Wind and Hot Air..

[flacaltenn]

Recently, there was a claim on USMB about the Loess Wind Turbine field allowing a Mo. city to be one of the first to be TOTALLY WIND POWERED. That's a pretty heady claim considering the nature of the daily production from wind farms. You can GENERATE enough energy over a year's time to EQUAL the power requirements for that city -- But you can't literally power the city from the wind farm without almost total replication of the baseline power resource. IE -- having a redundant backup of some type to rely on.

Here's typical daily production from a WELL-PLACED Danish Wind Farm..

The RATED capacity for this group of turbines is 480,000 KWhrs per day. Note how infrequently the field hits the EXPECTED value of 160,000 KWhrs per day. Also note how looking at production on a DAILY basis virtually destroys the concept of "powering a city" from wind energy alone.

It gets even worse when you look at HOURLY production or MINUTE by MINUTE production.. SURE -- you might be able to accomodate these fluctuations and eek out some peaking potential for the grid. But let's not OVERSELL the utility of this as an "alternative" to anything. We don't power our computers with energy scavenged and averaged over a year. We power them with second by second grid loads.

Here's the general information for this field:

Monthly production | Middelgrundens Vindmøllelaug

The wind turbines Bonus 2 MW are delivered by Bonus Energy A/S. It is the oldest wind turbine factory in the world. It has delivered more than 3,500 turbines since 1980. So far, the 2 MW turbine is Bonus’ biggest with a generator effect of 2000 kW, a hub height of 64 metres, and a rotor diameter of 76 metres. It has the same basic
concept as the Bonus 1 MW and Bonus 1.3 MW. Like these, it is based on experiences from the 600 kW turbine type, which is installed at Lynetten in the Copenhagen harbour. The basic construction of the Bonus 2 MW turbine is adjusted to the rough offshore climate conditions. It has hermetically closed machinery and is cooled with heat
exchangers. A built-in crane can assist in turbine maintenance. The state of the turbines and their output can be surveyed and regulated by an advanced control system. Bonus gives the Middelgrunden project a five-year guarantee on the blades and the gear.

You can follow the production of this wind turbine farm on a minute to minute basis at:

http://www.middelgrund.com/

Before you make claims for how wind can be used as an ALTERNATIVE --- you might want to check the link and see how they're doing up in Denmark..

 

[flacaltenn]

Here's another Daily Production example from Vermont Tech College. A "demo" project paid for likely by DOE dollars...

http://docs.vtwindprogram.org/reports/VTC_10.8.pdf

 

[flacaltenn]

No one interested in Wind as an "alternative"?

I thought wind had a huge fan club.

Guess we can just scratch that one off the list of alternatives along with geothermal and hydro...

 

[flacaltenn]

Wind is Going, Going GONE

No DEFENDERS???

-- because the windy jig is almost up.

Wind and Solar Subsidies Drying Up In Europe

Wind and solar energy subsidies are experiencing drastic cutbacks in many European nations and some places in the United states.

In a radical change of policy, the Netherlands is reducing its targets for renewable energy and slashing the subsidies for wind and solar power. It has also given the green light for the country’s first new nuclear power plants in almost 40 years. Why the change? Wind and solar subsidies are too expensive. Holland thus becomes the first country to abandon the EU-wide target of producing 20 percent of its domestic power from renewables. (1)

Italy’s government passed a decree to stop solar energy and deep cuts in wind energy due to their high costs to consumers and technical problems integrating these sources into the existing infrastructure. (2)

In Spain, ‘green jobs’ can require a subsidy of $1,000,000 per job. Wind-related jobs in Denmark are subsidized at the rate of 175 to 250 percent above average pay, roughly costing taxpayers $90,000 to $140,000 for each ‘green’ employee. (5) Spain increased its electricity costs for households and small businesses 20% between January 2010 and January 2011. The government’s official explanation of this increase is the huge bill for renewables’ subsidies. Industry’s electricity costs have risen 110% and Spain has over 20% official unemployment. (6)

Extreme green Ontario is experiencing rate hikes 50 times greater than those countenanced in some US jurisdictions. (3)

And maybe some explanation for the "no-confidence" votes on subsidies..


Danish Wind Subsidies to be Cut

In the last few days Venstre, the governing party in the Danish parliament, announced that it would be phasing out subsidy for onshore wind power in order to concentrate on other renewables such as biogas and solar.

In a press statement released on the 17th of September, Lars Christian Lilleholt, energy and environment spokesman for Venstre pointed out the very heavy burden now placed on consumers to support wind power, and announced the intention of putting a cap on this in order to concentrate on other technologies.
The change of emphasis comes after a year of increasing concern over the value for money offered by the Danish wind project. In May the Renewable Energy Foundation (REF) published a major study of the Danish and German spot price markets for electricity which noted that wind power was now beginning to place real strains on those systems.


