Wisconsin Collective Bargaining Law is Working

[DaGoose]

I was laid off in April 2009, why is a teacher in Cali. worth more than I am? think and answer carefully.



you should really be careful using that analogy. Why? because it sux.

MY TAXS pay for other jobs just as yours does, WHY should ANYONE be averse to a bad economy? Because they work in a union only makes it more difficult to let them go...its NOT a justification for their job.

The worth of a good teacher is as valuble as it is incalculable. Good teachers change lives, teach confidence and inspire motivation. It's hard to measure the affect they have on our society.



Study Rethinks Importance of Kindergarten Teachers - NYTimes.com

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The worth of a good teacher is as valuble as it is incalculable. Good teachers change lives, teach confidence and inspire motivation. It's hard to measure the affect they have on our society.

this means exactly.....squat.

a) who says the best teachers get let go, b) it matters not, I was the best at what I did and hey, it was not cost effective to keep me, c) cheap emotionalism is not a get of jail free card. that argument is totally bogus.

oh and please answer my question, how many sq ft. is your home, how much acreage if any around it..thx.

No problem. I have a 45 year old 1500 square foot ranch style brick home that sits on 3 acres out in the country 5 miles from a small town.

Where I live it is worth from $125K-150K. It's probably worth many times that in your neck of the woods.

.

 

[DaGoose]

Wonder how long DaGewse will enjoy slamming his fingers in the car door of reality? Something tells me for a long time to come.

What reality? So far I have put many misconceptions that you guys have to rest. They include...

1) Public union workers are not the bad guys
2) They did not cause the budget messes
3) Defined benefits pensions are still being used by approx 1/3 of the major corporations so their pension benefits are not entirely out of line
4) That the "will of the people" will largely be determined when the recall plays out in a few weeks
5) You should try and get a better job instead of crying about what other people get in theirs
6) That even with 3 to 4 people taking me on you guys cannot get the upper hand in this argument

Thare's your reality, my friend.

.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Wonder how long DaGewse will enjoy slamming his fingers in the car door of reality? Something tells me for a long time to come.

What reality? So far I have put many misconceptions that you guys have to rest. They include...

3) Defined benefits pensions are still being used by approx 1/3 of the major corporations
Thare's your reality, my friend.

.

I don't think your link proves what you think it proves.

•According to the wealth management firm SEI’s Pension Lifecycle Meter released this month, only 36 percent of corporate defined benefit pension plans are active or open to new hires, while the remaining 64 percent are closed to new entrants (31 percent), frozen (30 percent), or terminating (3 percent). The closed plans do not allow new hires to enroll but participants still accrue benefits, while frozen plans are closed to new entrants and participants no longer accrue benefits.

I read this as, out of 100 corporate defined benefit pension plans, only 36 are active or open to new hires.
It doesn't say how many companies had them but have terminated them or how many companies never had them.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Who do you think makes up the unions?

.

It's not personal with the workers. Cut the bullshit. And it really doesn't matter how much you whine. We're still going after the unions.
Get this straight. We can no longer afford the public worker union demands while the private sector continues to get hammered.
We're done with this shit.

Sooo....since you're not smart or motivated enough to go get a job (public or private) with good pension benefits you want to deprive those who are.

And like it or not if you "go after the unions" you ARE going after and hurting the workers who make up those unions. So your logic is well....illogical to say the least.

And we'll find out in a few weeks if "WE" do not support public unions or not when this recall takes place.

.

That argument? Please.
Look genius, 8% of the total US workforce is unionized. roughly 20% of all public workers are represented by unions. Unions are the most likely source of defined benefit pensions.
Based on your "logic" 93% of us are shall we say , less than intelligent? Is that what this comes down to? You have some nerve
It is life in the unions that is unrealistic. Who the hell ever heard of "job security" unless one was in a union? Who the hell ever heard of rejecting pay based on productivity unless one was in a union?
Look, the current system of compensating unionized public workers has grown so one sided, so out of control, it has to be stopped. It is unrealistic to expect taxpayers to keep digging deeper and deeper to fund salaries and benefits of people who's job it is to serve the public. The most frustrating aspect of this issue is public workers have come to feel entitled to a better set of circumstances than the people they serve. That's not right and we will stop it.
There is no justification for these expenses. Not when 80% of public workers are not represented by unions.
I just posted a link yesterday which obviously you either did not read or dismissed. I used a property in Asbury Park ,NJ that was valued at $109,000. That owner's property tax liability for 2010 was over $5,700. Most of that goes to school taxes and municipal employee wages/ benefits.
I also included a story about how NJ public workers protested the State mandated annual tax cap levy of 2%. Why were the unions so opposed? Because they were concerned about their raises....RAISES!!!!! Now please, who is greedy?
Unionized public employees with their constant carping and moaning are not endearing themselves to the general public.
IF they were smart enough to realize the best way to gain support for one's plight is to gain the trust of others not in that person's situation. But no. The unions once again instinctively put up a loud mouthed battle and pissed off a lot of people they could have once counted on for support. That's gone now. Too late. Now that the facts are out about how much these employee wages and benefits cost and the union leadership attitude, the public is no longer on their side. Now there is anger brewing and that anger is being cast in the direction of the public worker unions.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Wonder how long DaGewse will enjoy slamming his fingers in the car door of reality? Something tells me for a long time to come.

