Will the demise of the jewish racial dictatorship bring lasting peace to Palestine?

[José]

The first post is just a brief description of how Israel could be peacefully dismantled and can be skipped.

The second and third posts contain the central issues.

 

[José]

It is impossible to predict exactly how the peaceful dismantlement of Israel will occur. In any case, there are two basic models that are, in no way, mutually exclusive, I mean, some mixture of these two models can very well be implemented:

First model (civil rights campaign):

Palestinians completely abandon their armed struggle and start a civil rights movement demanding to be integrated as citizens of a democratic, unitary state in Palestine. This model could possibly include the dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority in order to expose to the world the real nature of the jewish racial dictatorship, to show to the world that Israel has DE FACTO control over the entire region of Palestine.

In this model, we would witness the gradual acquisition of more and more civil rights by Palestinians in a historical process that would take several decades and eventually lead to the incorporation of all Palestinians in a single democratic state comprising the entire region.

Second model (international protectorate):

Here we would see Israel being increasingly isolated by the international community until the country accepts the establishment of an international protectorate similar to the one in Kosovo.

In this model, the international community would assume the task of creating a democratic state to replace Israel. Fundamentalist Islamic and Jewish organizations would be outlawed together with their hate propaganda, the gradual implementation of the right of return would take place, and the international community would be in charge, until the moment when jewish and arab leaders felt safe enough to run the country without the supervision of the foreign authorities.

As I said these two models are not mutually exclusive. You can have a Palestinian civil rights movement that in the end include the presence of international troops (protectorate).

 

[José]

Now we get to the central issue:

Will the establishment of a democratic state in Palestine where the fundamental reivindication of the Palestinian people (the right to live in Western Palestine) is materialized, lead to lasting peace in Palestine?

We have to be extremely careful to avoid projecting our own expectations into the future.

People who support the continued existence of the jewish racial dictatorship will "predict" that ethnic strife will continue and that a Lebanon like scenario will be created where different ethnic groups live in a tense, uneasy coexistence punctuated by civil wars. They predict that this situation will eventually lead to the mass exodus of Jews from Palestine.

People who support the establishment of a democratic state in Palestine, like me, will "predict" that peaceful coexistence will be achieved once Palestinians get what they have been asking for 60 years, the right to return and rebuild their communities in Western Palestine, pointing to hundreds of examples around the world where different ethnic groups live side by side in peace.

The truth is that all those "predictions" are not worth the saliva required to make them. It is total insanity to try and predict what the relationship of future generations of Palestinians and Jews will be like. People who aren't even born yet.

 

[José]

I think Palestinians should seize the golden opportunity to teach the world a marvelous, unforgettable lesson on forgiveness and reconciliation.

After 150 (?) years living in exile, enduring indescribable economic hardships and being brutalized by Israel's war machine the sight of Jews and Palestinians coexisting as equals in Palestine would move the entire world.

But if the peaceful dismantlement of the jewish racial dictatorship degenerates into civil war and ethnic cleansing we'll be able to say that Israel's dark legacy came back to haunt the new democratic state.

Jewish historians and intellectuals will stop for a moment and remember everything that went wrong during the creation and existence of Israel:

1 - The colonialist nature of Zionist ideology upon which Israel was founded and its disregard for the claims and aspirations of the natives of the land.

2 - The uncontrolled mass immigration of european Jews to Palestine without the consent of the majority ethnic group.

Everywhere in the world where you have uncontrolled mass immigration you end up having ethnic strife. And no one can really blame Jews for this particular event. You can't have orderly immigration when you are fleeing persecution.

3 - All the massacres and armed raids on Palestinian villages, carried out by Irgun and Hagannah during the months that preceded the creation of Israel with the purpose of scaring the whole population and make them leave Western Palestine seeking refuge in Gaza and the West Bank hills.

4 - All the 150 (?) years of exile Israel imposed on millions of Palestinians with a horrendous cost in living conditions and in human lives as the displaced population engaged in armed struggle against the racial dictatorship.

IF, AND THIS IS A BIG IF, the democratization of Palestine eventually leads to the end of the Jewish presence in Palestine, Jews all over the world will ponder on those points I made above and will certainly conclude:

"We have our fair share of blame for the fact that once again we became a countryless people.

Israel's "original sin", the dispossession of the natives, coupled with 150 years killing them like cattle to make them accept Gaza and the WB as their homeland created a resentment so deep that ended up destroying any chance of healing and reconciliation.

As the old saying goes:

Things that start wrong, end wrong."

 

[The Rabbi]

"Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Abba Eban.

When the PA got its own autonomous area almost the first thing that happened was Hamas agents taking Fatah agents out into the street and machine gunning them. To expect that people like that are suddenly going to become kumbaya-singing agents for peaceful protest is beyond wishful thinking.

