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You think if those workers earn less just because they want the consumer to spend less? Yeah right. If they could earn a union wage, they would jump for the possibility.
Destroying collective bargaining, which means destroying the unions would be a huge win for Republicans. Democrats would lose support from unions, a big deal. It would also allow large corporations that employ blue collar workers to push wages down to meet foreign competition, another big win for Republicans.
Destroying collective bargaining also allows states and local government to cut the biggest part of their budget, public education and make no mistake, they will do so. This again serves Republicans. They have made it quite clear that they want to see public education replaced with private schools funded by tuitions and government vouchers for the poor.
Destruction of collective bargaining is not about solving a temporary budget problem. It is about a permanent shift in political power and a major change in American society.
That is exactly correct. The unions in government have been negotiated against disinterested third parties for years. The Unions are greedy and the opposing negotiators have no skin in the game.
As a result, teachers earn 42% more than their USA co-workers in the private sector.
Let's look at this a different way. Our 12th grade students rank right behind The Czech Republic in Test Scores internationally. The average American teacher is paid $4,055/month. The average Czech Republic Teacher is paid $681/month.
So our teacheers are paid about 6 times as much to produce an inferior result. What may we gleen from this?
Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results
Teacher Average Salary Income - International Comparison
All the teachers I know live from paycheck to paycheck. Its hard to attract good teachers without a reasonable salary, the possibility of which in Wisconsin has now gone out the door. Their education is going to suffer because they aren't going to attract the best teachers.
In response to those who dance on the Unions grave...
I'm not sure anyone can claim victory here. (But that's a cute dancing icon anyhow...)
Did busting union right get your job back? (I mean "your job" as a collective, not a specific reference). Busting the unions is not likely to accomplish that. Your job did not get up and walk away by itself. It's gone mostly because it was shipped overseas by billionaires like David and Charles Koch, the same folks who put Gov Walker in power. Your job was not worth his time to save, because David Koch can hire six employees overseas to replace you.
<snip>
So, just to be clear, the good folks who are assembling Hondas, Toyotas and Subarus right here here in the USA are people who are dupes of big business? These are non-union folks who build a quality product and do so for less money making their superior product less costly for the consumer.
The evil rich folks exported jobs overseas say the hypnotized automatons of the left. In the mean time, the union members produce inferior products that are more costly and spend most of their time trying to figure out how to screw the supervisor and work the system.
The people who actively work to make the product less competitive see their jobs go to people who actively work to make their product more competitive. Then, the union guys who strive to make their value go down complain when the producers find that there is higher value elsewhere.
What's wrong with this picture?
You think if those workers earn less just because they want the consumer to spend less? Yeah right. If they could earn a union wage, they would jump for the possibility.
Just look how the union thugs handled the situation with a mass riot in the capital building for days on end turning it into a pigpen.
If the Tea Party had done the same the media would have been all over them.
When the union heads turn into thugs you got to bust the unions. Walker is a hero.
These idiots in the union get paid by the taxpayers and the taxpayers are broke. Look at this goofball Michael Moore saying the state and the U.S. is not broke. What planet does he live on?
That statement right there makes me think you are either David Koch or Sam Walton.
For salaries to have a major impact on education, they would have to be a lot higher in order to attract America's best which is what we need in the classroom. Unfortunately that is not going to happen, until the public realizing that this country is going nowhere without a higher skilled and more capable generation of young adults.Destroying collective bargaining, which means destroying the unions would be a huge win for Republicans. Democrats would lose support from unions, a big deal. It would also allow large corporations that employ blue collar workers to push wages down to meet foreign competition, another big win for Republicans.
Destroying collective bargaining also allows states and local government to cut the biggest part of their budget, public education and make no mistake, they will do so. This again serves Republicans. They have made it quite clear that they want to see public education replaced with private schools funded by tuitions and government vouchers for the poor.
Destruction of collective bargaining is not about solving a temporary budget problem. It is about a permanent shift in political power and a major change in American society.
That is exactly correct. The unions in government have been negotiated against disinterested third parties for years. The Unions are greedy and the opposing negotiators have no skin in the game.