What reality? So far I have put many misconceptions that you guys have to rest. They include...

1) Public union workers are not the bad guys
2) They did not cause the budget messes
3) Defined benefits pensions are still being used by approx 1/3 of the major corporations so their pension benefits are not entirely out of line
4) That the "will of the people" will largely be determined when the recall plays out in a few weeks
5) You should try and get a better job instead of crying about what other people get in theirs
6) That even with 3 to 4 people taking me on you guys cannot get the upper hand in this argument

Thare's your reality, my friend.

.

1)Not when the taxpayers are footing the bill. No sir!.
2)Your argument presupposes the availability of unionized government work to every single person.
3)Your point 6 is truly pointless. Why throw out that silly juvenile statement.

4)You persist in making the same argument that has been demolished. You cannot justify why it is you think taxpayers should just take it and shut up about it when their property taxes are increased to pay for unionized worker pay and benefits. When does it end?
The taxpayers don't get a break ,huh?.....

5)my right foot is sore..........















from kicking your ass in this discussion.

 

[DaGoose]

It's not personal with the workers. Cut the bullshit. And it really doesn't matter how much you whine. We're still going after the unions.
Get this straight. We can no longer afford the public worker union demands while the private sector continues to get hammered.
We're done with this shit.

Sooo....since you're not smart or motivated enough to go get a job (public or private) with good pension benefits you want to deprive those who are.

And like it or not if you "go after the unions" you ARE going after and hurting the workers who make up those unions. So your logic is well....illogical to say the least.

And we'll find out in a few weeks if "WE" do not support public unions or not when this recall takes place.

.

That argument? Please.
Look genius, 8% of the total US workforce is unionized. roughly 20% of all public workers are represented by unions. Unions are the most likely source of defined benefit pensions.
Based on your "logic" 93% of us are shall we say , less than intelligent? Is that what this comes down to? You have some nerve
It is life in the unions that is unrealistic. Who the hell ever heard of "job security" unless one was in a union? Who the hell ever heard of rejecting pay based on productivity unless one was in a union?
Look, the current system of compensating unionized public workers has grown so one sided, so out of control, it has to be stopped. It is unrealistic to expect taxpayers to keep digging deeper and deeper to fund salaries and benefits of people who's job it is to serve the public. The most frustrating aspect of this issue is public workers have come to feel entitled to a better set of circumstances than the people they serve. That's not right and we will stop it.
There is no justification for these expenses. Not when 80% of public workers are not represented by unions.
I just posted a link yesterday which obviously you either did not read or dismissed. I used a property in Asbury Park ,NJ that was valued at $109,000. That owner's property tax liability for 2010 was over $5,700. Most of that goes to school taxes and municipal employee wages/ benefits.
I also included a story about how NJ public workers protested the State mandated annual tax cap levy of 2%. Why were the unions so opposed? Because they were concerned about their raises....RAISES!!!!! Now please, who is greedy?
Unionized public employees with their constant carping and moaning are not endearing themselves to the general public.
IF they were smart enough to realize the best way to gain support for one's plight is to gain the trust of others not in that person's situation. But no. The unions once again instinctively put up a loud mouthed battle and pissed off a lot of people they could have once counted on for support. That's gone now. Too late. Now that the facts are out about how much these employee wages and benefits cost and the union leadership attitude, the public is no longer on their side. Now there is anger brewing and that anger is being cast in the direction of the public worker unions.

And I concede that you make some good points but you aim your anger in the wrong direction. Here is where you go astray........

The bottom line is that every penney of public union workers wages and benefits are NEGOTIATED with lawyers and elected representatives.

