Will Obama's 1st act shut down 1/3 of hospitals?

[WillowTree]

What??? we're not supposed to want Federal Funding of Horspitals?????? but we are supposed to want Federal Funding of our Health Care????? Do I have this understood correctly??????

 

[Ravi]

Well the main point was that (and I never knew this) we are talking about one third of all hospitals. Add to that the fact that (according to the article) they would not sell the closed hospitals for the same religious reasons they would not operate them under the new law.

Like I mentioned in the OP I don't think either is likely but both are pretty big political bombs each side can drop on the other. I don't think this issue will ever go away sad as it is.

Add to all that the multitude of promises Obama would have a hard time keeping anyway, even if the economy were not in freefall. Ugly stuff. And believe it or not, I want Obama to do well, for the good of the country.

I suppose they can't be forced to sell but what a drain on their coffers it would be to own massive, empty buildings.

It also isn't the fault of Americans that Catholics have different moral views than everyone else. Why should we, as a people, allow a religion, any religion, the freedom to ignore our laws?

 

[Tristan]

I suppose they can't be forced to sell but what a drain on their coffers it would be to own massive, empty buildings.

It also isn't the fault of Americans that Catholics have different moral views than everyone else. Why should we, as a people, allow a religion, any religion, the freedom to ignore our laws?

We absolutely should not allow anyone to ignore the law. Though, I don't see how Catholics would be in any kind of violation here. (??)

They could always sell the building for some other function or the Pope could sell a few hats. (??)

 

[Annie]

Of course losing hospitals such as Loyola would be a detrimental to wide areas of people, but I would assume the bishops would do just as they said.

Most Catholic hospitals serve the under-served neighborhoods in large cities. They were built for just that purpose, most over 75-100 years ago.

 

[Tristan]

What??? we're not supposed to want Federal Funding of Horspitals?????? but we are supposed to want Federal Funding of our Health Care????? Do I have this understood correctly??????

I think it was an honest misunderstanding or, possibly a red herring and a nerfarious plot to confuse me.

 

[WillowTree]

the point is we have a law in place that allows Catholic Churches to elect not to perform abortions.. I guess according to the article, they make up about 1/3 of the hospitals in the US.. So,,, anybody who wishes to have an abortion can choose another hospital. Right.. Aren't we liberals preaching "free choice" "pro choice" "choice" all the time??? So, we can all agree to letting everybody, even Catholics "choose" right?? Right!

 

[Tristan]

Of course losing hospitals such as Loyola would be a detrimental to wide areas of people, but I would assume the bishops would do just as they said.

Most Catholic hospitals serve the under-served neighborhoods in large cities. They were built for just that purpose, most over 75-100 years ago.

I don't know if it's normal for Salon (or that writer anyway) to be allarmist about stuff like that or not but I wonder how many hospitals would make the threat and how many would actually close? They really are in a good possition to push back though. I mean, how much more leagal does abortion need to be?

I don't mean to turn this into an "abortion" thread so if it goes that way I hope we can stick to the merits (or lack thereof) of FOCA or religious liberty or federal funding etc. (stuff that's semi "on topic")

 

[Tristan]

the point is we have a law in place that allows Catholic Churches to elect not to perform abortions.. I guess according to the article, they make up about 1/3 of the hospitals in the US.. So,,, anybody who wishes to have an abortion can choose another hospital. Right.. Aren't we liberals preaching "free choice" "pro choice" "choice" all the time??? So, we can all agree to letting everybody, even Catholics "choose" right?? Right!

One would think. Let some other provider do their own dirty work.

 

[Annie]

I don't know if it's normal for Salon (or that writer anyway) to be allarmist about stuff like that or not but I wonder how many hospitals would make the threat and how many would actually close? They really are in a good possition to push back though. I mean, how much more leagal does abortion need to be?

I don't mean to turn this into an "abortion" thread so if it goes that way I hope we can stick to the merits (or lack thereof) of FOCA or religious liberty or federal funding etc. (stuff that's semi "on topic")

If the law would require the hospitals to perform abortions, I think the bishops would close the hospitals.

Remember that thread about the priest, Catholics voting for Obama and communion? What the bishops response was regarding that priest, was that as long as the person's reason for voting for Obama was NOT to support abortion, they didn't do anything wrong, thus could receive communion. The church has always been in favor of life, regarding abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia. No one is forced to joining the church or going to its schools or hospitals.

Many of the schools and hospitals are in the poorest neighborhoods of metro areas. To close them would not be in the interests of the communities.

 

[WillowTree]

One would think. Let some other provider do their own dirty work.

no, I'm serious,, the people who favor abortion call themselves "pro choice" I'm asking if the Catholics shouldn't have a "choice".. why can't someone choose not to do abortions? Doctors certainly can,, and nurses can choose not to participate..

 

[Tristan]

If the law would require the hospitals to perform abortions, I think the bishops would close the hospitals.

Remember that thread about the priest, Catholics voting for Obama and communion? What the bishops response was regarding that priest, was that as long as the person's reason for voting for Obama was NOT to support abortion, they didn't do anything wrong, thus could receive communion. The church has always been in favor of life, regarding abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia. No one is forced to joining the church or going to its schools or hospitals.

Many of the schools and hospitals are in the poorest neighborhoods of metro areas. To close them would not be in the interests of the communities.

