Without the United States, what would the world look like?

[CrusaderFrank]

PEW reports that only 6% of scientists identify themselves as "Republican" and less than 9% as conservative.

Since the goal of conservatives is the opposite of enlightenment, of course it's no surprise.

The greatest science centers are based in Blue states so it should be no surprise. Especially since those in Red states want to push mysticism and the occult over science. It's just the way it is. What can you expect from those that believe the "supernatural" is "real"?

94% of Rdean's posts are a waste of electrons.

I have reviewed the above and can state with a 99.9999% degree of confidence that it's a waste of electrons

The truth hurts. Poor thing.

Hey, ever figure out what "nutrition" means?

You should quit while you're way behind, Moonbat.

 

[geauxtohell]

Overall, we've been a force for good.

We haven't been as good as the jingoists claim.

Any examples?

Sure.

In the good column you can add "Played in integral role in stopping Hitler from turning every non-Aryan into a lampshade".

In the not-so-good-column you can add: "Propped up ruthless and brutal dictators in South America".

In fact much of our worst polices (i.e. supporting thugs via the Truman Doctrine or pre-emptive war to stop terrorism) have come at the hands of a scared electorate.

We are at our worse when we are scared and reactionary.

 

[rdean]

Overall, we've been a force for good.

We haven't been as good as the jingoists claim.

Any examples?

Sure.

In the good column you can add "Played in integral role in stopping Hitler from turning every non-Aryan into a lampshade".

In the not-so-good-column you can add: "Propped up ruthless and brutal dictators in South America".

In fact much of our worst polices (i.e. supporting thugs via the Truman Doctrine or pre-emptive war to stop terrorism) have come at the hands of a scared electorate.

We are at our worse when we are scared and reactionary.

When so much of the Republican base, like the Aryan Nation and the KKK, adores Hitler? That may not be the best example.

Of course, it's the scientists and engineers that designed the weapons and subs and planes and bombs who get a lot of the credit. To the Republicans, these are "sit on your ass" "it's just a piece of paper" elitist liberals.

And look who makes up the bulk of the military. The middle class. The very same group Republicans want to destroy. What have Republicans done for the middle class in the last 20 years?

 

[sparky]

Anyway, just thought maybe we'd toss some ideas of what the world may look like if the evil, rich, greedy USofA was not around.

so what the question really begs is , would human nature change without the USA

~S~

 

[cad]

Any examples?

Sure.

In the good column you can add "Played in integral role in stopping Hitler from turning every non-Aryan into a lampshade".

In the not-so-good-column you can add: "Propped up ruthless and brutal dictators in South America".

In fact much of our worst polices (i.e. supporting thugs via the Truman Doctrine or pre-emptive war to stop terrorism) have come at the hands of a scared electorate.

We are at our worse when we are scared and reactionary.

When so much of the Republican base, like the Aryan Nation and the KKK, adores Hitler? That may not be the best example.

Of course, it's the scientists and engineers that designed the weapons and subs and planes and bombs who get a lot of the credit. To the Republicans, these are "sit on your ass" "it's just a piece of paper" elitist liberals.

And look who makes up the bulk of the military. The middle class. The very same group Republicans want to destroy. What have Republicans done for the middle class in the last 20 years?

i think the majority of people who invented the things i listed would consider themselves inventors and entrepreneuers before they would consider themselves scientists. i will admit i have no facts to back that up. if i had to guess though, profit motive, and not some desire to serve science, was their driving motive.

the pew poll you cited where it states 94% of scientists are democrats, i have no doubt about that. i would imagine a large majority of those scientists are academics. the only thing the majority of these people are going to "invent' are papers.

i would guess that if you look around the room you are sitting in right now, and look at each object that is in it, the majority of them came about because of someone who wanted to make a buck. an idea that our current president seems to hold with some contempt.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

I love alternative History. This one is kind of like the classic South-wins-Civil-War-and-you-have-a-USA-and-CSA-instead storylines, but with a US that broke up further? I'd imagine it'd sort of have to look like this: a USA in the North, a CSA in the South, a bigger Canada which consumed many north-western states and a Mexico re-taking over most of the South West, with perhaps an independent Texas somewhere around there. It's likely that both Canada and Mexico would be more powerful than they are today (Many thought on the eve of its independence that it would the Mexican Empire that became the new superpower in the Americas, mainly due to how enormous it was, but of course we all know that didn't happen). Unless Mexico had exploited this huge land resource (which could've been possible... they only held it for some 27 years post-independence), they could've become more important but of course not nearly to the same degree as the US did in any way, shape or form. The Southern portion of the US would have most likely looked south for conquest, possibly enslaving most of the Caribbean and probably Central America as well (especially with Mexico looking northwards) and creating a slave empire in the process, Guatemala may have remained independent as a buffer between the two.

