Will this usher in socialism?

[editec]

What a fantasy.

Getting out of Iraq, universal healthcare, and American energy independence is not socialism. Socialism is control of the means of production by the government.

Spot on.

 

[editec]

universal healthcare, right or wrong, is socialism.

It might be.

if the government becomes the employer of health care providers then it's socialism.

If the government merely PAYS non-government health care providers then it's not socialism, its a mixed economic system.

One that will make the health care providers even wealthier than they are already, but in the long run won't solve the problem of health care in this nation, I might add.

 

[editec]

I've earned everything I have. No one gave me anything.

Really?

Did you invent the language you're speaking or did you mother give it to you?

How about mathamatics? Did you invent it, or is it merely a set of skills and knowledge that society gave you?

Shall I go on pointing out all the things which you use which were given you by this society, or do you understand my point?

The reality of life in this world, be it individual or a nation-state, is that you are "entitled" only to what you can take and what you can keep. THAT is the fundamental axiom of the human condition.

Note to self -- do not find yourself on a lifeboat with Zoomie.

 

[Bern80]

Really?

Did you invent the language you're speaking or did you mother give it to you?

How about mathamatics? Did you invent it, or is it merely a set of skills and knowledge that society gave you?

Shall I go on pointing out all the things which you use which were given you by this society, or do you understand my point?

Shall I get into the huge difference between someone giving something to you and actually putting in the effort of learning a skill? Unfortuantely for my non-mathematical brain I haven't found the pill that will simply pop all that knowledge into my head. That's a pretty tranparent argument editec, even for you. You had to know before you even wrote it what a bullshit statement something like 'haveing mathemtical knowledge given to you' is.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Really?

Did you invent the language you're speaking or did you mother give it to you?

How about mathamatics? Did you invent it, or is it merely a set of skills and knowledge that society gave you?

Shall I go on pointing out all the things which you use which were given you by this society, or do you understand my point?



Note to self -- do not find yourself on a lifeboat with Zoomie.

Well, no one gave you any mastery over language, that's for sure. I attained a good mastery of the language through hard work and study. I gained mastery over mathematical principals through hard work and study. I actually know what and how to use a stochastic model, for instance, do you?

No one gave me those skills I obtained them for myself, on my own.

 

[Zoomie1980]

What a fantasy.

Getting out of Iraq, universal healthcare, and American energy independence is not socialism. Socialism is control of the means of production by the government.

Which candidate is now promising any of those? It isn't the two main ones, that's for sure......

 

[elvis]

Can anyone explain to me why someone would be hoping for socialism? I can't figure it out.

 

[editec]

Shall I get into the huge difference between someone giving something to you and actually putting in the effort of learning a skill? Unfortuantely for my non-mathematical brain I haven't found the pill that will simply pop all that knowledge into my head. That's a pretty tranparent argument editec, even for you. You had to know before you even wrote it what a bullshit statement something like 'haveing mathemtical knowledge given to you' is.

I'm just pointing out what utter bullshit it is for ANY OF US to suggest that we are "self made men", Bern.

It is so preposterous a statement that one would think no person of even average IQ would be foolish enough to suggest it,

Now what they mean is that they worked very hard using what fate gave them and that they are entitled to not have it stolen from them by a repressive government.

Nobody, would disagree.

But I do truly get sick of this ALTAS MYTH that kids all tend to grow into when they first get out of the house and start making their own money for a change,

And when that childiosh conceit becomes the tool that the NEO-CONS have used to convince thse idiots that rule by government is inherently a bad thing?

Well them I just have to interject with some reality,

We ALL stand on the shoulders of the generations which came before us.

No human being is a self made man, and thinking you are is no excuse for selfishness.

Yes we DO owe a debt to the society which made it possible for us to do well.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Well, no one gave you any mastery over language, that's for sure. I attained a good mastery of the language through hard work and study. I gained mastery over mathematical principals through hard work and study. I actually know what and how to use a stochastic model, for instance, do you?

