Why wont god heal amputees

[jillian]

So you never ridicule or complain when people believe in outrageous and horribly stupid things, ever? Good for you!

I find it disgusting that people in this modern day still believe in something as old and crappy as The Bible, for example (tora scrolls, quran, lord of the rings trilogy included etc). Has that piece of shit text and the priests who try to convince people that its something to care about not been proven wrong enough over the centuries? Do you live on a planet 12,000 years old? Are you the centre of the universe, does the sun revolve around you or you around it?

Well, if you live out in the djungle without any way of educating yourself you are certainly excused. But a person who has access to the internet, libraries etc I have a hard time excusing. Most people who post on msg boards do have access to internet, I'm pretty sure.

So go ahead and be a Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Aesir ETC believer. I'm not sure your fellow christians will think much of you either though, when you confess you believe in all the worlds religions, just in case, to cover your own selfish behind.

I think it's kind of silly to concern oneself with others' beliefs if those beliefs have no affect on us. I also don't understand your desire that people should have no beliefs. Truth is that humans are spiritual creatures. I think whatever our souls are need to be nourished. Does that nourishment need to come from G-d? Of course not. It can come from many things.

Do I have issues with the types who think everyone who doesn't subscribe to their version of the universe is "going to hell"? Absolutely! Do I think people totally miss the point when they use religion as a basis for violence? Of course. Do I think Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are up in whatever heaven is, shaking their heads and saying "these people don't get it"? Absolutely!

But I also don't understand the need to insult people's beliefs either. If everyone stopped doing that, the world would be a better place.

 

[Darwin]

So the point, if I was so inclined to do so, trying to argue with a rock such as yourself about religion would be WHAT exactly?

I guess the difference between you and I where religion is concerned is I really don't care what you believe, but you obviously think it's your business to concern yourself with what I choose to believe.

Not very liberal-thinking of you at all.

Oh it is very easy to "argue" religion with me.

GIVE ME SOME PROOF THAT YOUR RELIGION IS BETTER THAN OTHER RELIGIONS! If its not, why do you believe in it and not Hinduism, for example?

Of course it is pointless to quote any scripture until we have gotten past the absolute basics in a "religious argument" such as, why the heck is your religion any better than a religion I can make up right here and now?

Darwin 1:1 - All other religions are crap, I am God and have the right to ridicule all other false-gods and their silly little sheep. They should also send me free cookies, as a token of their love for my esteemed person, or live their afterlife sunk in a pit of shit. So Sayeth I, God!

 

[Darwin]

I think it's kind of silly to concern oneself with others' beliefs if those beliefs have no affect on us. I also don't understand your desire that people should have no beliefs. Truth is that humans are spiritual creatures. I think whatever our souls are need to be nourished. Does that nourishment need to come from G-d? Of course not. It can come from many things.

Do I have issues with the types who think everyone who doesn't subscribe to their version of the universe is "going to hell"? Absolutely! Do I think people totally miss the point when they use religion as a basis for violence? Of course. Do I think Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are up in whatever heaven is, shaking their heads and saying "these people don't get it"? Absolutely!

But I also don't understand the need to insult people's beliefs either. If everyone stopped doing that, the world would be a better place.

If you think that the religious fanatics that seem to make up a large part of the US population (including George Mongoloid Bush), and your abuse of the planet and our shared resources like AIR and the bloody climate you fuck up does not affect me then I dont know whats wrong with you, but I can tell ya IT DOES.

When you make your damn religion a 100% private thing and understand that there is no damn life after death to look forward to, only the miserable fucking lives we live here and now, perhaps we can forget about the stupidity of religion and the uneducated level people have to be kept at to keep believing in that bullshit, yes?

Yes, religious people piss me off. Nazis piss me off. Racists piss me off. People who are cruel to animals piss me off. And I will keep letting these people know it until they no longer do damage.

The more I study biochemistry, genetics etc, the more pissed off I get at people who talk about things they know nothing about, and quote 2,000 year old texts from a time where EVERYBODY, including the ones that made the bible up, were CLUELESS as some kind of argument, are full... of... SHIT.