If you're unhappy with things don't point your finger at the people collecting your trash, squeegeeing your shit off the walls in the sewage treatment plants, teaching your stupid children or swining a sledgehammer on a 95 degree day in the hot sun. They are only interested in working and providing a living for their family, like you and me.

Next time you need to vent why don't you stand by your curb on trash day and accuse the garbage collectors of being lazy leeches on the taxpayers dole and that they don't deserve the pay they collect? Because that's what you're doing here and it's easy when you can hide behind the internet.

You need to take it up with your elected representatives to stop negotiating things you disagree with. THAT'S the democratic process.

And again......we'll find out in a few weeks if the average taxpayers do not support public unions or not when this recall takes place. I think most of the voters will identify with their friends and neighbors that go to work every day and support their families like every other hard working Joe that works for a private company.

Now THERE'S some reality for you.

.

 

[DaGoose]

Wonder how long DaGewse will enjoy slamming his fingers in the car door of reality? Something tells me for a long time to come.

What reality? So far I have put many misconceptions that you guys have to rest. They include...

1) Public union workers are not the bad guys
2) They did not cause the budget messes
3) Defined benefits pensions are still being used by approx 1/3 of the major corporations so their pension benefits are not entirely out of line
4) That the "will of the people" will largely be determined when the recall plays out in a few weeks
5) You should try and get a better job instead of crying about what other people get in theirs
6) That even with 3 to 4 people taking me on you guys cannot get the upper hand in this argument

Thare's your reality, my friend.

.

1)Not when the taxpayers are footing the bill. No sir!.
2)Your argument presupposes the availability of unionized government work to every single person.
3)Your point 6 is truly pointless. Why throw out that silly juvenile statement.

4)You persist in making the same argument that has been demolished. You cannot justify why it is you think taxpayers should just take it and shut up about it when their property taxes are increased to pay for unionized worker pay and benefits. When does it end?
The taxpayers don't get a break ,huh?.....

5)my right foot is sore..........

from kicking your ass in this discussion.

My ass is just fine but my heel is a bit sore from you nipping at it like a rabid poodle.

Please point out what arguments of mine that you have demolished? I'm guessing that you just think you've demolished one or more in your mind. But thinking that doesn't make it so.

I never said that you need to find a UNION job to get better wages and benefits. In fact, many companies pay great wages to keep the unions out.

So if you're unhappy in your low paying job it sucks to be you. But guess what? YOU CAN DO BETTER IF YOU'RE WILLING TO PUT FORTH A LITTLE EFFORT.

.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Sooo....since you're not smart or motivated enough to go get a job (public or private) with good pension benefits you want to deprive those who are.

And like it or not if you "go after the unions" you ARE going after and hurting the workers who make up those unions. So your logic is well....illogical to say the least.

And we'll find out in a few weeks if "WE" do not support public unions or not when this recall takes place.

.

That argument? Please.
Look genius, 8% of the total US workforce is unionized. roughly 20% of all public workers are represented by unions. Unions are the most likely source of defined benefit pensions.
Based on your "logic" 93% of us are shall we say , less than intelligent? Is that what this comes down to? You have some nerve
It is life in the unions that is unrealistic. Who the hell ever heard of "job security" unless one was in a union? Who the hell ever heard of rejecting pay based on productivity unless one was in a union?
Look, the current system of compensating unionized public workers has grown so one sided, so out of control, it has to be stopped. It is unrealistic to expect taxpayers to keep digging deeper and deeper to fund salaries and benefits of people who's job it is to serve the public. The most frustrating aspect of this issue is public workers have come to feel entitled to a better set of circumstances than the people they serve. That's not right and we will stop it.
There is no justification for these expenses. Not when 80% of public workers are not represented by unions.
I just posted a link yesterday which obviously you either did not read or dismissed. I used a property in Asbury Park ,NJ that was valued at $109,000. That owner's property tax liability for 2010 was over $5,700. Most of that goes to school taxes and municipal employee wages/ benefits.
I also included a story about how NJ public workers protested the State mandated annual tax cap levy of 2%. Why were the unions so opposed? Because they were concerned about their raises....RAISES!!!!! Now please, who is greedy?
Unionized public employees with their constant carping and moaning are not endearing themselves to the general public.
IF they were smart enough to realize the best way to gain support for one's plight is to gain the trust of others not in that person's situation. But no. The unions once again instinctively put up a loud mouthed battle and pissed off a lot of people they could have once counted on for support. That's gone now. Too late. Now that the facts are out about how much these employee wages and benefits cost and the union leadership attitude, the public is no longer on their side. Now there is anger brewing and that anger is being cast in the direction of the public worker unions.