No one gave me those skills I obtained them for myself, on my own.

O.k. - How about the public roads you use to make your living? How about the public standards for food safety that keep you from being poisoned by an unscrupulous vendor? How about the nice sleep you enjoy every night, knowing that the public military is on the job keeping you safe? How about the public parks that you enjoy occasionally? How about the public standards in building safety so you can go to work and to play with out that worry?

Shall I go on?

There is a place in America for public involvement in the marketplace.

Conservative or Liberal, we all depend on the rest of us for some things... Enforceable standards, if nothing else.

Most liberals will quickly admit to the value of free markets... Now, if the conservatives will just admit to the value of public involvement, we might be able to move beyond the childish name calling and build an infrastructure that our grandkids will be proud to maintain.

-Joe

 

[Bern80]

I'm just pointing out what utter bullshit it is for ANY OF US to suggest that we are "self made men", Bern.

It is so preposterous a statement that one would think no person of even average IQ would be foolish enough to suggest it,

Now what they mean is that they worked very hard using what fate gave them and that they are entitled to not have it stolen from them by a repressive government.

Nobody, would disagree.

But I do truly get sick of this ALTAS MYTH that kids all tend to grow into when they first get out of the house and start making their own money for a change,

And when that childiosh conceit becomes the tool that the NEO-CONS have used to convince thse idiots that rule by government is inherently a bad thing?

Well them I just have to interject with some reality,

We ALL stand on the shoulders of the generations which came before us.

No human being is a self made man, and thinking you are is no excuse for selfishness.

Yes we DO owe a debt to the society which made it possible for us to do well.

Your argument is a bit flimsy. It's kind of like saying you wouldn't be able to become rich if there wasn't air. If what you say is true and the previous generations are predominantly responsible for the success of the current generation then far, far more peopel should be rich if all they are doing is 'standing on their shoulders'. The fact is regardless of the resources put in place by the previous generation it can't be made into anything without the motivation and effort of the individual. At the end of the day that is what it comes down to as evidenced by the fact that most people who sit on their ass aren't going to become rich. Your argument is simply an excuse so that you can tell yourself the reason you're not rich isn't because of a lack of effort on your part, but rather an aligning of the stars I guess.

 

[glockmail]

Can anyone explain to me why someone would be hoping for socialism? I can't figure it out.

Because they are America-hating socialists?

 

[Bern80]

Because they are America-hating socialists?

I suppose the real answer would be that it is a garunteed set standard of living for everyone, where you are not dependant on yourself for it. If one would be satisified with mediocre I'm sure it sounds quite appealing.

 

[MalibuMan]

There hasn't been enough of a breakdown that Americans will trust the government to run their lives. And there probably never will be.

To bad a lot of Americans are willing to have the government pay for it though.

To many people want shit for nothing.

Hand out hand out hand outs

 

[elvis]

Because they are America-hating socialists?

well, he defended rev. wright's GD america statement on the grounds of the three strike law being so horrible.....
Isn't california the only state that has that law?

kids

 

[Bern80]

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105934/10-Reasons-You're-Not-Rich

This was an interesting article on Yahoo!. Interesting of course because it echoes EXACTLEY what I've been trying to get across. You're not poor because the man is keeping you down.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I'm just pointing out what utter bullshit it is for ANY OF US to suggest that we are "self made men", Bern.

It is so preposterous a statement that one would think no person of even average IQ would be foolish enough to suggest it,

Now what they mean is that they worked very hard using what fate gave them and that they are entitled to not have it stolen from them by a repressive government.

Nobody, would disagree.

But I do truly get sick of this ALTAS MYTH that kids all tend to grow into when they first get out of the house and start making their own money for a change,

And when that childiosh conceit becomes the tool that the NEO-CONS have used to convince thse idiots that rule by government is inherently a bad thing?

Well them I just have to interject with some reality,

We ALL stand on the shoulders of the generations which came before us.

No human being is a self made man, and thinking you are is no excuse for selfishness.

