issued by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace also concluded the administration shifted the intelligence consensus on Iraq's weapons in 2002 as officials prepared for war, making it appear more imminent and threatening than was warranted by the evidence.

The report further said that the administration "systematically misrepresented the threat" posed by Iraq, often on purpose, in four ways: one, treating nuclear, chemical and biological weapons as a single threat, although each posed different dangers and evidence was particularly thin on Iraq's nuclear and chemical programs; two, insisting without evidence that Hussein would give his weapons to terrorists; three, often dropping caveats and uncertainties contained in the intelligence assessments when making public statements; and four, misrepresenting inspectors' findings so that minor threats were depicted as emergencies.

From likelihood to fact
Jessica T. Mathews, president of the Carnegie Endowment and co-author of the report, pointed to one example in a speech delivered by Bush in Cincinnati on Oct. 7, 2002. U.N. inspectors had noted that Iraqi had failed to account for bacterial growth media that, if used, "could have produced about three times as much" anthrax as Iraq had admitted. But Bush, in his speech, turned a theoretical possibility into a fact.

"The inspectors, however, concluded that Iraq had likely produced two to four times that amount," Bush said. "This is a massive stockpile of biological weapons that has never been accounted for and is capable of killing millions."

Mathews said her research showed the administration repeatedly and frequently took such liberties with the intelligence and inspectors' findings to bolster its cases for immediate action. In the Cincinnati example, "in 35 words, you go from probably to a likelihood to a fact," she said. "With a few little changes in wording, you turn an 'if' into a dire biological weapons stockpile. Anyone hearing that must be thinking, 'My God, this is an imminent threat.' "

Steinberg, who was privy to the intelligence before Clinton left office, said that while at the National Security Council he saw no evidence Iraq had reconstituted its nuclear weapons program, but that there were unresolved questions about Hussein's chemical and biological weapons programs. "Given his reluctance to address these questions, you had to conclude he was hiding something," he said, adding that given the intelligence he saw, "I certainly expected something would have turned up."

"I think there are [diplomatic] consequences as a result of the president asking these questions [about Iraq's weapons holdings] and the answer being no" weapons, said Danielle Pletka, vice president for foreign and defense policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, who believes the ouster of Hussein justified the war. "The intelligence could have been better."

Richard Perle, another member of the Defense Advisory Board, said the criticism of the Bush administration is unfair. "Intelligence is not an audit," he said. "It's the best information you can get in circumstances of uncertainty, and you use it to make the best prudent judgment you can."

He added that presidents in particular tend not to place qualifiers on their statements, especially when they are advocating a particular policy. "Public officials tend to avoid hedging," he said.

Given the stakes involved -- going to war -- Mathews said the standards must be higher for such statements. "The most important call a president can make by a mile is whether to take a country to war," she argued, making the consequences of unwise decisions or misleading statements even greater.

Indeed, she said, the reverberations are still being felt, even as the administration tries to put the problem behind it. A recent CBS poll found that only 16 percent of those surveyed believed the administration lied about Iraq's weapons. But she said there is intense interest in the report's findings, with 35,000 copies downloaded from the think tank's Web site in just five days. "It is too soon to say there was no cost" to the failure to find weapons, she said. "I think there is a huge appetite for learning about this."
 
I responded very early this morning to Jones on the same misquote on another thread. Glad I'm not the only one responding to such tripe, although one assumes that reporters are able to find their own way to the whitehouse.gov site:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/005682.php

This morning's Washington Post includes an article by Glenn Kessler, titled "Arms Issue Seen as Hurting U.S. Credibility Abroad." Kessler's theme is announced in his the opening sentence: "The Bush administration's inability to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq -- after public statements declaring an imminent threat posed by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein -- has begun to harm the credibility abroad of the United States and of American intelligence, according to foreign policy experts in both parties." Regular readers of this and many other blogs need no reminder that the President said no such thing; on the contrary, a central point of his 2003 State of the Union address was the need to act, on occasion, in the absence of an imminent threat.