And I concede that you make some good points but you aim your anger in the wrong direction. Here is where you go astray........

The bottom line is that every penney of public union workers wages and benefits are NEGOTIATED with lawyers and elected representatives.

If you're unhappy with things don't point your finger at the people collecting your trash, squeegeeing your shit off the walls in the sewage treatment plants, teaching your stupid children or swining a sledgehammer on a 95 degree day in the hot sun. They are only interested in working and providing a living for their family, like you and me.

Next time you need to vent why don't you stand by your curb on trash day and accuse the garbage collectors of being lazy leeches on the taxpayers dole and that they don't deserve the pay they collect? Because that's what you're doing here and it's easy when you can hide behind the internet.

You need to take it up with your elected representatives to stop negotiating things you disagree with. THAT'S the democratic process.


.

And when the people of Wisconsin elect representatives to renegotiate things, what's the problem?

 

[DaGoose]

That argument? Please.
Look genius, 8% of the total US workforce is unionized. roughly 20% of all public workers are represented by unions. Unions are the most likely source of defined benefit pensions.
Based on your "logic" 93% of us are shall we say , less than intelligent? Is that what this comes down to? You have some nerve
It is life in the unions that is unrealistic. Who the hell ever heard of "job security" unless one was in a union? Who the hell ever heard of rejecting pay based on productivity unless one was in a union?
Look, the current system of compensating unionized public workers has grown so one sided, so out of control, it has to be stopped. It is unrealistic to expect taxpayers to keep digging deeper and deeper to fund salaries and benefits of people who's job it is to serve the public. The most frustrating aspect of this issue is public workers have come to feel entitled to a better set of circumstances than the people they serve. That's not right and we will stop it.
There is no justification for these expenses. Not when 80% of public workers are not represented by unions.
I just posted a link yesterday which obviously you either did not read or dismissed. I used a property in Asbury Park ,NJ that was valued at $109,000. That owner's property tax liability for 2010 was over $5,700. Most of that goes to school taxes and municipal employee wages/ benefits.
I also included a story about how NJ public workers protested the State mandated annual tax cap levy of 2%. Why were the unions so opposed? Because they were concerned about their raises....RAISES!!!!! Now please, who is greedy?
Unionized public employees with their constant carping and moaning are not endearing themselves to the general public.
IF they were smart enough to realize the best way to gain support for one's plight is to gain the trust of others not in that person's situation. But no. The unions once again instinctively put up a loud mouthed battle and pissed off a lot of people they could have once counted on for support. That's gone now. Too late. Now that the facts are out about how much these employee wages and benefits cost and the union leadership attitude, the public is no longer on their side. Now there is anger brewing and that anger is being cast in the direction of the public worker unions.

And I concede that you make some good points but you aim your anger in the wrong direction. Here is where you go astray........

The bottom line is that every penney of public union workers wages and benefits are NEGOTIATED with lawyers and elected representatives.

If you're unhappy with things don't point your finger at the people collecting your trash, squeegeeing your shit off the walls in the sewage treatment plants, teaching your stupid children or swining a sledgehammer on a 95 degree day in the hot sun. They are only interested in working and providing a living for their family, like you and me.

Next time you need to vent why don't you stand by your curb on trash day and accuse the garbage collectors of being lazy leeches on the taxpayers dole and that they don't deserve the pay they collect? Because that's what you're doing here and it's easy when you can hide behind the internet.

You need to take it up with your elected representatives to stop negotiating things you disagree with. THAT'S the democratic process.


.

And when the people of Wisconsin elect representatives to renegotiate things, what's the problem?

There is no problem with that at all unless they don't negotiate the way that the people want. For example, going beyond the budget concerns and stripping the union of their right to collective bargaining which doesn't save the taxpayers a dime. The people rightfully see that as petty, vindictive politics.

So when hard working men and women see OTHER hard working men and women getting pushed around and insulted the orginal hard working men and women tend to take it personal.

So we'll see how well this all plays out in a few weeks, right? The voters will have the last word which is how it's supposed to work.

.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

And I concede that you make some good points but you aim your anger in the wrong direction. Here is where you go astray........

The bottom line is that every penney of public union workers wages and benefits are NEGOTIATED with lawyers and elected representatives.

If you're unhappy with things don't point your finger at the people collecting your trash, squeegeeing your shit off the walls in the sewage treatment plants, teaching your stupid children or swining a sledgehammer on a 95 degree day in the hot sun. They are only interested in working and providing a living for their family, like you and me.