 

[mattskramer]

If I'm wrong, I won't know it. If YOU are wrong, you're fucked.

You are referring to Pascal's Wager. For an explanation see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

See criticisms at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Criticisms and judge for yourself.

 

[jillian]

If you think that the religious fanatics that seem to make up a large part of the US population (including George Mongoloid Bush), and your abuse of the planet and our shared resources like AIR and the bloody climate you fuck up does not affect me then I dont know whats wrong with you, but I can tell ya IT DOES.

First of all... I'm not a religious type... ok? Part of survival of the fittest, oh great Darwinian, is that you assess and respond appropriately to stimuli. You haven't exactly done that....

I'll also say that religion and abuse of the environment are not the same thing. So I'm not quite sure where that rant came from.

When you make your damn religion a 100% private thing and understand that there is no damn life after death to look forward to, only the miserable fucking lives we live here and now, perhaps we can forget about the stupidity of religion and the uneducated level people have to be kept at to keep believing in that bullshit, yes?

My religion is followed by approximately 1.5% of the people in the world, so I don't know what "damn religion" you're talking about. Again, I, personally, have no great love for organized religion. I think spirituality is very important, however. Even Einstein was a spiritual being and saw the great wonder in the universe.

Yes, religious people piss me off. Nazis piss me off. Racists piss me off. People who are cruel to animals piss me off. And I will keep letting these people know it until they no longer do damage.

I certainly wouldn't put religious people in the same boat as nazis and racists or those who are cruel to animals. I agree with you as to them. My objection to religious types is whey they use religion as a support for racism, anti-semitism or anti-gay activity. But, once again... that's not all religious people. That's a group of religious people who have been given too much sway over the past eight years...

If you're going to argue your points effectively, you need to separate those things from your sweeping assertions that seem to include even me, and I'd say that's so far off base that it makes the rest of your point kind of not worth exploring.

The more I study biochemistry, genetics etc, the more pissed off I get at people who talk about things they know nothing about, and quote 2,000 year old texts from a time where EVERYBODY, including the ones that made the bible up, were CLUELESS as some kind of argument, are full... of... SHIT.

Given that you're a student, and probably fairly young (though I may be wrong about that), I'd say that your views are going to change about a million times before you leave this world.... whether with a G-d or without.

I'd also say that at such an age, it's difficult to understand that we don't know everything... in fact, I'd say that at 22, when I graduated law school, I had a much greater sense of certainly than I do now.

Is the bible made up? I certainly don't know. Do I believe it's the word of
G-d? No, I don't. I believe it's a book of allegories intended to teach moral lessons. I also happen to believe that G-d is far more than the human form he's given in the bible and that was a device to make whatever G-d is, understandable to us poor, limited humans.

Do I think there's life after death? Personally, I think there's something. What is is... I have no idea. But that belief is based on experiences I have had and I definitely wouldn't claim any sense of certainty either way. Perhaps when you grow up, you won't either. *shrug*

 

[mattskramer]

If you think that the religious fanatics that seem to make up a large part of the US population (including George Mongoloid Bush), and your abuse of the planet and our shared resources like AIR and the bloody climate you fuck up does not affect me then I dont know whats wrong with you, but I can tell ya IT DOES.

When you make your damn religion a 100% private thing and understand that there is no damn life after death to look forward to, only the miserable fucking lives we live here and now, perhaps we can forget about the stupidity of religion and the uneducated level people have to be kept at to keep believing in that bullshit, yes?

Yes, religious people piss me off. Nazis piss me off. Racists piss me off. People who are cruel to animals piss me off. And I will keep letting these people know it until they no longer do damage.

The more I study biochemistry, genetics etc, the more pissed off I get at people who talk about things they know nothing about, and quote 2,000 year old texts from a time where EVERYBODY, including the ones that made the bible up, were CLUELESS as some kind of argument, are full... of... SHIT.

I wish that you two would calm down a tiny bit. Darwin, don’t you think that you are being a little bit harsh. Yes, self-righteous self-proclaimed Christians have abused people and places. Yet atheists have abused people, places, and even churches. Can’t we all communicate out differences civilly and agree to disagree if you can’t convince the other person that you are right.

