Will Democracy Succeed in the EU?

Discussion in 'Europe' started by Adam's Apple, Mar 24, 2005.

  1. Adam's Apple
    Offline

    Adam's Apple Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4,092
    Thanks Received:
    445
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +447
    The Next Democratic Revolution: The EU
    By Dick Morris for FrontPageMagazine.com
    March 24, 2005

    The undemocratic ways of the European Union are finally catching up with it as many of its member states — especially the United Kingdom and France — consult with their voters over whether to approve the new federal constitution prepared by the Brussels bureaucrats.

    Voters in France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Poland, the Czech Republic and, most notably, Britain are leaning toward rejection of the document which confers vast new powers to shape foreign policy and regulate all aspects of European life on the EU.

    Of course, Germany and a majority of the EU nations are simply skipping any consultation with their voters and ratifying the constitution in their national parliaments. When I asked one German Christian Democratic Union leader why the party does not insist on a referendum, I got the reply: “We had referenda in the ’30s, and they didn’t work out so well.”

    The entire bias of the EU is toward socialism on an economic level and government by bureaucratic fiat on an administrative and political level. It really represents a European effort to mimic the kind of bureaucratic control that Japan is struggling, unsuccessfully, to shake off.

    Government by those who think they know better is the common denominator here and the major threat to freedom in our post-fascist, post-Communist era. EU regulators have injected themselves into every bit of minutia in the economies of each of their countries, and popular frustration with their meddling is growing.

    All this would be fine if the growth of bureaucracy and government intervention were matched by a concomitant expansion of democracy, but it is not. The bureaucracy in Brussels is unchecked by any elected body. The Council of Ministers — the member-nation presidents or premiers — is too unwieldy to exercise any real influence, and the members of the European Parliament are so hamstrung by the bureaucracy that members are not even allowed to introduce legislation. They must content themselves with voting on bills proposed by the bureaucracy.

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17474
     
  2. Zhukov
    Offline

    Zhukov VIP Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,492
    Thanks Received:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Everywhere, simultaneously.
    Ratings:
    +301
    Marx would be so proud.

    It really is amazing that after waging and winning a 45 year war of blood, sweat, and nerves with Communism, the Europeans have more or less decided Communism (economic socialism and government by bureaucratic fiat by any other name....) is the way to go.

    Maybe we should have let Stalin have it all. It sure would have saved alot of time, effort, and money.

    Would we really have been any worse off without half of Germany and all of France on our side?

    I guess it was nice to have Werner, but other than that.........
     
  3. Adam's Apple
    Offline

    Adam's Apple Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4,092
    Thanks Received:
    445
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +447
    I agree with your assessment, Zhukov. MOST of the European countries, along with large majorities of their populations, are today firmly entrenched in socialism.
     
  4. padisha emperor
    Offline

    padisha emperor Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,564
    Thanks Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Aix-en-Provence, France
    Ratings:
    +53
    I believe that referendum is forbidden in the german constitution, the "Grundgesetz".
    So, the ratification of an international treaty is ther parliament way.
    They can't follow an other way.


    Wrong.

    First, there is here an confusion between 2 things :
    - the EUROPEAN COUNCIL, which NOT a communautary institution (in the Treaty of Roma modified), and which is composed by the chiefs of State and of governements (so, Pres. and premiers) of the 25 member-States.

    - the COUNCIL of the EUROPEAN UNION, it is an institution (from articles 202 to 210, Treaty of European Community). He 's called also COUNCIL OF MINISTERS, because here are the ministers (not the presidents or premiers) of the member-States, and his composition depends of the subject : if the discussion is about environnement, then would be here the 25 ministers of environnement of the States. But the most often there are the ministers of the Foreign Affairs.

    The first, the EUROPEAN COUNCIL, is an impulsion organ, he gives the push, the impulsion for the developpement of the EU.
    The second, the COUNCIL OF E.U., is a legislative organ : he was before the only legislator, but since the Treaty of Maastricht, of 1992, and the procedure of co-decision, the European Parliament is co-legislator, with the Council (when the word "Council" is mentionned alone, it is the Council ot the E.U.)
    So, the Council is a legislative organ, but also an executive organ.
    He has also an important role for the vote of the budget.
    It is a real important institution, with a real real power.

    And the European Council has a power : it is not a "real institution" of the Community, but as an impuslion organ, his decision are often followed, because it is important. So, this organ has not no power. And the Treaty of the 10/29/2004, about the European Consitution, makes of this European council one of the 5 actual institutions. So it is a consecration of the European Council's role.

    Then, the first sentence is not correct, about the role of the institution, but also about the name : there is a mistake.