Next time you need to vent why don't you stand by your curb on trash day and accuse the garbage collectors of being lazy leeches on the taxpayers dole and that they don't deserve the pay they collect? Because that's what you're doing here and it's easy when you can hide behind the internet.

You need to take it up with your elected representatives to stop negotiating things you disagree with. THAT'S the democratic process.


.

And when the people of Wisconsin elect representatives to renegotiate things, what's the problem?

There is no problem with that at all unless they don't negotiate the way that the people want. For example, going beyond the budget concerns and stripping the union of their right to collective bargaining which doesn't save the taxpayers a dime. The people rightfully see that as petty, vindictive politics.

So when hard working men and women see OTHER hard working men and women getting pushed around and insulted the orginal hard working men and women tend to take it personal.

So we'll see how well this all plays out in a few weeks, right? The voters will have the last word which is how it's supposed to work.

.

They didn't negotiate the way conservatives want, for decades. Now the shoe is on the left foot.
Federal government employees don't have the right to collective bargaining.
Petty vindictive politics, good for the unions, bad against the unions?
Yes, the voters will have the final say.
Just like they did in 1994, after Clinton over reached.
Just like they did in 2010, after Obama over reached.

 

[daveman]

They didn't negotiate the way conservatives want, for decades. Now the shoe is on the left foot.
Federal government employees don't have the right to collective bargaining.
Petty vindictive politics, good for the unions, bad against the unions?
Yes, the voters will have the final say.
Just like they did in 1994, after Clinton over reached.
Just like they did in 2010, after Obama over reached.

It's only the "will of the people" when liberal policies are enacted.

 

[Vanquish]

They didn't negotiate the way conservatives want, for decades. Now the shoe is on the left foot.
Federal government employees don't have the right to collective bargaining.
Petty vindictive politics, good for the unions, bad against the unions?
Yes, the voters will have the final say.
Just like they did in 1994, after Clinton over reached.
Just like they did in 2010, after Obama over reached.

It's only the "will of the people" when liberal policies are enacted.

Toddster...I guess the logic of 2 wrongs don't make a right just escapes you, huh?

Daveman...both sides pound their chest that any vote that goes their way is "the will of the people." How many times did we hear that the sweeping change in the House of Reps was "the will of the people" or "a mandate"? Lots and Lots and Lots. At least try to be intellectually honest.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

They didn't negotiate the way conservatives want, for decades. Now the shoe is on the left foot.
Federal government employees don't have the right to collective bargaining.
Petty vindictive politics, good for the unions, bad against the unions?
Yes, the voters will have the final say.
Just like they did in 1994, after Clinton over reached.
Just like they did in 2010, after Obama over reached.

It's only the "will of the people" when liberal policies are enacted.

Toddster...I guess the logic of 2 wrongs don't make a right just escapes you, huh?

Daveman...both sides pound their chest that any vote that goes their way is "the will of the people." How many times did we hear that the sweeping change in the House of Reps was "the will of the people" or "a mandate"? Lots and Lots and Lots. At least try to be intellectually honest.

Which 2 wrongs do you imagine escaped me?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

It's only the "will of the people" when liberal policies are enacted.

Toddster...I guess the logic of 2 wrongs don't make a right just escapes you, huh?

Daveman...both sides pound their chest that any vote that goes their way is "the will of the people." How many times did we hear that the sweeping change in the House of Reps was "the will of the people" or "a mandate"? Lots and Lots and Lots. At least try to be intellectually honest.

Which 2 wrongs do you imagine escaped me?

Im curious as to what the wrongs are that are being discussed too.

I'll wait on vanquish before making any comments/judgements.

 

[daveman]

They didn't negotiate the way conservatives want, for decades. Now the shoe is on the left foot.
Federal government employees don't have the right to collective bargaining.
Petty vindictive politics, good for the unions, bad against the unions?
Yes, the voters will have the final say.
Just like they did in 1994, after Clinton over reached.
Just like they did in 2010, after Obama over reached.

It's only the "will of the people" when liberal policies are enacted.

Toddster...I guess the logic of 2 wrongs don't make a right just escapes you, huh?

Daveman...both sides pound their chest that any vote that goes their way is "the will of the people." How many times did we hear that the sweeping change in the House of Reps was "the will of the people" or "a mandate"? Lots and Lots and Lots. At least try to be intellectually honest.

Yet, oddly, that WAS the will of the people. The left, however, did not agree, since the stupid proles didn't do what they were told. How DARE they think for themselves!