Wind energy, the con and cons

[kyzr]

According to this document it looks like the tower is steel, I still say no, seems like an awful amount of steel, but either way steel is better, much more expensive, much more polluting, much more wasteful. I will look a bit more.

Of course this document also states the Nacelle is fiberglass and from what I have posted and found out the Nacelle only has a fiberglass covering, this document states the opposite, simply the Nacelle is fiberglass. Lets see if you can admit when your wrong as easily as I admit when I am wrong. I will type the info, dont seem to know how to cut/paste on this paticular pdf

http://www.windturbinewarehouse.com/pdfs/vestas/Vestas_V90_SAC_DSM_3_20_07.pdf

7.16 Nacelle
Material Fiberglass

OK. I agree that their nacelle housing is fiberglass, but it so light that they don't even list the weight. If you look at
7.15 Nacelle Bedplate its metal, because it has to be able to crane lift the gearbox and generator, which are very heavy, actually 91 Tn.

Just below this section it states the tower is S355 steel, did you know the number in steel such as this represent the other materials in the steel, like magnisium or cobalt or carbon or other stuff, I should look it up to sound so much better educated but the numbers represent the .03 percent material used, second number being another material of .05 percent and the last the same, I could be wrong on percentage but doubtful. I should know but once you learn this you never use this fact again in my business.
Anyhow the tower cannot be pure steel as this brochure states just as we know the Nacelle is not pure fiberglass as this brochure states

Here is a link to S355 steel, its apparently a weathering steel like is used on bridges. Its a plate, which makes sense since they roll it into the tower shape. s 355 j2 | s355 steel plate | s275 steel plate
It makes no engineering sense to make the tower out of fiberglass.
Nice research on the nacelle housing, but it doesn't change the fiberglass weight significantly.

 

[kyzr]

I have to concede the towers are steel, oops, still the Nacelle and the Hub are fiberglass, around a 100 tons, of course I could be wrong, it definately is not twenty tons, much closer to the one hundred ton mark.

http://www.windturbinewarehouse.com/pdfs/vestas/Vestas_V90_SAC_DSM_3_20_07.pdf

I have to figure out how to cut and paste from a pdf file, this pdf has some great construction photos and a bit more detail than the Vestas brochure I was using as my soul reference.

based on 7.15 it looks like the nacelle structure is metal with a fiberglass housing. The nacelle weighs 91Tn, and most of that weight is equipment, like gearbox, generator, and bedplate. The fiberglass weight is only about 20Tn for the blades + something for the housing.

 

[Octoldit]

I am taking the green energy supporters word that they are better educated so if they could please answer a question or two about wind turbines.

How much electricity does an idle wind farm use?

How much electricity does it take to start an idle wind farm?

I have many more questions for you educated green energy windmill supporters but I will see if you people are actually really educated before I post the rest of my questions.

The exhaust from any junctional scrap heap jet engine will provide so much wind that the bearings on the wind mill would have to be high tech and heavy duty to handle the wind load. Few wind mills can currently handle a jet engines full throttle exhaust. Jet engines modified to run on cleaner less expensive fuels are also possible.

Taking back this nation from the terrorist international bankers entails putting a halt to being exploited of all our labor and revenue, the halt of slave labor, usury, tax on our labor, the absence of a gold standard, and from tyranny from a hijacked Federal Government. To boycott and replace all businesses and corporations that use communist illegals aliens rather Americans that refuse to pay a fair and decent wage. To barter our labor, and replace the failing dollar with our own currency is also possible. The Communist within are indeed at war with us, just look up sometimes and notice what they spray in the air to destroy our health. The poison flu shots are filled with toxins for a reason.

The fed is bascally the Soviets which resides at the core of the so-called Federal Reserve system. Just as these same banking establishments financed Lenin, Stalin, and the theft of the whole Russian government. The communist/new world order is now their wicked plan for world conquest. The whole department of homeland security, and the hyjacking of the N.S.A is nothing more than the spread of communism, which was born out of the false flag operation called 9-11 which they masterminded, and have greatly enriched these same beastly and extremely greedy Zionist bankers. They have looted the American treasury and are indeed Communist. When the Zionist Kessinger destroy's Americans industry by giving it to the "communist" chinese what greater proof is needed?