But Kessler's misrepresentations don't stop there. This is how he quotes last year's State of the Union speech:

"In last year's State of the Union address, President Bush used stark imagery to make the case that military action was necessary. Among other claims, Bush said that Hussein had enough anthrax to 'kill several million people,' enough botulinum toxin to 'subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure' and enough chemical agents to 'kill untold thousands.'

Last year's speech is available at the White House site, and Kessler presumably consulted it to get the quotes in the above paragraph. How odd, then, that he didn't quote the President correctly. Here are the complete paragraphs from which the above phrases were drawn:

"The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax -- enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

"The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them."

What President Bush said was true. The 1999 UNSCOM report sets out the historical context of the U.N.'s effort to verify Iraq's compliance with various U.N. resolutions:

"Iraq's offensive BW [biological weapons] programme was among the most secretive of its programmes of weapons of mass destruction. Its existence was not acknowledged until July 1995. During the period from 1991 to 1995 Iraq categorically denied it had a biological weapons programme and it took active steps to conceal the programme from the Special Commission. These included fraudulent statements, false and forged documents, misrepresentation of the roles of people and facilities and other specific acts of deception....In 1995, when Iraq was confronted with evidence collected by the Commission of imports of bacterial growth media in quantities that had no civilian utility within Iraq's limited biotechnology industry, it eventually, on 1 July 1995, acknowledged that it used this growth media to produce two BW agents in bulk, botulinum toxin and Bacillus anthracis spores, between 1988 and 1991. It was not, until August of 1995, however, that Iraq acknowledged that it had weaponized BW agents....Since July 1995, the Commission has conducted 35 biological inspections directly or indirectly related to investigations of Iraq's proscribed BW programme....This considerable effort has been negated by Iraq's intransigence and failure to provide cooperation concerning its biological weapons since January 1996."

Paragraph 105 of the UNSCOM report sets out the amounts of various materials needed to produce biological weapons which remained unaccounted for. It states that 460 kg of casein, known to have been possessed by Iraq, were unaccounted for, "Sufficient for the production of 1200 litres of concentrated botulinum toxin." It says further that at least 520 kg of yeast extract were unaccounted for: "This minimum estimate is uncertain and is likely to be much higher. It is based on a liberal assessment of the contents of many opened and irregularly marked containers. However this minimum figure is sufficient to produce 26000 litres of Bacillus anthracis spores or over 3 times the amount declared by Iraq."

UNSCOM concluded that "Throughout the investigation of the programme there has been a systematic and comprehensive attempt by Iraq to conceal the programme and deceive the Commission....In the Commission's view, Iraq has not complied with requirements of the relevant Security Council resolutions on the disclosure of its BW programme."

So what President Bush said in his State of the Union address was a precisely accurate summary of UNSCOM's 1999 report as it related to those pathogens. What he said about the American intelligence community's assessment of Iraq's ability to produce sarin, mustard gas and VX, as reflected in the National Intelligence Estimate, was accurate as well.

So, regardless of whether chemical or biological weapons are found in Iraq or not, what President Bush said in last year's State of the Union was correct: Iraq possessed materials from which considerable quantities of those weapons could be produced, and it never accounted for the whereabouts of those materials. President Bush's conclusion is hard to argue with: "Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

Does the Post think that anything we have learned since the fall of Saddam's regime should cause us to question that judgment?

UPDATE: In the context of the "Bush lied" hysteria that has swept the Democratic Party, it is interesting to compare President Bush's statements in his 2003 State of the Union speech with those of Wesley Clark in his September 2002 testimony before a House committee:

"He does retain his chemical and biological capabilities to some extent and he is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet....It's possible that Saddam Hussein may use biological weapons....Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time....We need to be ready because if suddenly Saddam Hussein's government collapses and we don't have everything ready to go, we're going to have chaos in that region. We may not get control of all the weapons of mass destruction."