 

[Darwin]

First of all... I'm not a religious type... ok? Part of survival of the fittest, oh great Darwinian, is that you assess and respond appropriately to stimuli. You haven't exactly done that....

I'll also say that religion and abuse of the environment are not the same thing. So I'm not quite sure where that rant came from.



My religion is followed by approximately 1.5% of the people in the world, so I don't know what "damn religion" you're talking about. Again, I, personally, have no great love for organized religion. I think spirituality is very important, however. Even Einstein was a spiritual being and saw the great wonder in the universe.



I certainly wouldn't put religious people in the same boat as nazis and racists or those who are cruel to animals. I agree with you as to them. My objection to religious types is whey they use religion as a support for racism, anti-semitism or anti-gay activity. But, once again... that's not all religious people. That's a group of religious people who have been given too much sway over the past eight years...

If you're going to argue your points effectively, you need to separate those things from your sweeping assertions that seem to include even me, and I'd say that's so far off base that it makes the rest of your point kind of not worth exploring.



Given that you're a student, and probably fairly young (though I may be wrong about that), I'd say that your views are going to change about a million times before you leave this world.... whether with a G-d or without.

I'd also say that at such an age, it's difficult to understand that we don't know everything... in fact, I'd say that at 22, when I graduated law school, I had a much greater sense of certainly than I do now.

Is the bible made up? I certainly don't know. Do I believe it's the word of
G-d? No, I don't. I believe it's a book of allegories intended to teach moral lessons. I also happen to believe that G-d is far more than the human form he's given in the bible and that was a device to make whatever G-d is, understandable to us poor, limited humans.

Do I think there's life after death? Personally, I think there's something. What is is... I have no idea. But that belief is based on experiences I have had and I definitely wouldn't claim any sense of certainty either way. Perhaps when you grow up, you won't either. *shrug*

You start with saying you are not a religious type, then you claim that you are religious. How can you be both?

I'm 30 years old and study to be a veterinarian, in Sweden where I am born and have lived my whole life.

Looking at the american society from the outside, I can see how religion has completely permeated your society on all levels. In Sweden the discussions about abortion laws, wars, the climate and people not from our own nation would never look like the ones taking place in USA, because we are not as based on the christian religion as you are, anymore. Same goes for genocidal nations based on religion like Israel and all the horrible crimes against humanity they commit in the name of God, and the pieces of land they have given themselves the right to by refering to fairy tales.

If one actually believes in something there is no proof for, I still think there is something wrong. Sure, people have been ignorant in our evolution from a single cell organism to the dangerous unstable species we are today, seemingly growing out of control and devouring the planet like a virus disease.

I certainly think that religious people have done more harm than the nazis did in their short reign. Wonder if anyone got hurt in the christian crusades, perhaps even broken nails and worse damage was done to people, huh?

That you believe the bible is not the word of god, and you are unsure if the content is made up, confuses me. What other options do we have? My brain might be a little tired, so please list a few more for my consideration.

My experience tells me that what happens after death is decomposing, unless you are cremated of course, then its more like oxidation. You seem to be very confused for someone so old and wise.

 

[Shattered]

I think it's kind of silly to concern oneself with others' beliefs if those beliefs have no affect on us. I also don't understand your desire that people should have no beliefs. Truth is that humans are spiritual creatures. I think whatever our souls are need to be nourished. Does that nourishment need to come from G-d? Of course not. It can come from many things.

Do I have issues with the types who think everyone who doesn't subscribe to their version of the universe is "going to hell"? Absolutely! Do I think people totally miss the point when they use religion as a basis for violence? Of course. Do I think Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are up in whatever heaven is, shaking their heads and saying "these people don't get it"? Absolutely!

But I also don't understand the need to insult people's beliefs either. If everyone stopped doing that, the world would be a better place.

Nonsense.. I've left people to their own beliefs my entire life, and *most* of them have left me to mine.. Hasn't made the world any less sucky.

