Will the Rich be Lost in Hell ?

[k2skier]

If money is the root of all evil; why do church's beg for it?

 

[HUGGY]

..or be at home in Hell ?

It is very easy to avoid an uncomfortable truth. However, for those unafraid to ask difficult questions of themselves, read on.

Who is rich? If one defines being ‘rich’ as having an unequal balance of wealth and also that in God’s all seeing eyes comparisons work not only on a local, and national level but also on an international footing, then the parameters of judgement are wide indeed for inhabitants of the 1st World.

Those who are held up as the greatest of figures under the auspices of the Capitalist system. Those captains of industries, the millionaire presidents and financiers; iconic media moguls and the brightest stars of entertainment royalty, are according to the Christian doctrine, esteemed least in the eyes of God:

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

"A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."
Proverbs 11:1

Are you for real? You goofy christians never cease to amaze. The only "hell" is sharing air with you stupid fucks.

Feel free to sever your air supply at any time.

Sorry..I didn't personaly invite you to go fuck yourself and your evil and filthy fantasy religion.

 

[Quatermass]

Evangelical...

Quite simply Christ does ask for those who follow him to attain the level of perfection he has laid out by example. In the case of the rich man this involved relinquishment of his inequality of wealth. That he failed to do this is what prompted the analogy with the camel and needle.

The meaning and significance of these things are all perfectly straight forward without the need to infer any fandangled caveats or alternative explanation.

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect”
Matthew 5:48

 

[Quatermass]

Cecilie1200...

Not only does the mere possession of an inequality of wealth beget sin, both through the defence of that iniquity, and the maintenance of artificial structures to maintain the resultant class riddled society, but it ’denotes’ a certain greed within the character of the individual who possesses the riches.

I notice how keen you are to defend the notion that the rich are overflowing with all the best attributes of Christian rectitude, whereas those who are poor represent the real evil, and should be castigated for not cheering enthusiastically enough from the sidelines at how fortunate their exploiters have been. And for not being grateful enough that the entrepreneurs on high have been diligently "helping those less fortunate in character, by teaching hard work, thrift, and responsibility."

Isn’t it a fact, you have taken the purity of Christ’s sentiment and twisted it to an inverse conclusion?
While Christ says ‘the rich are lost in Hell‘, Cecilie1200 says the rich are virtuous examples of humanitarianism and philanthropy
While Christ says “Blessed are the Poor”, Cecilie1200 says the poor are "less fortunate in character"

Its quite clear from your muddled and perverse contribution Cecilie1200 that it is not Christianity which is the driving factor in your position but the defence of the profit system, and all that comes with it.

Ironically you are the very sort who has most to gain from the scripture on this issue, and also, as your post displays, the most likely to be threatened by it.

I repeat:

It is quite necessary that such scripture and sentiments attributable directly to Jesus of Nazareth be omitted, or explained away in contemporary sermon, for they are so incongruous and upsetting to the status quo of religious establishment to represent a direct threat

 

[Cecilie1200]

If money is the root of all evil; why do church's beg for it?

That's a misquote. No one ever said money was the root of all evil. The correct quote is "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil." In other words, it's back to what I've been saying: putting money and material goods ahead of God is the problem, not the money and material goods themselves.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Cecilie1200...

Not only does the mere possession of an inequality of wealth beget sin, both through the defence of that iniquity, and the maintenance of artificial structures to maintain the resultant class riddled society, but it ’denotes’ a certain greed within the character of the individual who possesses the riches.

Prove it. The only greed I see here is evidenced by YOUR sinful envy of those with more money than you. You want to make generalized assertions about "the mere possession of an inequality of wealth begets sin", I want to see some hard evidence, because I'm sure not taking YOUR word for it, nor am I going to argue on premise that your assertion is true.

I notice how keen you are to defend the notion that the rich are overflowing with all the best attributes of Christian rectitude, whereas those who are poor represent the real evil, and should be castigated for not cheering enthusiastically enough from the sidelines at how fortunate their exploiters have been.

I not only did not defend any such notion, I never even SUGGESTED such a notion, so I will thank you very much not to pull statements like that out of thin air and then try to attribute them to me and make me responsible for them. It's your straw man, YOU deal with it.