Far from having hyped the intelligence, it was President Bush, not Wesley Clark, whose description of Saddam's weapons capability was sober, nuanced, and strictly accurate.

Posted by Hindrocket at 09:52 AM | TrackBack (0)
 
Touche' Kathianne. I've been saying this from the start. No one will listen this time either. If the intelligence linking Saddam Hussein to contemporary WMD doesn't bear fruit, it will be the fault of the entire government, not the Republicans, not George Bush but everyone involved. Including the UN, UK and every other one of the myriad countries who contributed to the intelligence and supported the 2002 UN resolution.

Saddam Hussein is completely responsible for his fate. He was given chance after chance and warning after warning. Those who don't like it, are just like those who wimper when beaten at their own game.
 
it will be the fault of the entire government, not the Republicans, not George Bush but everyone involved.

And this is something I've been saying for awhile now.

Saddam Hussein is completely responsible for his fate. He was given chance after chance and warning after warning. Those who don't like it, are just like those who wimper when beaten at their own game.

Do we turn the world into place where anyone can accuse someone else of having something and if they don't produce it (whether they have it or not) then that leaves them completely open to have the snot beat out of them so we can find it?
 
Originally posted by DKSuddeth
And this is something I've been saying for awhile now.



Do we turn the world into place where anyone can accuse someone else of having something and if they don't produce it (whether they have it or not) then that leaves them completely open to have the snot beat out of them so we can find it?
No, I'm not advocating that. If you can't see the difference between someone who, unquestionably, killed hundreds of thousands of people, lost a war in which he used said weapons and then flaunted the UN's resolutions for over a decade and a world "where anyone can accuse someone else of having something and if they don't produce it (whether they have it or not) then that leaves them completely open to have the snot beat out of them so we can find it?" than there is no point to discussing this as your mind is closed.
 
Kathianne,

You are really going to have to make a choice here I think. Bush misrepresented the facts, or the intelligence was awful that he recieved. The article DK posted seems to suggest that the US will have an intelligence credibility issue with it's future justifications for use of force to the international community.

I really don't see how Kessler misquoted Bush at all. He said Bush used stark imagery and then included actual quoted lines from that speech. It seems to me, even as I read that speech again, that Bush was trying to convince people that Saddam was armed to the teeth. In retrospect, it sounds even more manipulative as I read it again. It's not like inspectors weren't back in Iraq checking on this stuff and that's the pertinent issue.

As for Clark's testimony, if you actually read that address you will see that Clark was not supporting an armed incursion of Iraq until all other options had been exhausted. The pertinent issue here is that Hans Blix said he needed more time and was making good progress in inspecting Iraq. He and his team were ordered by Bush to leave so the US could attack. Clark's testimony shows what a person who understands the complexity of that situation needed to consider.

Don't forget that this State of the Union Address by Bush last year is only the tip of the iceberg of purported "intelligence" that Bush had to press his case for war. The bottom line, is that Bush and/our intelligence aparatus looks like shit internationally and will be highly questioned from here on out. I think that is the purpose of the article.


-Bam
 
Bam read more carefully, though you've shown enough intelligence prior to make comprehension a questionable cause, he did misquote Bush, demonstrably.
 
Well, Bam didn't answer, so here's more (check out link, there are embedded links):

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2004/01/Animminentbiglie.shtml

They say, "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity", but we seem to have gone beyond any possible stupidity now. Have we reached the point where we can assume there's a conspiracy to spread a big lie? And where we can safely dismiss the opinions of anyone who repeats it?

The Bush administration's inability to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq -- after public statements declaring an imminent threat posed by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein -- has begun to harm the credibility abroad of the United States and of American intelligence, according to foreign policy experts in both parties.

In last year's State of the Union address, President Bush used stark imagery to make the case that military action was necessary. Among other claims, Bush said that Hussein had enough anthrax to "kill several million people," enough botulinum toxin to "subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure" and enough chemical agents to "kill untold thousands."