Oh no doubt they do good work and I would hate to see them go away. I believe there position is so strong (and Obama's agenda so full) that we will not see FOCA again soon and not again at all in it's current form.

Two real quick thoughts. One is I just want to affirm it's not just Catholics who feel this strongly about being pro-life. Two, funny enough, Catholics voted for the Democrats in 4 of the last 5 elections so it was not a huge Obama swing. IMHO Kerry lost the Catholic vote in his numbnuts campaign kinda way. Put simply, Catholics will vote for you (reluclantly) if your pro-choice, but they wont vote for you if you say "I'm one of you, oh and also I'm pro-choice".

 

[Tristan]

no, I'm serious,, the people who favor abortion call themselves "pro choice" I'm asking if the Catholics shouldn't have a "choice".. why can't someone choose not to do abortions? Doctors certainly can,, and nurses can choose not to participate..

I'm sorry. I reread your other post and this one again and I just didn't and don't follow you. (my fault)

Who "can't choose not to do abortions"??

 

[KGB]

Take a look at who starts all these abortion threads. It ain't the board liberals.



Agreed.



From most libera;'s viewpoint, the debate is not about abortion, ya' know.

It's about whether or not we're going to willingly give the government the right to tell women what they can or cannot do with their bodies.

There is no bigger problem in the world than governments thinking they have the right to tell people that the government has the right to tell people what to do with their own bodies.

If you don't own something that fundamental, then you are basically a slave.

I have asked this question for a number of years to many libs, & none have answered me yet.....so what organ does "fetus" fall under again?

 

[Annie]

Oh no doubt they do good work and I would hate to see them go away. I believe there position is so strong (and Obama's agenda so full) that we will not see FOCA again soon and not again at all in it's current form.

Two real quick thoughts. One is I just want to affirm it's not just Catholics who feel this strongly about being pro-life. Two, funny enough, Catholics voted for the Democrats in 4 of the last 5 elections so it was not a huge Obama swing. IMHO Kerry lost the Catholic vote in his numbnuts campaign kinda way. Put simply, Catholics will vote for you (reluclantly) if your pro-choice, but they wont vote for you if you say "I'm one of you, oh and also I'm pro-choice".

Perhaps. From what I've read regardless of the Church's stand on birth control, Catholics have pretty much used and self-reported the use of such since the advent of the pill. Same with premarital sex.

As for abortions for 'rape, incest, and life of the woman', same results as general population. For the most part though they tend away from abortion, the idea of the fetus as a human seems to have been sold. I personally believe this has more to do with the science aspect of life. The more that ultrasound has been perfected, the earlier we now recognize just how 'human' from very early on the fetus is.

I wonder how many non-Catholics realize that the catholic schools have taught evolution in schools for at least 60 years that I'm aware of; while explaining, in religion classes, not science, that the 'creationism story' in the bible is a 'story', that was used by people in preliterate societies to explain 'the world' to people as an oral tradition? That there are at least 3 different versions of the creation story, crossing both monotheistic and polytheistic societies?

While the church did treat Copernicus badly, it wasn't because of his theory, rather that he refused multiple requests to keep it within academia at the time, to avoid undermining the hierarchy of both church and feudal traditions? Of course the Magna Carta had already begun that slippery slope, but one does need to keep 'time and place' into account.

 

[AllieBaba]

I'd love to see Obama take on the Catholic church.

But this is great. If you object to killing babies, we will deny you health care and ban pro-life doctors. Perfect.

 

[KGB]

no Catholic hospital could be compelled to perform an abortion....

 

[Tristan]

no Catholic hospital could be compelled to perform an abortion....

I swear, the longer the thread the fewer people read the OP!

 

[KGB]

I swear, the longer the thread the fewer people read the OP!

you missed my point, separation of Church & State goes both ways....the State can regulate medical standards within a Catholic hospital, but they can not tell a Catholic hospital what procedures they may or may not perform especially one it is morally opposed to.....1st Amendment....

 

[Skeptik]

The pile of manure is your post. Try reading the article, huh? Obviously someone wants to try. Or is that too hard for you to figure out?

I bet you didn't even read it. You just went on the blind partisan hack attack. Thanks for validating a point a made in another thread about people not wanting to think ....

Aha. So, people who "want to think" will believe that Barack Obama is going to shut down 1/3 of the nation's hospitals.

I think, and I don't think so.

If you want to make a bet, then mark your calendar for one year from now.

If the Catholic hospitals are closed, then I'll send you an abject "You were right" apology for all to see.

If they aren't, then you get an "I told you so" in bright red letters.

Do we have a bet?

Oh, yes, I almost forgot:

"Hey, you monsters, get out of this closet! A little child has to sleep in this room, and is afraid of monsters! Shoo, I say, shoo, get out!"

 

[Tristan]

you missed my point, separation of Church & State goes both ways....the State can regulate medical standards within a Catholic hospital, but they can not tell a Catholic hospital what procedures they may or may not perform especially one it is morally opposed to.....1st Amendment....

Leaving aside the fact that part of "regulating medical standards" IS telling hospitals what procedures they do, FOCA threatens to take away federal funding (such as medicare and medicaid) from anyone, Catholic or otherwise, who does not comply. And taking away that funding (about 27% of the population) is pretty compelling. That's just Medicare and Medicaid, I don't even know if that goes along with government workers and their contracted health insurance providers. Heck, maybe half of us are already on government health care.

They wont force doctors to do work they are unwilling to do, they will put them out of business.