What I said, and stand by, is that some people are good and some people aren't. This is as true of rich people as it is of any other socioeconomic group. It's not the money that makes them one or the other. It's their character and their choices.

What you should be and are being castigated for is trying to make some high and mighty, lofty spiritual position out of your greed, envy, and covetousness toward your neighbors.

And for not being grateful enough that the entrepreneurs on high have been diligently "helping those less fortunate in character, by teaching hard work, thrift, and responsibility."

You don't appreciate the help that entrepreneurs give you? Quit your job. And don't even consider applying for any government assistance or asking for help from any charities, because those damned selfish rich people are the ones all of that came from. So yeah, you ought to be DAMNED grateful that there are people in society who had more gumption and drive than you apparently have and actually got out and produced a business that could employ your sorry ass, other businesses that could power the economy that allows your employer to stay in business and keep paying you, and pay taxes and donate charitably to take care of you when your oppressive and all-pervasive self-pity overwhelms you and you become the raving homeless person you seem destined to be.

You're welcome.

Isn’t it a fact, you have taken the purity of Christ’s sentiment and twisted it to an inverse conclusion?

That's actually a very concise statement of what you did.

While Christ says ‘the rich are lost in Hell‘, Cecilie1200 says the rich are virtuous examples of humanitarianism and philanthropy
While Christ says “Blessed are the Poor”, Cecilie1200 says the poor are "less fortunate in character"

Once again, you attempt to put words in my mouth, and quite frankly, your words aren't worthy of the honor. So how about you stick to coming up with your own statements, and let me come up with mine?

Meanwhile, on the subject of "virtuous examples of humanitarianism and philanthropy", how about YOUR display of liver-eating hatred and envy toward anyone who isn't such a broke, sad-sack loser as you and dares to work and enjoy the fruits of their labor? Do you really think your vitriol and demands that others be destitute and living hand-to-mouth to suit your twisted interpretations is really Christlike?

Its quite clear from your muddled and perverse contribution Cecilie1200 that it is not Christianity which is the driving factor in your position but the defence of the profit system, and all that comes with it.

Fortunately, bitter, petty little envy-monkeys like you are not the arbiters of what is and isn't Christian, especially since you yourself just committed a sin by daring to judge MY Christianity or lack thereof. Who died and made you God?

Ironically you are the very sort who has most to gain from the scripture on this issue, and also, as your post displays, the most likely to be threatened by it.

Pride is the most insidious of all sins. You should look to that.

I repeat:

It is quite necessary that such scripture and sentiments attributable directly to Jesus of Nazareth be omitted, or explained away in contemporary sermon, for they are so incongruous and upsetting to the status quo of religious establishment to represent a direct threat

Thank you, but your hatred-warped viewpoints weren't worth reading the first time, so they certainly didn't merit a repeat.

You are as you were before: accusing others of your own sin. Sometimes, the person who is most guilty of idolizing wealth and material goods is the person who doesn't have them, and allows that obsession and worship to lead him into the sin of hating his fellow man and wishing them ill for having what he does not.

I pity you. You're dismissed.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Cecilie1200...

Not only does the mere possession of an inequality of wealth beget sin, both through the defence of that iniquity, and the maintenance of artificial structures to maintain the resultant class riddled society, but it ’denotes’ a certain greed within the character of the individual who possesses the riches.

I notice how keen you are to defend the notion that the rich are overflowing with all the best attributes of Christian rectitude, whereas those who are poor represent the real evil, and should be castigated for not cheering enthusiastically enough from the sidelines at how fortunate their exploiters have been. And for not being grateful enough that the entrepreneurs on high have been diligently "helping those less fortunate in character, by teaching hard work, thrift, and responsibility."

Isn’t it a fact, you have taken the purity of Christ’s sentiment and twisted it to an inverse conclusion?
While Christ says ‘the rich are lost in Hell‘, Cecilie1200 says the rich are virtuous examples of humanitarianism and philanthropy
While Christ says “Blessed are the Poor”, Cecilie1200 says the poor are "less fortunate in character"

Its quite clear from your muddled and perverse contribution Cecilie1200 that it is not Christianity which is the driving factor in your position but the defence of the profit system, and all that comes with it.