That was the SOTU address where Bush said that we could not afford to wait until such threats became "imminent". AAaargh!

The myth that Bush claimed that Iraq represented an "imminent threat" has been debunked again and again; there's no excuse for any reporter at this point not knowing that it's a blatant lie. Why is it being repeated now?

As if I didn't know. Lessee, diagnostic signs from the rest of the article:

Criticism about not having UN approval: check.
Concern about disapproval from abroad: check.

But a range of foreign policy experts, including supporters of the war, said the long-term consequences of the administration's rhetoric could be severe overseas -- especially because the war was waged without the backing of the United Nations and was opposed by large majorities, even in countries run by leaders that supported the invasion.

Misstatement of the Bush doctrine: check.

"The foreign policy blow-back is pretty serious," said Kenneth Adelman, a member of the Pentagon's Defense Advisory Board and a supporter of the war. He said the gaps between the administration's rhetoric and the postwar findings threaten Bush's doctrine of "preemption," which envisions attacking a nation because it is an imminent threat.

(The "Bush doctrine" is attack them before they become an "imminent threat", because by the time they are an imminent threat it will be too late.)

Insistence on reliance on international agencies: check.

Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, said the same problem could occur if the United States presses for action against alleged weapons programs in Iran and Syria. The solution, he said, is to let international organizations such as the International Atomic Energy Agency take the lead in making the case, as has happened thus far in Iran, and also to be willing to share more of the intelligence with other countries.

"That's not a feature, that's a bug." check.

James Steinberg, a deputy national security adviser in the Clinton administration who believed there were legitimate concerns about Iraq's weapons programs, said the failure of the prewar claims to match the postwar reality "add to the general sense of criticism about the U.S., that we will do anything, say anything" to prevail.

Reliance on leftist groups as pure oracles of truth: check.

A lengthy study issued by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace also concluded the administration shifted the intelligence consensus on Iraq's weapons in 2002 as officials prepared for war, making it appear more imminent and threatening than was warranted by the evidence.

Yup, all the signs are there: this is a straight leftist propaganda piece disguised as straight news reporting.

Update: And right next door we have this highly unbiased article: U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan is prepared to try to help the United States salvage its Iraq strategy, despite more than a year of rancorous relations over the country, largely due to his deep concern about the potential for a political implosion in Iraq, according to senior U.S. and U.N. officials.

That Annan is such a wonderful guy, to help out the US now that it's stuck in a quagmire, ain't he?
 
K.

""The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it."

I guess it's just me but this seems like stark imagery suggesting Saddam Hussein has botulinum toxin. He states that Saddam hasn't accounted for it and that he has given no evidence that he has destroyed it. This is suggesting, rather strongly I might add, that he still has it and this passage was framed in a context that a listener would infer that. On top of that, remember that this is the President of the United States speaking, not Rush Limbaugh, so a regular American automatically will give a large amount of trust to what Bush is saying.

I think I would have rather heard Bush stressing that the inspectors in Iraq be given more time to investigate the possibility of these things that were in the UNSCOM report. I still don't understand why they were asked to leave and Iraq was invaded. I have never gotten a good answer from a republican on this either.

-Bam
 
OK Bam, the whole of your post in bold:

K.

""The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it."

I guess it's just me but this seems like stark imagery suggesting Saddam Hussein has botulinum toxin. He states that Saddam hasn't accounted for it and that he has given no evidence that he has destroyed it. This is suggesting, rather strongly I might add, that he still has it and this passage was framed in a context that a listener would infer that. On top of that, remember that this is the President of the United States speaking, not Rush Limbaugh, so a regular American automatically will give a large amount of trust to what Bush is saying.

I think I would have rather heard Bush stressing that the inspectors in Iraq be given more time to investigate the possibility of these things that were in the UNSCOM report. I still don't understand why they were asked to leave and Iraq was invaded. I have never gotten a good answer from a republican on this either.

