Will the World Like the US Better Under Obama?

[LordBrownTrout]

You have a point here, I assume?

There's a difference between isolationism and putting all "world opinion" based on others' self interrests ahead of our own.

Why SHOULD we just give shit away free and ask nothing in return when those goods and money could be better put to use within our own borders?

The "rest of the world" has all the answers so let the "rest of the world" carry its weak and selectively support democracy.

We can't even guard our own damned fence.

You just made it for me, gunny. Couldnt verbalize it. You first point about giving and not receive was an argument I had years back when Clinton signed the most favored nation deal with China. I knew we were in for some repercussion, bad ones, like an upside down trade deficit, when the ink hit the bill. Hell yeah, money could be put to better use within our own borders. Id rather all of our capitalist needs, supply and demand stay here also. I wouldn't mind trade with other countries as long as the trade exchange was even. Im tellin ya I still get pissed when I see what's going on between our uneven trade relationship with India and China.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Allende was democratically elected. What he did after that is up to the Chilean people to sort out, not the US. None of your business. I mean, Pinochet was just soooo much better. Again, that attitude is why people don't like you. You justify your interferring with other countries under the guise of helping out. How benevolent of you...And who says the KGB was helping him - is that the excuse you use to justify your interference? You believe neocon propaganda. Bit like Iraq - do the deed then make up excuses and reasons after the fact. Always the right-wingers who do that shit...when was Allende again?? Oh, that's right, during the Nixon admin - what party was he with again??

There are 4 million NZs and 300 million Americans. Who gave more per head of population? Need a calculator Cletus? You being a typical ego-centric American who thinks they are the only ones who send aid and solve all the world's ills?

As I said in the outset, just because the US does good, doesn't mean you get a free pass when you fuck up. Giving with one hand, doesn't give you the right to take with the other you bible-thumping, self-rightious loser.

Riiight, Democracy is when you elect someone to seize peoples' private property for the State. And during the friggin Cold War we wanted more Commies getting a foothold in the Americas…. not to mention have some despot Marxist take over American business interests within Chile. So what if Allende was democratically elected? He acted UNdemocratically and UNconstitutionally. And don't forget who helped Allende get elected in 1970….Castro and the Soviet Union.

Without US aid I doubt the tsunami job would have been done….and those people in the far reaches that we had to fly supplies into with our military choppers would be dead today if they had to wait for you…..so take your "per capita" bullshit and stuff it.

Obviously the US doesn't get a "free pass" from you, Mr. Grump…over 35 years later you are still griping about your precious communist Allende…I'll bet you like Castro and Chavez too. Ever wonder what Chile would be like today if Allende had gotten his way? Probably another sewer like Cuba. You calling me self-righteous and bible-thumping only heightens my suspicion you are probably a red card-carrying communist….or just another useful idiot...

 

[Dr Grump]

Feel free to get to get your own economy that ISN'T dependent on what the US does.

Are you really that naive? Seriously?

 

[Dr Grump]

Riiight, Democracy is when you elect someone to seize peoples' private property for the State. And during the friggin Cold War we wanted more Commies getting a foothold in the Americas…. not to mention have some despot Marxist take over American business interests within Chile. So what if Allende was democratically elected? He acted UNdemocratically and UNconstitutionally. And don't forget who helped Allende get elected in 1970….Castro and the Soviet Union.

Without US aid I doubt the tsunami job would have been done….and those people in the far reaches that we had to fly supplies into with our military choppers would be dead today if they had to wait for you…..so take your "per capita" bullshit and stuff it.

Obviously the US doesn't get a "free pass" from you, Mr. Grump…over 35 years later you are still griping about your precious communist Allende…I'll bet you like Castro and Chavez too. Ever wonder what Chile would be like today if Allende had gotten his way? Probably another sewer like Cuba. You calling me self-righteous and bible-thumping only heightens my suspicion you are probably a red card-carrying communist….or just another useful idiot...

Know your history before you start spouting off. You know nothing about Allende, that much is evident. As for Cuba, they are like they are no thanks to your sanctions. In saying that, a lot of people like the place, go figure. Agian, Chavez is loved by the 99% of the population that make up the poor in Venezuela. Is he my kinda guy? No, but neither is Bush...both as bad as each other but at different ends of the political spectrum.

You can tell me to stick my per capita all you like, but at the end of the day, I gave more to victims of the tsunami via my govt, than you did yours. Thems the facts Tightwad...