 

[Darwin]

I wish that you two would calm down a tiny bit. Darwin, don’t you think that you are being a little bit harsh. Yes, self-righteous self-proclaimed Christians have abused people and places. Yet atheists have abused people, places, and even churches. Can’t we all communicate out differences civilly and agree to disagree if you can’t convince the other person that you are right.

I do not identify with any group called "atheists" so I dont care. It is just a word to explain the absense of belief in silly religions. It does not make the non-believers into a group the same way a shared belief does.

People who come and discuss religion on messageboards better be prepared to discuss religion, don't you think? I can keep on asking for religious people to make sense until they accept that they cannot and move on, np.

 

[Darwin]

Nonsense.. I've left people to their own beliefs my entire life, and *most* of them have left me to mine.. Hasn't made the world any less sucky.

The very successful tactic of keeping ones head down and never say anything that might anger anyone? Not sure that is the way to go if one wants to live in a democratic society, though.

 

[mattskramer]

I do not identify with any group called "atheists" so I dont care. It is just a word to explain the absense of belief in silly religions. It does not make the non-believers into a group the same way a shared belief does.

People who come and discuss religion on messageboards better be prepared to discuss religion, don't you think? I can keep on asking for religious people to make sense until they accept that they cannot and move on, np.

I disagree.

With respect to finite concrete things, you can’t prove that something does not exist (unless there is a way to look everywhere at once). Perhaps unicorns exist but we have not found one yet. Yet, God (practically by definition) falls into a different category. There are people who play “mental gymnastics” with genetics theories and metaphysics and other subjects in order to prove that God exists or to prove that God does not exist.

Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that God does not exist.

There is evidence that God exists. [ame]http://amazon.com/s/ref=sr_kk_2/103-6480441-9864605?ie=UTF8&search-alias=aps&field-keywords=christian%20apologetics[/ame]

There is evidence that God does not exist. [ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/12764/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_3_4_last/103-6480441-9864605[/ame]

 

[Ruby]

I disagree.

With respect to finite concrete things, you can’t prove that something does not exist (unless there is a way to look everywhere at once). Perhaps unicorns exist but we have not found one yet. Yet, God (practically by definition) falls into a different category. There are people who play “mental gymnastics” with genetics theories and metaphysics and other subjects in order to prove that God exists or to prove that God does not exist.

Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that God does not exist.

There is evidence that God exists. http://amazon.com/s/ref=sr_kk_2/103...lias=aps&field-keywords=christian apologetics

There is evidence that God does not exist. http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestseller..._b_3_4_last/103-6480441-9864605&tag=ff0d01-20

You are actually trying to forward a logical fallacy as a valid stance...ie, proving a negative? You cant provide evidence for somthing that DOSENT exist so there is nothing out there that PROVES god dosent exist. Things that do not exist cant possibly leave a trail of evidence can they? If they could that would mean they EXIST. I find it hard to believe that such basic logic escapes you.

Also there is no book proving god DOES exist and every one that has tried has been completely debunked. They ended up offering nothing more than god of the gaps arguments such as "we dont know the answer therefore it must be a creator"....that is NOT evidence.

It is perfectly normal and even a GOOD thing to not believe in things there are NO evidence for like unicorns, pasta monsters etc.

 

[Darwin]

I disagree.

With respect to finite concrete things, you can’t prove that something does not exist (unless there is a way to look everywhere at once). Perhaps unicorns exist but we have not found one yet. Yet, God (practically by definition) falls into a different category. There are people who play “mental gymnastics” with genetics theories and metaphysics and other subjects in order to prove that God exists or to prove that God does not exist.

Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that God does not exist.

There is evidence that God exists. http://amazon.com/s/ref=sr_kk_2/103...lias=aps&field-keywords=christian apologetics

There is evidence that God does not exist. http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestseller..._b_3_4_last/103-6480441-9864605&tag=ff0d01-20

There is a place for people who believe in elves, orcs and hear voices and such...

Other than that it looks like Ruby gave a good reply to your ridiculous "evidence".