 

[Dystopia]

Never understood the rational reason against wind power, other than the arguments they are an eyesore to the public. If I was the government, to remove seeing them the best place to have them would be in the Rocky Mountain States as the federal government controls in a number of the states more than half of the land of the states. The land of the federal government can have thousands per wind farms and can have millions in total across the Rocky Mountain states that would produce population gains and heavy industry for building and repair of the network.

 

[kyzr]

Never understood the rational reason against wind power, other than the arguments they are an eyesore to the public. If I was the government, to remove seeing them the best place to have them would be in the Rocky Mountain States as the federal government controls in a number of the states more than half of the land of the states. The land of the federal government can have thousands per wind farms and can have millions in total across the Rocky Mountain states that would produce population gains and heavy industry for building and repair of the network.

There is no rationale' against wind power. Except that the Kennedy's don't want to see them, the same way that Pelosi/Boxer/Feinstein don't want to see solar power in the Mojave.
The biggest problem is simple economics. Developers need to build the turbines, then plug into the grid. The development cost generally doesn't warrant development. Its a money losing endeavor, except where the avg wind speed > 13m/s, and the grid is close.
Here you go, find a site and build something "green"....
" + theTitle + "

 

[Dystopia]

Wind speed can be a problem with any place as wind can be too low to produce power or too high that it can damage the structure. What I find better, is the undersea windmills that use tidal forces.

 

[kyzr]

Wind speed can be a problem with any place as wind can be too low to produce power or too high that it can damage the structure. What I find better, is the undersea windmills that use tidal forces.

undersea water moves way too slow to be efficient, plus there is no way to access the equipment for maintenance.
A better way is like they have in Newfoundland
Tidal power in New Brunswick Canada

 

[Old Rocks]

Wind speed can be a problem with any place as wind can be too low to produce power or too high that it can damage the structure. What I find better, is the undersea windmills that use tidal forces.

undersea water moves way too slow to be efficient, plus there is no way to access the equipment for maintenance.
A better way is like they have in Newfoundland
Tidal power in New Brunswick Canada

Wrong.

'Fish technology' draws renewable energy from slow water currents

ANN ARBOR, Mich.—Slow-moving ocean and river currents could be a new, reliable and affordable alternative energy source. A University of Michigan engineer has made a machine that works like a fish to turn potentially destructive vibrations in fluid flows into clean, renewable power.

The machine is called VIVACE. A paper on it is published in the current issue of the quarterly Journal of Offshore Mechanics and Arctic Engineering.

VIVACE is the first known device that could harness energy from most of the water currents around the globe because it works in flows moving slower than 2 knots (about 2 miles per hour.) Most of the Earth's currents are slower than 3 knots. Turbines and water mills need an average of 5 or 6 knots to operate efficiently.

VIVACE stands for Vortex Induced Vibrations for Aquatic Clean Energy. It doesn't depend on waves, tides, turbines or dams. It's a unique hydrokinetic energy system that relies on "vortex induced vibrations."

As we investigate the ways that nature minimizes the use of energy to achieve the needs of it's creatures, we find new ways to power our civilization without messing up the planet.

 

[Old Rocks]

Never understood the rational reason against wind power, other than the arguments they are an eyesore to the public. If I was the government, to remove seeing them the best place to have them would be in the Rocky Mountain States as the federal government controls in a number of the states more than half of the land of the states. The land of the federal government can have thousands per wind farms and can have millions in total across the Rocky Mountain states that would produce population gains and heavy industry for building and repair of the network.

There is no rationale' against wind power. Except that the Kennedy's don't want to see them, the same way that Pelosi/Boxer/Feinstein don't want to see solar power in the Mojave.
The biggest problem is simple economics. Developers need to build the turbines, then plug into the grid. The development cost generally doesn't warrant development. Its a money losing endeavor, except where the avg wind speed > 13m/s, and the grid is close.
Here you go, find a site and build something "green"....
" + theTitle + "

There are places like Southeastern Oregon that have ridges with excellent wind power potential, and valleys and basins with great geo-thermal potential. And the whole area is excellent for both photovoltaic and thermal solar.