One thing that everyone's assuming is that Nazi Germany would've still come about if there was no US. This is not entirely likely. There could likely have been a total standstill in which neither side won, or more likely there could have been a German 'victory' with Russia in the midst of Revolution. Hitler would have been a nobody in a victorious Germany, or in the absence of the Versailles Treaty. The old monarchies might have survived (which would have been a different kind of shitty). Who knows, maybe due to the change of conditions around Brest-Litov, Lenin would have avoided the assassination attempt that would lead him to an untimely demise, and Stalin would not have risen to power either. There's no telling what could have happened there. Maybe there would have been revolution throughout Europe after some years of German victory, or Germany could've later conquered more of Russia. Maybe a Hitler type character would have emerged in defeated France. It's also likely that pieces of the US would have picked different allies and carried the war over to the American heartland.

In effect, a myriad of different scenarios are possible had the US not existed and not shaped the 20th century. But we'll never know.

 

[Avatar4321]

For all the hate in recent years for the power of the United States and it's richness, I wonder, what would the world look like if the USA had crumbled, say, 80 years ago? Yeah, lets say we never recovered from the Great Depression. Lets say a massive plague hit America in the 1920's, wiping the country nearly out, and it broke down into a bunch of 8-10 smaller, South American size like nations. Here is how I believe it may have the world looking:

- The Nazis would've taken Europe, and eventually regrouped and beaten the Russian military. Japan would've taken the South Pacific, and established a large presence on the Chinese coastal areas, before settling for what that had conquered. Europe would still be dominated by Germany- the world's economic superpower.

I disagree. Hitler couldn't have maintained his stranghold for more than a generation, even if he did manage to defeat the rest of the Allies. Besides, the US collapsed in the 1920s, its quite likely a dictator may have risen in our nation and out hitlered hitler. There is just too many variables to accurately predict this

- Japan would not be as economically as powerful as today, as they would not have US protection post-ww2 and would have to fund a massive military to fend off hated China and Russian threats.

Japan would likely have conquored the West Coast of the United States.

- There would be no Israel.

Possibly, However, God has a way of getting His way. Not to mention the Zionist movement was well advancing in Europe before then. Assuming Hitler didnt kill absolutely every jew, some may have returned anyway.

- Iraq would've moved from it's takeover of Kuwait, and become more and more powerful until eventually destroying Iran. It's unchecked aggression is not stopped, as it has an alliance to supply Nazi Germany with oil in exchange for weapons and the Germans allowing them to dominate the Middle East. Iraq eventually takes Saudi Arabia, who surrenders to the Iraqis to avoid a war against the Iraqi military- supplied by Germany.

This is the one that is absolutely and completely unfeasible. It's unlikely Saddam would have power. Or the middle east would even look like it does now if Hitler won World War II. I doubt there would be a nation of Iraq. likely Iran would have a new Persian Empire or something.

- Mexico is eventually colonized by the Germans. The Mexican people are still struggling, as there is no America for their poor and desperate to flee to. Both the Germans and Japanese have eyes on the resources of North America.

I don't see this as likely. Its more likely they would be fighting over control of the US.

- Canada continues to bolster it's military in response, while it's people beg for national healthcare. But paying for a massive military to defend itself, while also trying to pay for social entitlements, puts the Canadian gov't on track to bankruptcy.

You honestly think there would still be a Canada if the US and Great Britian fell?

- The 8 nations of the former United States are doing well, but none are strong enough to stand up to any invasion on their own. They form an alliance with Canada, which the Japanese and Germans take seriously, as they do not want to enter a bloody war on the vast continent.