Yes we DO owe a debt to the society which made it possible for us to do well.

We are not born with any skills at all. We have basic intelligence and motor skills, but we posses NO marketable skills at all. We have to OBTAIN those. Most choose to NOT obtain highly marketable skills for whatever reason. Some of us did. No one GAVE those to us, we OBTAINED them for ourselves. We are SELF-MADE. Period.

 

[Zoomie1980]

O.k. - How about the public roads you use to make your living? How about the public standards for food safety that keep you from being poisoned by an unscrupulous vendor? How about the nice sleep you enjoy every night, knowing that the public military is on the job keeping you safe? How about the public parks that you enjoy occasionally? How about the public standards in building safety so you can go to work and to play with out that worry?

Shall I go on?

There is a place in America for public involvement in the marketplace.

Conservative or Liberal, we all depend on the rest of us for some things... Enforceable standards, if nothing else.

Most liberals will quickly admit to the value of free markets... Now, if the conservatives will just admit to the value of public involvement, we might be able to move beyond the childish name calling and build an infrastructure that our grandkids will be proud to maintain.

-Joe

There's no problem with basic standards and maintaining a functioning infrastructure. National defense is essential. Those are valid pursuits of government. But that has NOTHING to do with the point of making yourself marketable. I owe NOTHING to ANYONE who CHOSE to NOT obtain them.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I'm just pointing out what utter bullshit it is for ANY OF US to suggest that we are "self made men", Bern.

It is so preposterous a statement that one would think no person of even average IQ would be foolish enough to suggest it,

Now what they mean is that they worked very hard using what fate gave them and that they are entitled to not have it stolen from them by a repressive government.

Nobody, would disagree.

But I do truly get sick of this ALTAS MYTH that kids all tend to grow into when they first get out of the house and start making their own money for a change,

And when that childiosh conceit becomes the tool that the NEO-CONS have used to convince thse idiots that rule by government is inherently a bad thing?

Well them I just have to interject with some reality,

We ALL stand on the shoulders of the generations which came before us.

No human being is a self made man, and thinking you are is no excuse for selfishness.

Yes we DO owe a debt to the society which made it possible for us to do well.

Depends on what you mean by "debt". Gratitude, sure, we owe a lot in particular to the armed forces over the past century. But I do NOT owe ANYTHING to anyone living today for any reason other than for the things I purchase and the services provided DIRECTLY to ME from governmental agencies (my streets, soldiers in the field, etc...) I damned sure as HELL do NOT owe money to pay for some loser who made bad choices in their life.

 

[AVG-JOE]

There's no problem with basic standards and maintaining a functioning infrastructure. National defense is essential. Those are valid pursuits of government. But that has NOTHING to do with the point of making yourself marketable. I owe NOTHING to ANYONE who CHOSE to NOT obtain them.

Are you willing to help pay for the military, infrastructure and standards enforcement? Should participation in paying for these items be voluntary?

It is an extreme viewpoint that lashes out against all government and all taxes... Just like it is an extreme viewpoint that anyone has a 'right' to food and shelter.

Once the name calling subsides and both the extreme left and the extreme right realize that they are only partially correct, the work of figuring out and compromising on how much government is a good idea and how to pay for it can begin.

-Joe

 

[Zoomie1980]

Are you willing to help pay for the military, infrastructure and standards enforcement? Should participation in paying for these items be voluntary?

It is an extreme viewpoint that lashes out against all government and all taxes... Just like it is an extreme viewpoint that anyone has a 'right' to food and shelter.

Once the name calling subsides and both the extreme left and the extreme right realize that they are only partially correct, the work of figuring out and compromising on how much government is a good idea and how to pay for it can begin.

-Joe

If it is a viable governmental pursuit then that is what taxes are for. I'm more than fine with paying taxes for BASIC and LIMITED government function, national defense, passable infrastructure, law enforcement, and national standards. But nothing else, including ALL social programs, and entitlements. None of those are viable purposes of government.