How about: All Palestinians resettle in Jordan, the homeland of Palestinians anyway. They stage a rebellion against the Hashemites and take over. Syria and Lebanon invade and make Jordan a Bantustan state. The other Arab countries realize that there is more to be gained by trading with Israel than fighting Israel and all sign peace treaties.

 

[theHawk]

It is impossible to predict exactly how the peaceful dismantlement of Israel will occur. In any case, there are two basic models that are, in no way, mutually exclusive, I mean, some mixture of these two models can very well be implemented:

First model (civil rights campaign):

Palestinians completely abandon their armed struggle and start a civil rights movement demanding to be integrated as citizens of a democratic, unitary state in Palestine. This model could possibly include the dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority in order to expose to the world the real nature of the jewish racial dictatorship, to show to the world that Israel has DE FACTO control over the entire region of Palestine.

In this model, we would witness the gradual acquisition of more and more civil rights by Palestinians in a historical process that would take several decades and eventually lead to the incorporation of all Palestinians in a single democratic state comprising the entire region.

Second model (international protectorate):

Here we would see Israel being increasingly isolated by the international community until the country accepts the establishment of an international protectorate similar to the one in Kosovo.

In this model, the international community would assume the task of creating a democratic state to replace Israel. Fundamentalist Islamic and Jewish organizations would be outlawed together with their hate propaganda, the gradual implementation of the right of return would take place, and the international community would be in charge, until the moment when jewish and arab leaders felt safe enough to run the country without the supervision of the foreign authorities.

As I said these two models are not mutually exclusive. You can have a Palestinian civil rights movement that in the end include the presence of international troops (protectorate).

The "First Model" is completely implausable. Palestinians will not abandon their "armed struggle", especially since Israelis have no intention of giving them civil rights within their society...that would completely defeat the purpose of their Zionist intentions.

As for the "Second Model", Israel would never allow such an occupying force. Nor would any country want to send their own troops into that conflict.

 

[theHawk]

Now we get to the central issue:

Will the establishment of a democratic state in Palestine where the fundamental reivindication of the Palestinian people (the right to live in Western Palestine) is materialized, lead to lasting peace in Palestine?

We have to be extremely careful to avoid projecting our own expectations into the future.

People who support the continued existence of the jewish racial dictatorship will "predict" that ethnic strife will continue and that a Lebanon like scenario will be created where different ethnic groups live in a tense, uneasy coexistence punctuated by civil wars. They predict that this situation will eventually lead to the mass exodus of Jews from Palestine.

People who support the establishment of a democratic state in Palestine, like me, will "predict" that peaceful coexistence will be achieved once Palestinians get what they have been asking for 60 years, the right to return and rebuild their communities in Western Palestine, pointing to hundreds of examples around the world where different ethnic groups live side by side in peace.

The truth is that all those "predictions" are not worth the saliva required to make them. It is total insanity to try and predict what the relationship of future generations of Palestinians and Jews will be like. People who aren't even born yet.

I find it quite strange you're against the Israeli State which is of course primarily of Jewish culture & heritage, yet advocate a Palestinan state which no doubt would be exlusively of Arab/Muslim culture. If you are all for races and cultures being able to preserve their own culture and heritage, what is wrong with Jews continuing their Zionist ambitions?

 

[theHawk]

IF, AND THIS IS A BIG IF, the democratization of Palestine eventually leads to the end of the Jewish presence in Palestine, Jews all over the world will ponder on those points I made above and will certainly conclude:

"We have our fair share of blame for the fact that once again we became a countryless people.

Israel's "original sin", the dispossession of the natives, coupled with 150 years killing them like cattle to make them accept Gaza and the WB as their homeland created a resentment so deep that ended up destroying any chance of healing and reconciliation.

As the old saying goes:

Things that start wrong, end wrong."

Israel is hardly the first nation in this world to aquire its land from an other people. The bottom line is there are two different cultures/peoples that are willing to fight and die for that land. So long as there is always a desire to control the land, there will always be conflict. "Peace" will only come when one side is broken of their will to continue their political agenda of controlling the land. As far as I am concerned it is not our war and we (as Americans) have no business telling either side what to do. If the Zionists wish to continue their pipe dream of living side by side with those savage Muslims then thats their choice, and its a waste of time trying to reason with Muslims about violence.

 

[theHawk]

How about: All Palestinians resettle in Jordan, the homeland of Palestinians anyway. They stage a rebellion against the Hashemites and take over. Syria and Lebanon invade and make Jordan a Bantustan state. The other Arab countries realize that there is more to be gained by trading with Israel than fighting Israel and all sign peace treaties.