And we, the people, own the land. As we post, from Klamath Falls to the Idaho border, the permits and right of way is being aquired for a 500 kv line through the area.

 

[Old Rocks]

I'm not sure how much you researched wind power, but there are significant economic challenges. To answer your questions
1. the electrical power needed to support an idle wind farm is minimal.
2. rotating the blades and the shaft to keep them from warping is only a concern for the gigantic >2Mw turbines. The power needed to "bump" a blade is also minimal. You only need to rotate it a few degrees a day to keep it from developing problems.

The entire concept of wind power is dependent upon the wind speed. In order to be profitable turbines need to be placed where the average wind speed >15m/s. That eliminates most sites. If investors put turbines where they lose money, who loses but investors?
There is a 10-year tax credit to start the industry, it will either learn and succeed, or face reality and fold. Carpe Ventum ("seize the wind")

Your not sure how much I have researched wind power, this simple statement says a whole lot about KYZR, KYZR just posted in 100% Alternative energy, right under four of my posting of facts about wind energy, so to state in this thread you dont know is sloppy on KYZR's part, I understand that you posted in the other thread after this one but after reading the other thread its pretty lazy not to correct yourself here.

KYZR may of just posted and ignored everything posted in 100% Alternative energy.

I will have to repost here but as its plain to see when confronted with questions about energy the environuts must IGNORE AND HIDE from the facts.

The Environuts do not care about facts, they are elitist, they are snobs, they are self centered and full of the themselves. Environuts are so full of themselves they look down on everyone but their own kind. Anyone outside there elite circle is automatically dismissed. They wont even debate, their opinion is right and if a conservative shows a fact all they see is their hatred for anyone else but themselves, even when the environut elitist is trying to appear nice their posts are condensing, preaching, assuming, bigoted, thinly disguised insults. The facts are always ignored and the environut relies on headlines of press releases.

Notice Chrissy and Old Crock are absent from a thread that forces them to answer a question, Where is Cold Fusion, they all hide.

And now KZYR posts that it dont take much energy to turn a 60 ton Nacelle, the turbine blades, the multi ton shaft that supports is, the multi ton generator, nope it dont take much energy at all to turn 1000 of these 270 ton monsters.
270 ton is fact, www.vesta.com

Not to dismiss your research, but I don't think you designed too many wind turbines. Going back up your post in reverse order:
1. your link to "vesta" is wrong. Its Vestas.
2. The rotating blades are perfectly balanced and weigh about 20 tons, not 270
http://www.vestas.com/Files/Filer/EN/Brochures/Vestas_V_90LOW.PDF
3. Calling for reinforcements?? (Chrissy, Crock & cold fusion)
4. I assume you're an environut that you are upset about incorrect "facts"? HINT: on a forum its best to post what you really know. Not what you assume.
5. I didn't read any more than the post I corrected. If you want me to review, please cut/paste.

LOL. KY, this is one of your buds. He really doesn't like me at all. He is a first class loon, as you soon will find out.

 

[mdn2000]

I have to concede the towers are steel, oops, still the Nacelle and the Hub are fiberglass, around a 100 tons, of course I could be wrong, it definately is not twenty tons, much closer to the one hundred ton mark.

http://www.windturbinewarehouse.com/pdfs/vestas/Vestas_V90_SAC_DSM_3_20_07.pdf

I have to figure out how to cut and paste from a pdf file, this pdf has some great construction photos and a bit more detail than the Vestas brochure I was using as my soul reference.

based on 7.15 it looks like the nacelle structure is metal with a fiberglass housing. The nacelle weighs 91Tn, and most of that weight is equipment, like gearbox, generator, and bedplate. The fiberglass weight is only about 20Tn for the blades + something for the housing.

sorry I disappeared from our debate, I had to leave the boards for personal reasons.

so let me change the debate to how much energy does it take to produce the 100s of tons of steel used in a wind mill.