As a result, teachers earn 42% more than their USA co-workers in the private sector.
Let's look at this a different way. Our 12th grade students rank right behind The Czech Republic in Test Scores internationally. The average American teacher is paid $4,055/month. The average Czech Republic Teacher is paid $681/month.
So our teacheers are paid about 6 times as much to produce an inferior result. What may we gleen from this?
Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results
Teacher Average Salary Income - International Comparison
All the teachers I know live from paycheck to paycheck. Its hard to attract good teachers without a reasonable salary, the possibility of which in Wisconsin has now gone out the door. Their education is going to suffer because they aren't going to attract the best teachers.
For salaries to have a major impact on education, they would have to be a lot higher in order to attract America's best which is what we need in the classroom. Unfortunately that is not going to happen, until the public realizing that this country is going nowhere without a higher skilled and more capable generation of young adults.That is exactly correct. The unions in government have been negotiated against disinterested third parties for years. The Unions are greedy and the opposing negotiators have no skin in the game.
As a result, teachers earn 42% more than their USA co-workers in the private sector.
Let's look at this a different way. Our 12th grade students rank right behind The Czech Republic in Test Scores internationally. The average American teacher is paid $4,055/month. The average Czech Republic Teacher is paid $681/month.
So our teacheers are paid about 6 times as much to produce an inferior result. What may we gleen from this?
Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results
Teacher Average Salary Income - International Comparison
All the teachers I know live from paycheck to paycheck. Its hard to attract good teachers without a reasonable salary, the possibility of which in Wisconsin has now gone out the door. Their education is going to suffer because they aren't going to attract the best teachers.
I am hoping unions will still be able to bargain to reduce classes sizes and many other things that can really improve education. Salaries are important, but not the most important at this time.
Teachers unions are needed because state legislatures, state DOE, and local school districts have proved that they are totally ineffective at bringing about improvements that effect the mainstream kids. I think the bureaucracies are pretty good at financial management, building schools, and providing special programs, but they just fail miserably when it comes to seeing that mainstream kids get a better education. This is causing a huge problem as these kids enter college. We are seeing more and more kids going into science and engineering without a basic background in math and science. We are seeing kids going into teaching that are just a step above being functionally illiterate.
No, SAT scores have not fallen. They remain about the same. To say schools were doing better 50 years ago than today is ridiculous. We have made tremendous advances over the last 50 years. In Special Education we are treating and educating millions of kids with learning disabilities such ADD, Asperger Syndrome, and a host of reading disabilities. These kids would have been casualties of the system in 1960. Over a million gifted students are earning college credit through advanced placement programs today. Magnet schools are providing specializing education in sciences, arts, and music. Most high schools today offer advanced math such as calculus, advanced physics, advanced biology, earth/space science and a host of other college level classes.I am hoping unions will still be able to bargain to reduce classes sizes and many other things that can really improve education. Salaries are important, but not the most important at this time.
They have been doing that for 30 years,and to what result?? Going to school in the 60's and 70's we had 30 + kids in ALL my classes,and much higher SAT scores than the same school district is producing now,it hasn't worked. There are 3 times the administration on staff then now,4 times the teachers and aids,and it hasn't worked,scores are lower,and the are breaking the local tax payers with double digit increases EVERY year,it isn't working out at all.
Yes, there are actual people, and a lot of them, that plan the curriculum to achieve the desired results. Most of these people work for the state dept. of education, but theres a lot of variation from state to state. Curriculum development is often based on research done at universities. The curriculum content and guidelines define the goals of the course and required content. At the district level there are usually curriculum supervisors who work with the curriculum and guide the teachers in developing lesson plans. The lesson plan is a daily plan of classroom activities. This is the teachers responsibility. The curriculum supervisor should review the teachers lesson plan periodically as well as visiting the classroom.For salaries to have a major impact on education, they would have to be a lot higher in order to attract America's best which is what we need in the classroom. Unfortunately that is not going to happen, until the public realizing that this country is going nowhere without a higher skilled and more capable generation of young adults.All the teachers I know live from paycheck to paycheck. Its hard to attract good teachers without a reasonable salary, the possibility of which in Wisconsin has now gone out the door. Their education is going to suffer because they aren't going to attract the best teachers.