-Bam[B/]


"This is suggesting, rather strongly I might add, that he still has it and this passage was framed in a context that a listener would infer that. On top of that, remember that this is the President of the United States speaking, not Rush Limbaugh, so a regular American automatically will give a large amount of trust to what Bush is saying."

No duh! Note he is quoting what UN was concluding based on reports and demonstrated use of weapons.

"I think I would have rather heard Bush stressing that the inspectors in Iraq be given more time to investigate the possibility of these things that were in the UNSCOM report."

How many? How long? To what effect? Here is the 'pertinent UN resolutions' via a group that was against sanctions for Iraq:

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/scriraq.html
 
K,

"How many? How long? To what effect?"

I would say as long as the inspectors need to complete their work. What was the rush at that point? The idea here is that, based on the quoted UNSCOM report, there were questions about the whereabouts of certain weapons. I believe that it would have been better to ascertain the truth about those weapons before assuming the worst and killing thousands of people. That was the cost of being precipitous and, to those people and their families, it was very expensive.

What was the cost to Bush? Maybe his job come November?

-Bam
 
Bam the thing is, you don't ever let go of a source that pleases you, even after discredited. Just because 'according to this article' is used, especially if someone other than yourself puts it up, doesn't make it written in stone.

I happen to disagree with your basic premise of 'as long as the inspectors needed'. US policy is not necessarily made by the French, some of us would even have the gall to say that the US should be in control of its own policies, weird, huh? Some of us agree with the idea that we should try to prevent things from happening here, Saddam had already proven he would use WMD, that he would support terrorists-financially and materially, and that he would harm the US, (I do consider a planned assassination of US president harmful).
 
Originally posted by Kathianne
Bam the thing is, you don't ever let go of a source that pleases you, even after discredited. Just because 'according to this article' is used, especially if someone other than yourself puts it up, doesn't make it written in stone.

I happen to disagree with your basic premise of 'as long as the inspectors needed'. US policy is not necessarily made by the French, some of us would even have the gall to say that the US should be in control of its own policies, weird, huh? Some of us agree with the idea that we should try to prevent things from happening here, Saddam had already proven he would use WMD, that he would support terrorists-financially and materially, and that he would harm the US, (I do consider a planned assassination of US president harmful).


K,

I think the point of the original article and the main point DK was making with it is valid. The US has lost considerable credibility with the international community in regards to its intelligence. I think the jury is still out domestically whether Bush misled the American people, the American intelligence infrastructure has serious issues, or Bush incorrectly interpreted the intelligence. I can't figure how you can not say one of these three things isn't the case though based on the facts on the ground in Iraq thus far.

I think you also need to compound the drop in credibility of US intelligence with the personal lack of popularity Bush has overseas as well. He hasn't made a ton of freinds throughout the world with his personality.

I think your argument that the US should be in control of its own policies is rather ill-timed with the US eating crow right now and asking the UN to re-engage in the Iraq issue. I am impressed with Kofi Annan leaning towards assisting the US. That was very magnanimous of him. Contrast that with Bush who excluded nations who didn't support the invasion from reconstruction contracts.

The bottom line is that the UN and the majority of the world wanted the inspections to continue instead of a full scale invasion, but Bush argued that the invasion was required based on, among other things, "credible" intelligence that Saddam had large stockpiles of WMD and that he was allied with El-Queda.

Are you denying that the US will have much tougher sell on actions like this in the future as a direct result of these failures?

This was the point of the article that DK posted and I would have to agree with that. It's OK that you like Bush, but please try and look at what is being said realistically. You can pick through Kessler's rhetoric and the way he worded things all you like, but in doing that you are in denial of the obvious.


-Bam
 
Just to make an even more obvious point, considering the new arguments that the major bush supporters make in justifying an invasion of Iraq by citing all the other numerous reasons and stating that those that continue to harp on the WMD issues are just liberal bush haters......what would that make the other world leaders and citizens if they are feeling the same way?
 
Ok Bam and DK, at this point we've all replayed our positions, appears none of us are going to change our minds.