Anyway, just thought maybe we'd toss some ideas of what the world may look like if the evil, rich, greedy USofA was not around.

Interesting ideas. I don't find them at all feasible.

 

[rdean]

Sure.

In the good column you can add "Played in integral role in stopping Hitler from turning every non-Aryan into a lampshade".

In the not-so-good-column you can add: "Propped up ruthless and brutal dictators in South America".

In fact much of our worst polices (i.e. supporting thugs via the Truman Doctrine or pre-emptive war to stop terrorism) have come at the hands of a scared electorate.

We are at our worse when we are scared and reactionary.

When so much of the Republican base, like the Aryan Nation and the KKK, adores Hitler? That may not be the best example.

Of course, it's the scientists and engineers that designed the weapons and subs and planes and bombs who get a lot of the credit. To the Republicans, these are "sit on your ass" "it's just a piece of paper" elitist liberals.

And look who makes up the bulk of the military. The middle class. The very same group Republicans want to destroy. What have Republicans done for the middle class in the last 20 years?

i think the majority of people who invented the things i listed would consider themselves inventors and entrepreneuers before they would consider themselves scientists. i will admit i have no facts to back that up. if i had to guess though, profit motive, and not some desire to serve science, was their driving motive.

the pew poll you cited where it states 94% of scientists are democrats, i have no doubt about that. i would imagine a large majority of those scientists are academics. the only thing the majority of these people are going to "invent' are papers.

i would guess that if you look around the room you are sitting in right now, and look at each object that is in it, the majority of them came about because of someone who wanted to make a buck. an idea that our current president seems to hold with some contempt.

Actually no. I've post the PEW Report and their method of creating that report so many times I've been threatened with being banned for multiple posts. If you want to read about it, just do a search on PEW and 6% of scientists.

They went to the largest organization of scientists in the US and dropped out anyone who was teaching, overseas, or not a citizen. College professors voted 12 to 1 for Obama, that's why they were dropped.

What was left were scientists in government and in industry. The ones that actually do "stuff".

 

[cad]

When so much of the Republican base, like the Aryan Nation and the KKK, adores Hitler? That may not be the best example.

Of course, it's the scientists and engineers that designed the weapons and subs and planes and bombs who get a lot of the credit. To the Republicans, these are "sit on your ass" "it's just a piece of paper" elitist liberals.

And look who makes up the bulk of the military. The middle class. The very same group Republicans want to destroy. What have Republicans done for the middle class in the last 20 years?

i think the majority of people who invented the things i listed would consider themselves inventors and entrepreneuers before they would consider themselves scientists. i will admit i have no facts to back that up. if i had to guess though, profit motive, and not some desire to serve science, was their driving motive.

the pew poll you cited where it states 94% of scientists are democrats, i have no doubt about that. i would imagine a large majority of those scientists are academics. the only thing the majority of these people are going to "invent' are papers.

i would guess that if you look around the room you are sitting in right now, and look at each object that is in it, the majority of them came about because of someone who wanted to make a buck. an idea that our current president seems to hold with some contempt.

Actually no. I've post the PEW Report and their method of creating that report so many times I've been threatened with being banned for multiple posts. If you want to read about it, just do a search on PEW and 6% of scientists.

They went to the largest organization of scientists in the US and dropped out anyone who was teaching, overseas, or not a citizen. College professors voted 12 to 1 for Obama, that's why they were dropped.

What was left were scientists in government and in industry. The ones that actually do "stuff".

ok, i've done a little bit of research but still can't find where they threw out all college professors, or anyone getting government money for that matter. if you could provide a link that would be helpful (in all seriousness, i'm not doubting that it's there)

i just have a hard time believing all (94%) of those inventors (scientists) shared a similar political outlook as liberals do today. or at least that that was their primary motivating factor.

 

[bucs90]

Everything you listed was invented by some kind of scientist. The odds are 94 to 6 that it was a "liberal".

first off, where are you pulling those "odds" from, other than your ass?
secondly, WTF is your point? refer to the title of this post you idiot.

PEW reports that only 6% of scientists identify themselves as "Republican" and less than 9% as conservative.

Since the goal of conservatives is the opposite of enlightenment, of course it's no surprise.