I am hoping unions will still be able to bargain to reduce classes sizes and many other things that can really improve education. Salaries are important, but not the most important at this time.
Teachers unions are needed because state legislatures, state DOE, and local school districts have proved that they are totally ineffective at bringing about improvements that effect the mainstream kids. I think the bureaucracies are pretty good at financial management, building schools, and providing special programs, but they just fail miserably when it comes to seeing that mainstream kids get a better education. This is causing a huge problem as these kids enter college. We are seeing more and more kids going into science and engineering without a basic background in math and science. We are seeing kids going into teaching that are just a step above being functionally illiterate.
Everything you said is a powerful argument against the existance of talent and initiative within the educational community of the USA. Are there actual people that plan the ciriculum to achieve the desired results or is there just a machine somewhere that arbitrarily prints out directives that the hapless, boken spirited administators and teachers employ?
Right now in Indiana, the public schools pay almost twice as much per student to educate as do the private schools. The public school results are dismal and the results keep declining. What should this tell us?
I'll tell what it should tell us: If we are spending twice the amount to gain a lower result, we need to examine the processes and proceedures of the private schools so we can cut the expense by almost half or increase the qualty by almost double.
Immediately saying that class sizes will increase if we reduce funding is ignoring the obvious: The system right now is wastefully spending money to achieve low results and it looks to be trying to continue with more of the same.
The system is broken and the costs are too high.
Start with that as the premise and the rest will reveal itself.
I've read quite a bit about some of the educational systems of countries whose students test higher than US students. For the most part, it's not that we are doing poorer. We are doing just about the same as we have been doing for the last 10 years or longer, better in some disciplines and worse in others. One of the main reasons many countries are moving ahead of the US is that their goals in public education are much narrower than ours. In other words, they are not trying to push the entire student population through college. For students that can't do the work, dropping out is more acceptable than in the US, a very different concept than we have.Taking away from our teachers the right to bargain for better compensation will certainly not improve education, but of course that’s not the intent.
Thanks, Flopper, for that spot-on comment.
I am sympathetic to the views that American public education is expensive and ineffective. But let's focus on the key word here: "public".
By taking a look around at what qualifies as a "public school student" these days, it isn't difficult to understand why educators are not inspired to be great teachers. The brilliant ones have gone on to private schools, leaving the public school teacher to try and "educate" some folks who are plain unteachable. The teacher is also expected to deal with gangs, graffiti, bullying, crimes, even gun violence (putting his own life at risk) in addition to actual teaching, testing, lesson planning and inspiring students to take education seriously.
(Do teachers in the Czech Republic have to deal with the same social/violent issues we have here in the States? Does the Czech teacher's lower salary take into account the high prices and standard of living in the States?)
And yet, at the end of the day, many of us still blame the teacher for the problems of our society.
My point is, isn't it time we stopped scapegoating teachers for the "inferior product" (as some posters defined it), for the bad economy, the robbing of the tax payer, and the high unemployment?
Education is our best hedge against unemployment, and yet it is always the first to undergo funding cuts, leaving teachers to their own devices, funds and overtime to fill in the gaps.
The teachers are not the problem, people. They are the solution.
Education is our best solution to all social ills. But there are also many problems. First, education is not cheap. Second, it is only as effective as the teachers and students participating in it. We cannot improve a system with just money because it isn't a mechanical process. It is not a corporation or a transportation system. It is a completely "human" system. It only works for those who put in the required effort to reap its benefits, the teachers, the students, the parents, the administrator, the community....everyone.
Sadly, the teachers take the blame for a failed system regardless of who is not putting in the expected effort.
So I say beware of Walker. He really is not interested in improving education or balancing the budget. He and his wealthy friends have a much bigger plan in mind...
Just look how the union thugs handled the situation with a mass riot in the capital building for days on end turning it into a pigpen.
If the Tea Party had done the same the media would have been all over them.
When the union heads turn into thugs you got to bust the unions. Walker is a hero.