Ironically you are the very sort who has most to gain from the scripture on this issue, and also, as your post displays, the most likely to be threatened by it.

I repeat:

It is quite necessary that such scripture and sentiments attributable directly to Jesus of Nazareth be omitted, or explained away in contemporary sermon, for they are so incongruous and upsetting to the status quo of religious establishment to represent a direct threat

So we can assume you have no job and are homeless. You using the public Library to post?

 

[ItsFairmont]

Rich is a relative term.

Also, as a Christian, I am aware that the word Hell is Greek for death. The Book of Revelations talks of a physical hell, but nobody knows for sure how literal or symbolic that book is. It's the most imaginative book in the Bible, for sure, and is quite frightening, even to a Christian.


But hell, to me, means death--cut off from God. I think eternal life comes from those who are Saved by Jesus Christ. I think the rest just die, forever cutoff from God, but I don't think they are tormented eternally in a lake of fire.

 

[Dis]

If money is the root of all evil; why do church's beg for it?

That's a misquote. No one ever said money was the root of all evil. The correct quote is "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil." In other words, it's back to what I've been saying: putting money and material goods ahead of God is the problem, not the money and material goods themselves.

God ain't paying my bills. Money is.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Rich is a relative term.

Also, as a Christian, I am aware that the word Hell is Greek for death. The Book of Revelations talks of a physical hell, but nobody knows for sure how literal or symbolic that book is. It's the most imaginative book in the Bible, for sure, and is quite frightening, even to a Christian.


But hell, to me, means death--cut off from God. I think eternal life comes from those who are Saved by Jesus Christ. I think the rest just die, forever cutoff from God, but I don't think they are tormented eternally in a lake of fire.

You may want to reread your Bible. No one gains Eternal Life until the day of Judgement. No one has Ascended to Heaven except Jesus. When you die you sleep until Judgement Day. At which point you are called forth from death and Judged. If you are not found worthy you will be put back to a permanent Death. There is no Hell save Earth while Satan Rules.

No one can talk to the dead, that is nothing more than Satan deceiving the living to confuse them about Eternal life.

 

[Quatermass]

Cecilie1200...

Obviously from the emotive rage of your post I've hit a raw nerve here. In challenging the views about money you hold so dear it seems as if I were toppling your most cherished idol.

I referred to your previous post as perverse not in order to express any anger on my part but because the tenor of your discourse is genuinely representative of a morally deviant perspective, especially if you are claiming to represent Christianity.

Your commentary also reflects a sad assumption that the working class owe their capitalist parasite a debt of gratitude for what little wealth their wages reflect from all they have laboured to produce, and all that the egotistical employer then claims he has 'created'.

Quite obviously you and the many like you are a product of very successful ideological programming. You have adopted the aspirations and concerns of the bourgeois elite without perhaps enjoying their position of privilege.

My interpretation of Christian doctrine in no way reflects the concerns of a class enemy, and so I freely reach conclusions which contradict the indoctrinated fervour you see fit to constitute for religion.

Going through your comments, firstly you make some assumptions:

Cecilie1200: " The only greed I see here is evidenced by YOUR sinful envy of those with more money than you. "

It is very foolish to form assumptions about people's financial status on the internet and particularly to attempt a personalization of an objective debate. Further, if I have presented, the Christian tenet of a virtuous poor, and the ignoble rich. How does this denote a desire on my part to become that which I have explicitly denounced? Except in your cogged delusion.

You lay some claim to be associated with Christianity yet seek proof:

Cecilie1200: "You want to make generalized assertions about "the mere possession of an inequality of wealth begets sin", I want to see some hard evidence, because I'm sure not taking YOUR word for it"

After I have decorated the screen of your P.C. with Matthew 5:16 to 24 on the very subject, you still 'seek proof'' of a basic moral precept. You. An adult person I will presume, publicly assert the need to be taught the A.B.C of decent, human, Christian values, before your virtual peers, without the slightest scintilla of dishonour or shame.