For me, the article is obviously a misrepresentation of what was said, you can check out the SOU speech at whitehouse.gov but that won't do for you guys, which of course is your right.

I really don't care what France, Germany and Russia think of US action in Iraq. Surprise! They should not and are not the determiners of what US policy should be.

The UN is doing what it's supposed to do, no favors giveg. If they choose not to participate, that is their right too. If they chose to not get involved in setting up election compromise, well would be pretty hard for the US to keep paying the dues, there would be no point. We can't expect them to intervene with force, both Iraq and Kosovo proved they are just unable. Peacekeeping and election control are two things they do well, for them to refuse would prove the organization is without purpose.
 
K,

Regardless of whether the article is a misrepresentation of what was said in the SOU address, which I would disagree with, the overall message is still pretty clear. I take it from your response that you agree that this whole Iraq WMD debacle has harmed the credibility of US intelligence and Bush's international clout as well because you really haven't directly confronted that issue here.

You say you don't care what France, Germany and Russia think of what the US does, but this is only a small sample of the nations who think less of Bush's assertations and the credibility of US intelligence. You must also consider the minority of nations that composed the "Coalition of the Willing" in the equation. While these nations may still support future unilateral pre-emptive military campaigns, they will most certainly do so much more apprehensively.

I guess we do disagree. I think that international trust and the support of the UN should play a major role in our foreign policy. You seem to not value those things in favor of unilateral US actions when the international community disagrees with the US. You also seem a little deluded into thinking that it was only France, Germany and Russia who took issue with the US Iraq invasion. I am not sure why you are doing that. You can't possibly think that everything is copacetic internationally and that Bush has been an exemplary ambassador and champion of foreign relations.


-Bam
 
Countries are like people. Not everyone likes you. Some might not like you because they think you are too smart, stupid, rich, poor, wrong color, wrong religion, obnoxious, naive, and so it goes. Get over it.
I really am not going to keep up these thread, as you will insist that I agree with you, which is not going to happen.

I think the administration has done a fine job of caring for American interests, which is what we hire them to do. Alliances are made either for strategic reasons, economic reasons, or rarely for reasons of trust. Thus France, which was a historic ally is now not, certainly because they don't trust us, and vice versa.

You are trying to insist there are all these countries allied against us, just isn't true, but guess what? I am not going to do your research, for even if I did, you would say, "What about all the others?" Let's just keep in mind Japan sent first over yesterday.
 
Originally posted by Kathianne
Countries are like people. Not everyone likes you. Some might not like you because they think you are too smart, stupid, rich, poor, wrong color, wrong religion, obnoxious, naive, and so it goes. Get over it.
I really am not going to keep up these thread, as you will insist that I agree with you, which is not going to happen.

I think the administration has done a fine job of caring for American interests, which is what we hire them to do. Alliances are made either for strategic reasons, economic reasons, or rarely for reasons of trust. Thus France, which was a historic ally is now not, certainly because they don't trust us, and vice versa.

You are trying to insist there are all these countries allied against us, just isn't true, but guess what? I am not going to do your research, for even if I did, you would say, "What about all the others?" Let's just keep in mind Japan sent first over yesterday.


K, don't ever try and get a job as an ambassador please. It's that brand of arrogance and mean spirit that starts world wars. I expect our President and his diplomatic staff to try a little harder.

-Bam
 
Originally posted by bamthin
K, don't ever try and get a job as an ambassador please. It's that brand of arrogance and mean spirit that starts world wars. I expect our President and his diplomatic staff to try a little harder.

-Bam

Could you maybe.....just once.....please.... respond constructively when someone replies to you. 90% people do respond constructively to you and 90% if the time your response is somehting along the lines of "you're arrogant/stupid/evil/dumb/unintellgent, etc.

There was absolutely nothing that can be construed as 'mean spirited' or 'arrogant' in kathianne's response. In most cases it is reality. If by some chance there is please tell me exactley what and why you think it is arrogant. Then perhaps we can have real conversation
 

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