    Now : second part of the message :

    They can't introduce legislation, yes, the initiative of the laws is the monopole of the European COMMISSION.
    The parliament votes the laws, with the Council. But :

    This journalist go not really deep in his investigation :

    The Parliament can vote a resolution, to ask to the Commission the introdiction of a law, so the Parliament will vote for it.
    The Council can too.
    This power of "suggestion" of the Parliament is often followed by the Commission, because :
    The Commission is responsible in front of the Parliament >> the Parliament gives the investiture of the Commission's president, and after he makes the investiture of the whole Commission. He has a strong power of investigation, of audit for the members designed by the President and the Council.
    For the Barroso's Commission, the Parliament rejected 2 members, and Barroso changed them.

    The Parliament can also vote a censure motion for the Commission, like a national parliament can do with the governement, in the parliamentary regime (France, UK....in fact everybody or not far, except USA). After that, the government, so here the Commission, is "destroyed" (you understand what I mean, a little bit like the US impeachement) It was the case for the Commission lead by Jacques SANTER, ex-Prime minister of Luxembourg : the Parliament did only the beginning of the procedure, and the Commission left. (1999)

    So, the Parliament, lke said the article, can not introduce the laws becasue only ther Commission has the initiative power, but he has a such importance for the Commission, that this one follow often his advice, his proposition....
    he is not struggled by the bureaucracy...

    That' all ! ;)
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  5. rtwngAvngr
    Offline

    rtwngAvngr Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    15,755
    Thanks Received:
    511
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +511
    Too many useless bureaucracies. See? Useless complexity that achieves nothing. Too bad the germans are forbidden from referendums. Too bad they've internalized white guilt to this extent. Is worse to kill people for being jewish than it is for being part of the bourgeiouse?
     
  6. padisha emperor
    Offline

    padisha emperor Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,564
    Thanks Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Aix-en-Provence, France
    Ratings:
    +53
    ?

    reference to the communists ?

    why ? you can't compare the EU and the communists.

    And the EU is not so complex you know.
    Not a lot more than some other political system.

    It is like a giant political system :
    -European council : as President (chief of State, like Bush or Chirac)
    -E.U. Council : high chamber of the Parliament* - Senate -
    -European Parliament : low chamber of the Parliament - like your Repres. Chamber, or the french Assemblée Nationale -
    -Commission : Governement

    in a parliamentary regime (like in France)
     
  7. Merlin1047
    Offline

    Merlin1047 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,500
    Thanks Received:
    449
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    AL
    Ratings:
    +450
    Finally! Something on which we can agree. No, the EU cannot be compared to communism. It can only be compared to the Napoleonic Empire. At least that's what it will be if our "friend" Jacques C. has his way in the matter.
     
  8. rtwngAvngr
    Offline

    rtwngAvngr Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    15,755
    Thanks Received:
    511
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +511
    Oh yeah? Watch me!

    The EU Oligarchs are like communists!
     
  9. nosarcasm
    Offline

    nosarcasm Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Messages:
    931
    Thanks Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Idaho
    Ratings:
    +68
    I have problems with the lack of true democracy in the EU now
    that it gets more and more power.

    To call them a communist, marxist or socialist tool is laughable
    because the EU is supported by big business all over Europe.

    It started as the steel coal union and it tries to make it easier
    to trade across nation state boundaries.

    It is like the US establishing legal gurantees across state lines.

    So if you are a conservative you might dislike the bureaucratic
    setup that runs the EU due to political compromise.

    But their goal is closer to American style capitalism.

    IF you look where the EU spends most of its funds it is not
    in supporting egality it is most about encouraging industrial growth (with the
    examption of the agrarian sector an national security issue)

    While I demand more democracy and want the German people
    to vote on the constitution it still is a good tool to advance
    a pro business atmosphere.
     
  10. padisha emperor
    Offline

    padisha emperor Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,564
    Thanks Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Aix-en-Provence, France
    Ratings:
    +53
    The "European Constitution" has a lot of dispositions about the European Parliament, and makes stronger him.
    It also makse stronger the role of the nationals Parliaments, with a procedure of "early warning", when they think that the EU does an intervention in a domain for whom the EU is not competent.

    The European Communities Justice Court (ECJC, in french CJCE) is able to sanction the Council or the Commission when they abuse of their power.
    And the excercice of the competences on the Eu scale is rule by some principes, the most important are proportionality and subsidiarity : the Community can not makes intervention more than necessary and more than the treaty says, and in some domain, it can only legifer when the dimension or the effects of the action do that the EU will be more able to act than the States (ex : for the protection against terrorism).

    And : the Commission has initiative power, only it can introduce laws. Sometimes after European Parliament's or E.U. Council 's demand. The Commission is composed of people proposed by the States. The Parliament has here a control. The E.U. Council is composed by ministers of the antional governments.
    So, in fact it is democratic, the powers are not isolated, there are interferenes, and then more democracy than it appears.

    And the European Constitution has also a disposision for a "citizen law", 1,000,000 of citizens of EU, from a representative number of States can askl the Commission for thr introduction of a law.
    This disposition and the reinforcement of the Parliament role, elected at the universal suffrage by the European gives more democracy.


    For the question about EU and communists, nosarcasm answer perfectly : the comparaison is laughable.
     

Share This Page