Again in subsequent paragraphs you proceed with speculatory assumption about 'aid' I am receiving from 'entrepreneurs', about how 'rich people' account for the source of 'all charity' and how I should be 'grateful' that the rich are so replete with 'gumption', enough for the 'production of business' , (something workers, or as Marx called them 'producers', know nothing about, obviously); and pay 'all the taxes' (for the idle, tax-free workers.).

Apparently according to Cecilie1200, I am bound to become 'homeless', no doubt due to my rejection of the ambition to gain an inequality of wealth. Such being the fate of those 'sad sack losers' and 'little envy monkeys' who heed the sentiments of Jesus Christ.

What a slap in the face you deliver for the underpaid, overworked, overtaxed and also generously giving working class. And incidentally, according to the Syracuse University professor Arthur Brooks, author of 'who really cares', on charitable donations, low-income people give almost 30 percent more as a share of their income than the rich to charity.

If your contributions didn't betray such a sad fanaticism about them Cecilie1200 they would indeed be comical. And I could go on parodying your irrational outburst Cecilie1200, but in the spirit of charitableness I'll instead allow you time to rest, recuperate, and perhaps regain possession of your faculties.

 

[Evangelical]

OK, First, anyone who thinks Jesus suggests economic equality is not reading the rest of the passage they are quoting.

Lazarus was a rich man, and through faith was raised from the dead. Jesus didn't say "sell all your belongings or I'll put you back in the grave".

Lazarus was raised through faith, to eternal life, and got to keep his wealth.

This argument is really over.

 

[ABikerSailor]

A quick point here........Yeshua (Jesus) said it is EASIER for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich person to enter Heaven.

He didn't say it was impossible. Just VERY difficult.

Can a rich person enter Heaven? Depends. What did you do with your life? If you were blessed with wealth in this life, which were you, a Trump or a Warren Buffet?

If you're a Trump (i.e. a greedy selfish bastard), you're going to Hell.

If you're a Buffet (i.e. a philanthropist who helps the world), you may end up in Heaven.

And........Hell as the Christians understand it is based on Greek mythology, as in Hades.

By the way, you can't stay in Hell for eternity.......people aren't eternal, they're forever. Furthermore, the Hell of Christianity was a fabrication borrowed from the Greeks, and then further expounded upon (i.e. lied about), by the Catholic church.

Why? Because the priests found that attendance at their church was increased when they spoke of the horrors of Hell. Kinda like the popularity of scary movies today.

And, what could be scarier than eternal damnation?

Only trouble is though, they got it wrong. In the Torah, it states that nobody actually stays in Hell forever. It is rather more a place where your soul is cleaned of the evil that you've done with your free will on earth. And, the only way to cleanse a soul, is to use light, i.e. fire.

Once the soul is cleansed of the evil of their deeds here on earth? They are then allowed into Heaven.

Even says so in the gnostic Gospel of Thomas. It seems Thomas was taken on a tour through Hell in a vision, and asked the angel if everyone had to stay there forever. The angel then told him that no, everyone gets let out eventually, but it's a secret, because then people would no longer seek out God and then they would end up lost forever.

Which is what some other faiths believe, that Hell is a cold place, away from the Light of God.

But, nobody stays forever.

Another reason why nobody stays in Hell forever? Because our souls are a small piece of the Light of God, that He carved off of Himself with the blade of self will. We are also told to be God's "hands and feet".

Now........would you willingly carve off a piece of yourself if you didn't have to?

Neither will God.

 

[Agnapostate]

No one has Ascended to Heaven except Jesus.

I'm curious: What do you suppose happened to Enoch and Elijah?

As to this thread, I'm obviously of the opinion that Christians are commanded to uphold certain moral principles whilst remaining in the world. Certainly, we can judge specific political and economic systems as being contrary to the spirit of Christianity. And in my opinion, the economic system of capitalism is directly contrary to the principles of Christianity. We can recall that in the Acts of the Apostles (which should properly be named the Acts of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles), the early Christian church were practitioners of libertarian communism.

The tenets of Christianity necessitate a variety of economic integrity that is present in libertarian communism, but certainly not in the political economic ideology of capitalism. The greed and dishonesty of Ananias is an element that characterizes day-to-day transactions in the capitalist system, which accounts for my identification with the liberation theology movement.