Either way I still win, my points about fiberglass are valid, its a tremendous amount of energy to produce a ton of fiberglass, over a 100 tons per wind mill, the wind mill operates only 10% of the time so it sits idle.

Imagine if Toyota could sell cars that would sit in a field only be used a tenth of the time the average car is used, its that simple, it does not make economic sense to build wind mills. You use more of the earths natural resources to produce less energy.

 

[mdn2000]

Never understood the rational reason against wind power, other than the arguments they are an eyesore to the public. If I was the government, to remove seeing them the best place to have them would be in the Rocky Mountain States as the federal government controls in a number of the states more than half of the land of the states. The land of the federal government can have thousands per wind farms and can have millions in total across the Rocky Mountain states that would produce population gains and heavy industry for building and repair of the network.

Too bad the worst place to put a poor source of electricity in the best locations is in the Rocky Mountain states.

Thousands of wind farms? Dont you mean a trillion wind farms, more like 576 trillion wind farms and even at that number you would still need a 100% fossil fuel back up.

There are a lot of threads and posts where the negative aspects of wind farms are discussed, you should read them.

 

[Old Rocks]

mdn, you are still full of shit. Iowa gets 14% of its power from the wind, Oregon, 8%. And the Oregon number is rising rapidly.

Yap on all you want, the bean counters really like the mills. And now that First Solar is producing solar panels by the Mw, for less than $1 a watt, and Solexant will be coming online with it's first panels produced for less than $0.50 a watt, and that price declining rapidly as they raise the efficiency of the panels, another green technology is producing power far cheaper than the fossil fuels can compete with.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

The exhaust from any junctional scrap heap jet engine will provide so much wind that the bearings on the wind mill would have to be high tech and heavy duty to handle the wind load. Few wind mills can currently handle a jet engines full throttle exhaust.

Horseshit!!!!!
Bearings used in those windmills can handle the load....it's a question of lubrication and heat dissipation in the thrust plate....nothing hi tech about that.

 

[Big Fitz]

How much energy does it take to produce gasoline?
Consider in the drilling, transportation, refining and more transportation.

The EROI for petroleum and coal is around a 10 to 1 ratio of return versus investment. Otherwise all of society would have ground to a halt generations ago. No other energy source save nuclear and hydro electric come even close when you include all costs.

 

[Big Fitz]

I am taking the green energy supporters word that they are better educated so if they could please answer a question or two about wind turbines.

How much electricity does an idle wind farm use?

How much electricity does it take to start an idle wind farm?

I have many more questions for you educated green energy windmill supporters but I will see if you people are actually really educated before I post the rest of my questions.

The exhaust from any junctional scrap heap jet engine will provide so much wind that the bearings on the wind mill would have to be high tech and heavy duty to handle the wind load. Few wind mills can currently handle a jet engines full throttle exhaust. Jet engines modified to run on cleaner less expensive fuels are also possible.

Taking back this nation from the terrorist international bankers entails putting a halt to being exploited of all our labor and revenue, the halt of slave labor, usury, tax on our labor, the absence of a gold standard, and from tyranny from a hijacked Federal Government. To boycott and replace all businesses and corporations that use communist illegals aliens rather Americans that refuse to pay a fair and decent wage. To barter our labor, and replace the failing dollar with our own currency is also possible. The Communist within are indeed at war with us, just look up sometimes and notice what they spray in the air to destroy our health. The poison flu shots are filled with toxins for a reason.

The fed is bascally the Soviets which resides at the core of the so-called Federal Reserve system. Just as these same banking establishments financed Lenin, Stalin, and the theft of the whole Russian government. The communist/new world order is now their wicked plan for world conquest. The whole department of homeland security, and the hyjacking of the N.S.A is nothing more than the spread of communism, which was born out of the false flag operation called 9-11 which they masterminded, and have greatly enriched these same beastly and extremely greedy Zionist bankers. They have looted the American treasury and are indeed Communist. When the Zionist Kessinger destroy's Americans industry by giving it to the "communist" chinese what greater proof is needed?

Oh for cripes sake! Octodolt is back with his Jet Powered windmills again.