I don't mind if you wnat to help out Chile, but please don't preach to me how you are the beacon of democracy and the best place in the world. If you believe in invading or undermining other countries, then obviously you don't even know the meaning of the world freedom.

I am not a communist by any measure, but you are a bible-thumping right-wing religious zealot who would have been happy to live in the McCarthy era. At least own up for what you are...a despotic whiner...

 

[Dr Grump]

You have a point here, I assume?

There's a difference between isolationism and putting all "world opinion" based on others' self interrests ahead of our own.

Why SHOULD we just give shit away free and ask nothing in return when those goods and money could be better put to use within our own borders?

The "rest of the world" has all the answers so let the "rest of the world" carry its weak and selectively support democracy.

We can't even guard our own damned fence.

You make a fair point, but all that is happening at an international level is capitalism. I thought you folk loved it - until it starts undermining your economy, right?

What you guys - and most western countries do have - over the Indians and Chinese is quality. I reckon exporters should push that. I'm got sick of buying Chinese-made shit and it breaking. I read labels real careful now. Rarely buy Chinese unless it is via a European/Oz/US/Japanese parent company, who do generally have some sort of quality control..

 

[editec]

I don't know (or much care) about the rest of the world, but I know damned well I WILL.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Know your history before you start spouting off. You know nothing about Allende, that much is evident. As for Cuba, they are like they are no thanks to your sanctions. In saying that, a lot of people like the place, go figure. Agian, Chavez is loved by the 99% of the population that make up the poor in Venezuela. Is he my kinda guy? No, but neither is Bush...both as bad as each other but at different ends of the political spectrum.

Oh, I "know nothing" about Allende? I suppose Nixon knew nothing either. Well, Mr. History Know-it-all please state the facts that show Allende was not a communist ripping off lands and businesses. Prove that the US had no business there. Prove that the US unseated Allende arbitrarily all by its lonely self. Prove that the Soviet Union wasn't involved there.

You claim that Cuba is the way they are because of the US? All OUR fault? What a crock. I suppose you think Cuba had nothing to do with the fact that the Soviet Union brought in threatening missiles 70 miles from our shores during the Cold War? And Castro had nothing to do with the killing of Cuban people, human rights violations, the grab of control of Cuba's farms and businesses, or the suppression of free speech, etc.? Cubans risked their lives on inner tubes escaping to Florida just for the hell of it? Silly us, we put Cuba on unfavored nation status just for kicks...you think poor widdle Cuba was just an innocent little dictatorship sitting there, doing nada….and Big Bad America just shit on them for no good reason....you really are indoctrinated, aren't you?

I figured Chavez would be one of your socialist heroes….another Castro kind-of-guy. The poor in Venezuela used to think Chavez was real cool….while he promised them all sorts of goodies... being the typical socialist that he is….but now that he can't deliver on all those goodies...things aren't as rosy...which happens over and over under socialist regimes….you'd think people would learn from history…..but obviously even big history buffs like you can't seem to put two and two together.

You can tell me to stick my per capita all you like, but at the end of the day, I gave more to victims of the tsunami via my govt, than you did yours. Thems the facts Tightwad...

Like I said ingrate, next time don't come calling to the USA for help….

I don't mind if you wnat to help out Chile, but please don't preach to me how you are the beacon of democracy and the best place in the world. If you believe in invading or undermining other countries, then obviously you don't even know the meaning of the world freedom.

On one hand you leftists think we interfere too much and on the other hand you think we don't do enough….I wish you idiots could make up your minds….but you won't….because you lefties prefer to demean and destroy USA democracy any which way you can….

I am not a communist by any measure, but you are a bible-thumping right-wing religious zealot who would have been happy to live in the McCarthy era. At least own up for what you are...a despotic whiner...

You have all the earmarks of a commie sympathizer and a sucking socialist….something us conservative Americans despise. You probably don't believe in God….but just because I do….you lefties figure that's a good reason to insult someone….for some idiot reason you think that carries political weight here in America...and if anybody's the whiner here…you fit the bill to a tee.

 

[Gunny]

You make a fair point, but all that is happening at an international level is capitalism. I thought you folk loved it - until it starts undermining your economy, right?

What you guys - and most western countries do have - over the Indians and Chinese is quality. I reckon exporters should push that. I'm got sick of buying Chinese-made shit and it breaking. I read labels real careful now. Rarely buy Chinese unless it is via a European/Oz/US/Japanese parent company, who do generally have some sort of quality control..