The author of the study, one of Denmark's most respected engineers and a onetime Planning Director for the Danish grid, Mr Paul-Frederik Bach, pointed out that wind was posing problems without obvious or easily costed solutions. (See http://www.ref.org.uk/PublicationDetails/53)
Then in August the Danish think tank CEPOS published a study revealing that the majority of Danish wind power was being exported at below subsidy prices, with a net economic loss to the Danish consumer

Maybe it's got something to do with a source that's there for an hour and gone for a day or two.... That's NOT an alternative..

 

[sparky]

No DEFENDERS???

First off, the article i posted said 1300 residents

2ndly subsides and tax breaks drying up do not a failure make

3rd , i'm a hands on type of fella flatone, and a master electrican with a rapport in alt energy as long as your arm. Granted, i've hooked up no cities to windmills , but i've seen what works for grid tie and stand alone residential systems

That said, I'm not about to argue with not wits waving whatever oilocracy propaganda looking to pick a fight over what they know so little of , and are so biased about , it would take YEARS for them to come up any appreciable speed of tolerable debate

You want to engage in that avenue, may i suggest you join a professional alt energy forum, where you may merrily scream your meager ascii brains out for any takers

regards

~S~

 

[daveman]

The wind-breakers haven't gotten their marching orders yet.

 

[sparky]

may the green machine make you an offer you can't refuse ,if you're still looking for a job Dave

 

[SFC Ollie]

From the title I thought this was just going to be about Washington in general, carry on....

 

[daveman]

may the green machine make you an offer you can't refuse ,if you're still looking for a job Dave

Yeah. Can you offer any refutation of the OP other than "That's STUpid!!"?

I've got experience in power generation, from 3kW portable units to 12MW plants. And if the capacity doesn't meet load demand, you better come up with another source of amps right quick, or the customers are going to be pissed. Platitudes about "saving the Earth" aren't going to take their minds off their cold showers and no air conditioning.

 

[flacaltenn]

No DEFENDERS???

First off, the article i posted said 1300 residents

2ndly subsides and tax breaks drying up do not a failure make

3rd , i'm a hands on type of fella flatone, and a master electrican with a rapport in alt energy as long as your arm. Granted, i've hooked up no cities to windmills , but i've seen what works for grid tie and stand alone residential systems

That said, I'm not about to argue with not wits waving whatever oilocracy propaganda looking to pick a fight over what they know so little of , and are so biased about , it would take YEARS for them to come up any appreciable speed of tolerable debate

You want to engage in that avenue, may i suggest you join a professional alt energy forum, where you may merrily scream your meager ascii brains out for any takers

regards

~S~

Dear Sparky...

I've been doing this for 20 years. I HAVE been in professional forums (is IEEE OK with you?) and I know you have been involved as well. I wouldn't call it bias. I'd call it analysis and logic and reason.

You see those daily production charts don't even begin to qualify wind turbines as an "alternative" to our current baseline generation methods. SURE -- if you can figure out how to react and plan a large grid load with sources that are there for 15 or 20 minutes at a time --- have at it .. If you can figure out how to use that energy to create a buffer fuel like hydrogen or hydropower -- have at it..

But it's time to blow off (pun intended) any pretense that this technology is an "alternative" capable of providing constant reliable power. And we need to figure out exactly where it DOES fit..

Europe IS backing off of their commitment to wind. And I don't think it's JUST because the economy currently sucks.. We need to get serious about what remains on the "alternatives" list...

 

[flacaltenn]

SFC Ollie:

Love that undisclosed location..

"""If I stand on my porch facing East I can Hit PA with a rock"""" Do they return fire?

 

[SFC Ollie]

SFC Ollie:

Love that undisclosed location..

"""If I stand on my porch facing East I can Hit PA with a rock"""" Do they return fire?

On occasion....

 

[Cimerian]

I like wind energy. I've actually been researching putting up wind turbines on my property. When looking at cost of the equipment vs kwh produced wind is way better than solar where I am. Even so I am still looking at 10 yrs before I would see a return on my investment.

 

[Cimerian]

may the green machine make you an offer you can't refuse ,if you're still looking for a job Dave

Yeah. Can you offer any refutation of the OP other than "That's STUpid!!"?

I've got experience in power generation, from 3kW portable units to 12MW plants. And if the capacity doesn't meet load demand, you better come up with another source of amps right quick, or the customers are going to be pissed. Platitudes about "saving the Earth" aren't going to take their minds off their cold showers and no air conditioning.

Try and think outside the box a bit. Also, 12MW really isn't much. You can use many different methods for peak loads. Gas generators, batteries, grid supply, etc... The future of power generation is not a power plant sending power to homes but homes sending power to the plants.

 

[daveman]

may the green machine make you an offer you can't refuse ,if you're still looking for a job Dave

Yeah. Can you offer any refutation of the OP other than "That's STUpid!!"?