The greatest science centers are based in Blue states so it should be no surprise. Especially since those in Red states want to push mysticism and the occult over science. It's just the way it is. What can you expect from those that believe the "supernatural" is "real"?

Thats a good stat. And seeing as most college campuses, and their professors, lean left, it's no suprise scientists are political liberals. And thats fine. Theres a place in America for everyone, and I don't mind liberals. They provide great debate usually, and it's great a country can host so many viewpoints without violent conflict, unlike the rest of the world. My issue is when your ideals take power and start taking money out of my pocket to fund failed programs.

As for science, as a big reader and wonderer of science and religion, what do you think of the very recent trend of science and religion blending? Not a political question, but more and more books I'm finding and reading in recent years show that the deeper scientists dig into science and space, the more and more they become convinced that there is a God or some higher conscience or power. In other words, the more enlightened the scientists become, the less likely they are to be atheist.

 

[bucs90]

i think the majority of people who invented the things i listed would consider themselves inventors and entrepreneuers before they would consider themselves scientists. i will admit i have no facts to back that up. if i had to guess though, profit motive, and not some desire to serve science, was their driving motive.

the pew poll you cited where it states 94% of scientists are democrats, i have no doubt about that. i would imagine a large majority of those scientists are academics. the only thing the majority of these people are going to "invent' are papers.

i would guess that if you look around the room you are sitting in right now, and look at each object that is in it, the majority of them came about because of someone who wanted to make a buck. an idea that our current president seems to hold with some contempt.

Actually no. I've post the PEW Report and their method of creating that report so many times I've been threatened with being banned for multiple posts. If you want to read about it, just do a search on PEW and 6% of scientists.

They went to the largest organization of scientists in the US and dropped out anyone who was teaching, overseas, or not a citizen. College professors voted 12 to 1 for Obama, that's why they were dropped.

What was left were scientists in government and in industry. The ones that actually do "stuff".

ok, i've done a little bit of research but still can't find where they threw out all college professors, or anyone getting government money for that matter. if you could provide a link that would be helpful (in all seriousness, i'm not doubting that it's there)

i just have a hard time believing all (94%) of those inventors (scientists) shared a similar political outlook as liberals do today. or at least that that was their primary motivating factor.

Nah, he's right, I've seen that stat. I think it's more of a culture and peer thing though. Think about it. How much science is done as part of a government grant, through colleges? A lot. Most of them work as professors of some type through a college. It's a peer thing, as most colleges lean left. Gotta fit in. I mean, how many Gay Rights activists do you see employed by and working for the Marine Corp???? People tend to openly ID themselves to what is popular amongst their surroundings. No different for professors, scientists, etc.

 

[Modbert]

Without the U.S, World War I would of ended in a stand still. Therefore no World War II, no Japan taking over later on and basically all of your little what ifs don't happen.

Besides, even if there was a WWII, Hitler lost to Russia in Russia. In the long run, Hitler would of lost and Stalin would of probably taken even more of Europe.

 

[bucs90]

So without the US, you think it would've been basically peaceful after WW1?

 

[Modbert]

So without the US, you think it would've been basically peaceful after WW1?

You seem to not understand. Without the U.S in World War I, it's doubtful that the Entente would of won like they did. Therefore, no Treaty of Versailles which would later be the spark which would eventually bring Hitler to power.

We would live in a world where The British Empire still exists, Israel wouldn't exist because there would of been no holocaust. Japan would of likely been slapped down by the European powers who were not busy bickering.

No Cold War, No Stalin outside of Russia.

I don't know how there would be no U.S. If they didn't win the revolution, it's likely the British would of retained that land with France owning the purchase too and perhaps other countries in the land. If it ends at the civil war, you will have U.S and Canada combine into one country while the South and perhaps in the long run South America would combine into one force.

I do think that without a U.S in such a fashion after the Civil War, all of these nations combining together to form governments wouldn't be a surprise but more so a necessity.

What is also needed to be realized is that World War I defined the rest of the 20th century. If you take away World War I or even minimize what happened, you will change history in the rest of the century dramatically.

 

[elvis]

Without the U.S, World War I would of ended in a stand still. Therefore no World War II, no Japan taking over later on and basically all of your little what ifs don't happen.