I have no problem with capitalism and never have. I do however have and always have had a problem with ruthless capitalism unchecked when it is to the detriment of this Nation and its people.

Just as I can say I have no problem with some socialist programs where they are necessary, but I DO have a problem with unchecked socialism.

 

[BrianH]

I have no problem with capitalism and never have. I do however have and always have had a problem with ruthless capitalism unchecked when it is to the detriment of this Nation and its people.

Just as I can say I have no problem with some socialist programs where they are necessary, but I DO have a problem with unchecked socialism.

Anything unchecked has potential problems. I agree 100%. Capitalism is great, but unchecked and abused capitalism can run a country into the ground.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Anything unchecked has potential problems. I agree 100%. Capitalism is great, but unchecked and abused capitalism can run a country into the ground.

What do-gooder socialists don't understand…..

With free capitalism in a democratic country you may have some companies that abuse workers or the environment or whatever. Abuse problems however can be checked through the use of unions, the media, or the courts.

With socialism you have the government in control and in bed with big business…typically including the media as well….so who do you run to for redress when the formerly "caring" Big Brother government doesn't care anymore? There's nowhere to turn…

 

[Manuel]

Oh, and next time there's another major earthquake/tsunami in your neck of the world, how 'bout you New Zealanders take care of it all by yourselves? That way we won't be "interfering"…

That is how the system works. We will also get support from other countries if we are in need.

NZ spent a whole usd 7.2 million for tsunami aid…..how 'bout next time we just KEEP the usd 350 million that WE spent? And that's NOT counting the usage of our military equipment, troops, and disaster supplies…plus millions more from donations from non-governmental private organizations….from all of us so-called "uncaring" Americans

How should a country with a little more than 4 million inhabitants manage to send the same amount of money or troops?

 

[Gunny]

What do-gooder socialists don't understand…..

With free capitalism in a democratic country you may have some companies that abuse workers or the environment or whatever. Abuse problems however can be checked through the use of unions, the media, or the courts.

With socialism you have the government in control and in bed with big business…typically including the media as well….so who do you run to for redress when the formerly "caring" Big Brother government doesn't care anymore? There's nowhere to turn…

No one's promoting pure socialism and no one's knocking capitalism. Take a few deep breaths. It'll be okay ... really.

What we're saying is there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I don't think oil companies should be allowed to do more than their fair share to drive our economy into the ground. Anyone that was barely making it 6 months ago is no longer making it. The amount of people dipping into their 401ks has doubled.

That doesn't represent a problem to you?

Likewise, saying that I believe we as a society owe it to our indigent to at least provide them a basic level of existence rather than leave them in the streets to rot is hardly going to get me the Marx Engels Award.

 

[BrianH]

No one's promoting pure socialism and no one's knocking capitalism. Take a few deep breaths. It'll be okay ... really.

What we're saying is there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I don't think oil companies should be allowed to do more than their fair share to drive our economy into the ground. Anyone that was barely making it 6 months ago is no longer making it. The amount of people dipping into their 401ks has doubled.

That doesn't represent a problem to you?

Likewise, saying that I believe we as a society owe it to our indigent to at least provide them a basic level of existence rather than leave them in the streets to rot is hardly going to get me the Marx Engels Award.

That's exactly right. My wife and I are two professional working individuals and are barely scraping by. Everything is so expensive now it makes it difficult to save money and live comfortably. Oil prices are still increasing, causing everything else to increase. People are abusing Capitalism much like they are the Bill of Rights...especially the 1st Amend....

 

[ScreamingEagle]

That is how the system works. We will also get support from other countries if we are in need.

Oh? There's a "system"? Of which "system" do you speak?

If you are speaking of the goodwill of men that is one thing. But when our country gets attacked for not giving "enough" that is another thing. First of all, there are no rules...we are not obligated to give in the first place….and second, coughing up about a billion dollars was a whole lot of giving and probably more than all the others put together....and third, America gives more than any other country in the world. As a proud member of such a generous country I am highly insulted by some weany zeelander who calls us tightwads.

How should a country with a little more than 4 million inhabitants manage to send the same amount of money or troops?

That was my point. Those people would have died if not for our help….but weany zee still thinks we are the BAD guys...spoken like a hateful, anti-American, socialist bent on demeaning and destroying a country they envy and hate.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

No one's promoting pure socialism and no one's knocking capitalism. Take a few deep breaths. It'll be okay ... really.

What we're saying is there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I don't think oil companies should be allowed to do more than their fair share to drive our economy into the ground. Anyone that was barely making it 6 months ago is no longer making it. The amount of people dipping into their 401ks has doubled.