Sounds good, but it doesn't look like Israel is willing to go to the lengths to drive the Palestinians out of the land.

 

[The Rabbi]

It is impossible to predict exactly how the peaceful dismantlement of Israel will occur. In any case, there are two basic models that are, in no way, mutually exclusive, I mean, some mixture of these two models can very well be implemented:

First model (civil rights campaign):

Palestinians completely abandon their armed struggle and start a civil rights movement demanding to be integrated as citizens of a democratic, unitary state in Palestine. This model could possibly include the dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority in order to expose to the world the real nature of the jewish racial dictatorship, to show to the world that Israel has DE FACTO control over the entire region of Palestine.

In this model, we would witness the gradual acquisition of more and more civil rights by Palestinians in a historical process that would take several decades and eventually lead to the incorporation of all Palestinians in a single democratic state comprising the entire region.

Second model (international protectorate):

Here we would see Israel being increasingly isolated by the international community until the country accepts the establishment of an international protectorate similar to the one in Kosovo.

In this model, the international community would assume the task of creating a democratic state to replace Israel. Fundamentalist Islamic and Jewish organizations would be outlawed together with their hate propaganda, the gradual implementation of the right of return would take place, and the international community would be in charge, until the moment when jewish and arab leaders felt safe enough to run the country without the supervision of the foreign authorities.

As I said these two models are not mutually exclusive. You can have a Palestinian civil rights movement that in the end include the presence of international troops (protectorate).

The "First Model" is completely implausable. Palistinians will not abandon their "armed struggle", especially since Israelis have no intention of giving them civil rights within their society...that would completely defeat the purpose of their Zionist intentions.

As for the "Second Model", Israel would never allow such an occupying force. Nor would any country want to send their own troops into that conflict.

Umm, Palestinians living in Israel HAVE civil rights.

 

[theHawk]

Umm, Palestinians living in Israel HAVE civil rights.

True, they do have "civil rights", perhaps it is more accurate to say the Israelis will never grant them any real politcial power, as the whole purpose of a Zionist state is to have a state with one predominate culture/religion/heritage.

 

[The Rabbi]

Umm, Palestinians living in Israel HAVE civil rights.

True, they do have "civil rights", perhaps it is more accurate to say the Israelis will never grant them any real politcial power, as the whole purpose of a Zionist state is to have a state with one predominate culture/religion/heritage.

Umm, Arabs living in Israel have political power. They have parties and sit in the Knesset.
If you mean the 2M+ Palesitinians living on the West Bank and Gaza, then giving them a vote would be political suicide. Why would a nation vote itself out of existence?

 

[The Rabbi]

How about: All Palestinians resettle in Jordan, the homeland of Palestinians anyway. They stage a rebellion against the Hashemites and take over. Syria and Lebanon invade and make Jordan a Bantustan state. The other Arab countries realize that there is more to be gained by trading with Israel than fighting Israel and all sign peace treaties.

Sounds good, but it doesn't look like Israel is willing to go to the lengths to drive the Palestinians out of the land.

There is a lot of support for just that in Israel. If the US pushes a bit more and they think they have nothing to lose they might just do it. It is the best of a lot of really bad alternatives.

 

[theHawk]

Umm, Palestinians living in Israel HAVE civil rights.

True, they do have "civil rights", perhaps it is more accurate to say the Israelis will never grant them any real politcial power, as the whole purpose of a Zionist state is to have a state with one predominate culture/religion/heritage.

Umm, Arabs living in Israel have political power. They have parties and sit in the Knesset.
If you mean the 2M+ Palesitinians living on the West Bank and Gaza, then giving them a vote would be political suicide.

You just proved my point.

Why would a nation vote itself out of existence?

I never said it should vote itself out of existance, or contribute to its own dismantling in any way. I have already stated we should not be telling them what to do.

 

[jillian]

You just proved my point.

Actually, why would any country give the vote to non-citizens? Israeli Arabs are entitled to all rights of citizenship, IMO. But for non-citizens? pffft... no more than Mexicans should be entitled to vote here.

 

[jillian]

I think Jose's country should be "peacefully dismantled"

 

[theHawk]

You just proved my point.

Actually, why would any country give the vote to non-citizens? Israeli Arabs are entitled to all rights of citizenship, IMO. But for non-citizens? pffft... no more than Mexicans should be entitled to vote here.

No country should. When did I ever advocate the opposite?

 

[jillian]

You just proved my point.

Actually, why would any country give the vote to non-citizens? Israeli Arabs are entitled to all rights of citizenship, IMO. But for non-citizens? pffft... no more than Mexicans should be entitled to vote here.

No country should. When did I ever advocate the opposite?

I was pretty much agreeing with you. I know it's rare.