These idiots in the union get paid by the taxpayers and the taxpayers are broke. Look at this goofball Michael Moore saying the state and the U.S. is not broke. What planet does he live on?
That statement right there makes me think you are either David Koch or Sam Walton.
Yes, there are actual people, and a lot of them, that plan the curriculum to achieve the desired results. Most of these people work for the state dept. of education, but theres a lot of variation from state to state. Curriculum development is often based on research done at universities. The curriculum content and guidelines define the goals of the course and required content. At the district level there are usually curriculum supervisors who work with the curriculum and guide the teachers in developing lesson plans. The lesson plan is a daily plan of classroom activities. This is the teachers responsibility. The curriculum supervisor should review the teachers lesson plan periodically as well as visiting the classroom.For salaries to have a major impact on education, they would have to be a lot higher in order to attract America's best which is what we need in the classroom. Unfortunately that is not going to happen, until the public realizing that this country is going nowhere without a higher skilled and more capable generation of young adults.
I am hoping unions will still be able to bargain to reduce classes sizes and many other things that can really improve education. Salaries are important, but not the most important at this time.
Teachers unions are needed because state legislatures, state DOE, and local school districts have proved that they are totally ineffective at bringing about improvements that effect the mainstream kids. I think the bureaucracies are pretty good at financial management, building schools, and providing special programs, but they just fail miserably when it comes to seeing that mainstream kids get a better education. This is causing a huge problem as these kids enter college. We are seeing more and more kids going into science and engineering without a basic background in math and science. We are seeing kids going into teaching that are just a step above being functionally illiterate.
Everything you said is a powerful argument against the existance of talent and initiative within the educational community of the USA. Are there actual people that plan the ciriculum to achieve the desired results or is there just a machine somewhere that arbitrarily prints out directives that the hapless, boken spirited administators and teachers employ?
Right now in Indiana, the public schools pay almost twice as much per student to educate as do the private schools. The public school results are dismal and the results keep declining. What should this tell us?
I'll tell what it should tell us: If we are spending twice the amount to gain a lower result, we need to examine the processes and proceedures of the private schools so we can cut the expense by almost half or increase the qualty by almost double.
Immediately saying that class sizes will increase if we reduce funding is ignoring the obvious: The system right now is wastefully spending money to achieve low results and it looks to be trying to continue with more of the same.
The system is broken and the costs are too high.
Start with that as the premise and the rest will reveal itself.
Those who are not familiar with public schools, consider it shocking that the cost of educating a student may be much less at private schools. Private schools are allowed to pick their students where public schools cannot. One of the most expensive programs in public schools is special education. Special Ed. includes students with learning, physical, and mental disabilities. The cost of educating these kids is huge. Classes may only include one or two students. Homebound students are one on one. Its not unusually for the costs to be 5 or 10 times or more than the cost of educating a regular student. Private schools typical either turn down Special Ed. students or rely on the district to provide the required services. Kids with a criminal background, limited language capabilities, or those with other special needs are usually nixed by private schools. Also, private schools will often pick up the curriculum developed by public education, thus avoiding that expense. In a private school, its all about keeping cost low and academic standards high and that means picking the best kids and leaving the remainder to public education.
Public schools are required by the legislature to do all kinds of things that private schools aren't. Since taxpayer money is being used in public schools, the legislature will often require exhaustive documentation on every dollar spent and voluminous reporting on classroom achievements. The DOE often adds to these requirements making huge demands on the time of teachers and district level personnel. This is primary reason for so many district level people.
Considering what we ask public schools to do, our expectations are very high. We expect the schools to education students from the ghetto; students that have little or no English capability, kids with physical, mental, and learning disabilities. At same time we want special classes for the gifted and advanced placement programs. And of course every time the legislature decides the kids need a class in first aid, personnel finance, state history, rock climbing or god knows what else, the schools must provide it. Public schools are also expected to provide all kinds of services to community, ranging from assistance to parents doing home schooling to providing schools as disaster shelters. Teachers are responsible for classroom discipline but cant discipline students. Support at home by parents is critical, yet the schools have no power to require that parents do anything.
Taking away from our teachers the right to bargain for better compensation will certainly not improve education, but of course thats not the intent.