That doesn't represent a problem to you?

Likewise, saying that I believe we as a society owe it to our indigent to at least provide them a basic level of existence rather than leave them in the streets to rot is hardly going to get me the Marx Engels Award.

Problems with world oil costs is no excuse to turn our country into a Socialist state. That's just falling right into the planned trap of socialists and their greenie environmental cohorts. Increasing oil costs are not being caused by American oil companies. If you are going to blame anyone blame the greenies. They're the ones who have fouled up all attempts to produce our own oil. Stealing profits is not the answer. Who do you really think owns the gas companies anyway? Stealing oil company profits is the same thing as stealing from the pockets of millions of American investors. Now that oil companies are making a whole 8% profit margin the government figures it's somehow their "right" to step in and swipe the profits? And 8% is considered obscene capitalism? Yarn me another one.

And what is the government going to do with those swiped profits? Do you see any of that money filtering down to you, the consumer? Of course not. Hey, if the politicians care so much about the financial hardships associated with the high price of gas, instead of soaking the oil companies for their pet projects, why don't they instead propose something that would immediately and directly HELP people…..like remove all the taxes associated with gasoline? That would immediately knock off about 40 cents per gallon…a good start in my book. The next thing Congress needs to do to do is immediately remove the obstacles to increasing the oil supply in our country. How about some REAL leadership for once? Soaking the oil companies and leading us another step toward Socialism is NOT the answer.

 

[editec]

Soaking the oil companies and leading us another step toward Socialism is NOT the answer.

Why has the price of petroleum risen so quickly?

Surely the answer cannot be found in a simple supply/demand equation.

The demand for petroleum hasn't risen by 60% in the last two years. Neither has the supply fallen by 60%.

In May 2006 the price of oil was about $80 a barrel (in 2008 dollars)

Now it's what... about $130 (in 2008 dollars) or so, right?

Why?

Until we can answer that question, finding a solution to the problem is going to rather difficult, isn't it?

Oil companies do NOT control the price of oil...not anymore. If that is your point Screaming Eagle, then I quite agree with you when you suggest that punishing the oil companies will not solve this problem. They seem to have very little to do with pricing petroleum since they control so very few wells.

Most of the world's oil is controlled by foreign governments, not by the oil companies that buy their oil,

OTOH, the oil companies ARE making a tremendous windfall from this situation, so you can perhaps understand why some Americans are calling for their heads.

At any rate, do you have a solution, Screaming E?

Given that the rising prices have nothing to do with a decrease in supply OR an increase in demand, I mean.

FWIW, We do not live in a capitalist society. Neither do we live in a socialist society.

We live in a mixed economic system where elements of capitalism and socialism effect our world.

So to complain that socialism is going to hurt us, when the oil companies do so very well because of the socialist/capitalist economy is sort of ignoring the reality of what we are dealing with, don't you think?

 

[Ravi]

What do-gooder socialists don't understand…..

With free capitalism in a democratic country you may have some companies that abuse workers or the environment or whatever. Abuse problems however can be checked through the use of unions, the media, or the courts.

With socialism you have the government in control and in bed with big business…typically including the media as well….so who do you run to for redress when the formerly "caring" Big Brother government doesn't care anymore? There's nowhere to turn…

The government makes all kind of laws that prevent me from abusing people or the environment. It certainly isn't unfair to hold companies to the same standards as individuals.

 

[editec]

Power corrupts.

Doesn't appear to matter if the power comes in the form of capitalism unchecked, or in the form of government unchecked, those with power inevitably become corrupted by the power they wield.

We saw, thanks to the Soviet experiement how deadly and ineffective corrupted socialism is to the commonweal.


Likewise we saw, thanks to our own history from about 1850 through 1930, how deadly unbridled capitalism is to the commonweal.

Both extremes failed.

I don't blame the problem on either political or economic system, frankly.

I think the Christians describe the root source of the problem rather succinctly with the term ORIGINAL SIN.

Face it folks, we're basically bad monkeys.

 

[jillian]

Original sin? lol...

How about power unchecked benefits only those with the power and hurts those without it? I think that's far more accurate.

Original sin??? Absurd. I feel so bad for people who really believe that.

 

[Annie]

Considering the behavior of business and the behavior of Government, I'll choose to allowing businesses to rise or fall, rather than turning it all over to the government, which actually can have the power to control all.

With few exceptions there's competition within business sectors, there is no alternative to government.