I've got experience in power generation, from 3kW portable units to 12MW plants. And if the capacity doesn't meet load demand, you better come up with another source of amps right quick, or the customers are going to be pissed. Platitudes about "saving the Earth" aren't going to take their minds off their cold showers and no air conditioning.

Try and think outside the box a bit. Also, 12MW really isn't much. You can use many different methods for peak loads. Gas generators, batteries, grid supply, etc... The future of power generation is not a power plant sending power to homes but homes sending power to the plants.

Yeah, 12MW is a fair bit. What's the rating on the typical home turbines you're looking at? Oh, and bear in mind they only put that out if the wind's blowing constantly at the specced speed. How often does it do that on your roof?

 

[Cimerian]

Yeah. Can you offer any refutation of the OP other than "That's STUpid!!"?

I've got experience in power generation, from 3kW portable units to 12MW plants. And if the capacity doesn't meet load demand, you better come up with another source of amps right quick, or the customers are going to be pissed. Platitudes about "saving the Earth" aren't going to take their minds off their cold showers and no air conditioning.

Try and think outside the box a bit. Also, 12MW really isn't much. You can use many different methods for peak loads. Gas generators, batteries, grid supply, etc... The future of power generation is not a power plant sending power to homes but homes sending power to the plants.

Yeah, 12MW is a fair bit. What's the rating on the typical home turbines you're looking at? Oh, and bear in mind they only put that out if the wind's blowing constantly at the specced speed. How often does it do that on your roof?

I think I said 12 MW isn't crap. I've generated over 150MW myself personnelly. My main factor is the cost of the towers really. The generators as of now could peak at 4kw

 

[daveman]

Try and think outside the box a bit. Also, 12MW really isn't much. You can use many different methods for peak loads. Gas generators, batteries, grid supply, etc... The future of power generation is not a power plant sending power to homes but homes sending power to the plants.

Yeah, 12MW is a fair bit. What's the rating on the typical home turbines you're looking at? Oh, and bear in mind they only put that out if the wind's blowing constantly at the specced speed. How often does it do that on your roof?

I think I said 12 MW isn't crap.

No, you said it isn't much. Make up your mind.

I've generated over 150MW myself personnelly.

Yay for you.

My main factor is the cost of the towers really. The generators as of now could peak at 4kw

Peak at 4kW? Oooh. That will run 2 and 2/3 hair dryers. IF the wind is blowing. Hard.

Hardly worth the money, that. Get yourself a natural-gas fired generator with an ATS and hook it to the gas line, if you have one. You can run your whole house and it won't matter if the wind isn't blowing.

 

[uscitizen]

The grid is used to balance out the load, One power plant of any type is a poor source of power for any one city. Demand always varies.

As long as the power is used on the grid and enough is generated by wind to cover the cities needs then as far as I am concerned it can be said it powered that city.

the unsued wind power is sold and more is bought later to repalce when there is not as much wind.

 

[flacaltenn]

Cimerian::

If your object is to get off grid with wind -- go for it.. However, that's going to be an environmental disaster if everyone decides to have 3/4 ton of batteries in their basement. All with limited charge/recharge lifetimes.

The wind charts for your area are already available. You know the generation curves for the turbines. There shouldn't be any excuse when you find out that you're just a highly subsidized power station that can't light your bathroom more than 3 nights a week. (At least with solar off-grid -- you can over-install and know that SOME energy is coming in the morning)

And how is this anarchist model of homes transmitting power to the grid with wind/solar gonna work?
(Answer) -- with heavy subsidies for the equipment and the juice. Seems to me we've talked our way into imagining scenarios that haven't been design reviewed..

Now if your neighborhood has one of those compact buried nuclear boxes -- that's a different story. We all chip in and get a guaranteed level source of juice 24/7/365.

 

[flacaltenn]

The grid is used to balance out the load, One power plant of any type is a poor source of power for any one city. Demand always varies.

As long as the power is used on the grid and enough is generated by wind to cover the cities needs then as far as I am concerned it can be said it powered that city.

the unsued wind power is sold and more is bought later to repalce when there is not as much wind.

Clearly RockPort has decided to go into the sporadic and largely unpredictable wind power generation business. It's supported largely by subsidy for equipment and favorable regulations requiring grid operators to favor it's product. The city is not "powered" by wind, but by the money "stored" from it's business. The question of how or if this works on a larger scale is a complicated one requiring better grid design and management and methods for dealing with LARGE amounts of spurious production. Clearly incentives for wind have to match with incentives for the "other" baseload providers to operate at less then their capacity as well. In Denmark, huge amounts of capital have been invested in storage mechanisms such as electric boilers that can scavenge and store the spikey wind sources. And improvements to the grid that we are not costing into this "celebration of achievement" in the US. Largely we haven't even considered paying for the neccessary improvements yet. The hidden costs are monumental. There's a reason why the subsidies and the incentives are going away in Europe. Because they are closer to approaching the limits of this technology. And the limits of the tolerance of the rate payers..