Besides, even if there was a WWII, Hitler lost to Russia in Russia. In the long run, Hitler would of lost and Stalin would of probably taken even more of Europe.

with american supplies.

 

[Modbert]

with american supplies.

Maybe so. But Hitler still would historically screw up and make the same mistake as Napoleon. It's like I said, with no U.S, basically you'll have a bigger British Empire and maybe even France in North America. They wouldn't just sit idle by.

But it's like I said in my second post, it's higher likely with no U.S. that Hitler ever comes to power. No Hitler or Treaty, no World War II.

 

[bucs90]

So without the US, you think it would've been basically peaceful after WW1?

You seem to not understand. Without the U.S in World War I, it's doubtful that the Entente would of won like they did. Therefore, no Treaty of Versailles which would later be the spark which would eventually bring Hitler to power.

We would live in a world where The British Empire still exists, Israel wouldn't exist because there would of been no holocaust. Japan would of likely been slapped down by the European powers who were not busy bickering.

No Cold War, No Stalin outside of Russia.

I don't know how there would be no U.S. If they didn't win the revolution, it's likely the British would of retained that land with France owning the purchase too and perhaps other countries in the land. If it ends at the civil war, you will have U.S and Canada combine into one country while the South and perhaps in the long run South America would combine into one force.

I do think that without a U.S in such a fashion after the Civil War, all of these nations combining together to form governments wouldn't be a surprise but more so a necessity.

What is also needed to be realized is that World War I defined the rest of the 20th century. If you take away World War I or even minimize what happened, you will change history in the rest of the century dramatically.

Ah, I see. My scenario began with a United States that crumbled after the depression. My scenario was hypothetically to add say a massive plague at the end of the great depression before we recovered that basically devastates the nation and it breaks up into 8 smaller ones out of necessity. Yeah, it would take one hell of a plague to do that, but it was a hypothetical. Post WW1, say, 1935 range. Or a massive natural disaster, like yellowstone erupting, or whatever, just something so devastating at the end of the depression that the nation just splits into smaller ones. Unlikely, but for the sake of my argument of what the world would look like if the USA had fallen post WW1, just before WW2.

But yes, WW1 shaped the next 100 years. No doubt about that.

 

[bucs90]

with american supplies.

Maybe so. But Hitler still would historically screw up and make the same mistake as Napoleon. It's like I said, with no U.S, basically you'll have a bigger British Empire and maybe even France in North America. They wouldn't just sit idle by.

But it's like I said in my second post, it's higher likely with no U.S. that Hitler ever comes to power. No Hitler or Treaty, no World War II.

Yep. And then all the companies in France that produced white flags would've gone bankrupt.

 

[Modbert]

Ah, I see. My scenario began with a United States that crumbled after the depression. My scenario was hypothetically to add say a massive plague at the end of the great depression before we recovered that basically devastates the nation and it breaks up into 8 smaller ones out of necessity. Yeah, it would take one hell of a plague to do that, but it was a hypothetical. Post WW1, say, 1935 range. Or a massive natural disaster, like yellowstone erupting, or whatever, just something so devastating at the end of the depression that the nation just splits into smaller ones. Unlikely, but for the sake of my argument of what the world would look like if the USA had fallen post WW1, just before WW2.

But yes, WW1 shaped the next 100 years. No doubt about that.

To put it bluntly, if a massive plague takes out the U.S. then I'd hate to see the condition of the rest of the world.

 

[bucs90]

Ah, I see. My scenario began with a United States that crumbled after the depression. My scenario was hypothetically to add say a massive plague at the end of the great depression before we recovered that basically devastates the nation and it breaks up into 8 smaller ones out of necessity. Yeah, it would take one hell of a plague to do that, but it was a hypothetical. Post WW1, say, 1935 range. Or a massive natural disaster, like yellowstone erupting, or whatever, just something so devastating at the end of the depression that the nation just splits into smaller ones. Unlikely, but for the sake of my argument of what the world would look like if the USA had fallen post WW1, just before WW2.

But yes, WW1 shaped the next 100 years. No doubt about that.

To put it bluntly, if a massive plague takes out the U.S. then I'd hate to see the condition of the rest of the world.

Well, right now the rest of the world is supporting Obama, so who knows.




Sorry guys. I couldn't resist that one.