 

[Larkinn]

You are actually trying to forward a logical fallacy as a valid stance...ie, proving a negative? You cant provide evidence for somthing that DOSENT exist so there is nothing out there that PROVES god dosent exist. Things that do not exist cant possibly leave a trail of evidence can they? If they could that would mean they EXIST. I find it hard to believe that such basic logic escapes you.

It is possible to prove a negative...however that is not the criteria Matt is using.

Also there is no book proving god DOES exist and every one that has tried has been completely debunked. They ended up offering nothing more than god of the gaps arguments such as "we dont know the answer therefore it must be a creator"....that is NOT evidence.

Matt was giving evidence, not proof. There *are* books that give evidence for God...because there is some evidence.

It is perfectly normal and even a GOOD thing to not believe in things there are NO evidence for like unicorns, pasta monsters etc.

Normality is quite over-rated. And in what way is it "good"? It is more likely to be true, yes, but is not certainly true.

 

[Larkinn]

There is a place for people who believe in elves, orcs and hear voices and such...

So you think people who believe differently than you do are crazy? Shall I show you how your "facts" are also beliefs that are not set in stone?

 

[Ruby]

It is possible to prove a negative...however that is not the criteria Matt is using.

"X is true because there is no proof that X is false."

Thats the logical fallacy he is trying to promote.

Matt was giving evidence, not proof. There *are* books that give evidence for God...because there is some evidence.

No there isnt, there is only god of the gaps arguments. Lets see the evidence you say exists and I BET YOU a million trillion dollars its just another god of the gaps.

Matt gave a link to where you can buy books that forward the god of the gaps argument.

Normality is quite over-rated. And in what way is it "good"? It is more likely to be true, yes, but is not certainly true.

Believing in fairy tales as real is certainly harmful and we have seen the EVIDENCE of that in a lack of education, violence, lack of critical thinking skills etc. So yes its quite GOOD to be NORMAL and apply critical thinking skills to proposed theories like god that are designed for people to base their lives on.

 

[Darwin]

To noone and everyone: http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins...awkins/Work/Articles/1996-11-12dimbleby.shtml

A big topic to discuss, religion vs. education... I think Dawkins is worth reading as he spends a lot of time formulating the thoughts of many people who base their thoughts on education and not superstition.

 

[mattskramer]

There is a place for people who believe in elves, orcs and hear voices and such...

Other than that it looks like Ruby gave a good reply to your ridiculous "evidence".

The Case for a Creator was quite influential but it did not turn me into a Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_for_a_Creator

I haven’t found much criticism. Still, I understand that it practically only reveals holes that should be filled some day.

 

[Darwin]

So you think people who believe differently than you do are crazy? Shall I show you how your "facts" are also beliefs that are not set in stone?

Show me how bacteria when being exposed to antibiotics do not evolve, by having a few aquiring the genes that make them immune to the antibiotic just by using the 1/10000 error rate of RNA polymerase when it transcribes their genes, which is one of the big driving forces behind evolution. That is a fact I believe in.

Then you can prove to me that Santa Claus very well might exist, as you say people who believe in Santa Claus (mainly children I believe) might very well be right.

Edit: PubMed is a tool we have been taught to use to find scientific reports, maybe you can use that to find your evidence and proof that will show me my understanding of where the human race came from etc is wrong? Here is one article on the subject you can start by disproving, perhaps Nature will publish you and you will get famous! Noble Prize with the nice cash reward?
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=241164&blobtype=pdf

Edit2: BTW, I do not think that people who believe differently than me are crazy. I do think that people who believe in crazy things are crazy though. There is a difference, you know. Hence the reference to elves, orcs, fairy tale beings in general etc etc... those are stories made up by man, using something called "imagination" and "fantasy". I can make up infinite fantasy beings in my mind, if I was inclined to waste my time in that way, this does not make them all real though. Or do you mean that this is the case? If you do I would like to hear more about your take on how the world works.

 

[Ruby]

The Case for a Creator was quite influential but it did not turn me into a Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_for_a_Creator

I haven’t found much criticism. Still, I understand that it practically only reveals holes that should be filled some day.

It offers no evidence, it offers opinions, philosophy and your run of the mill god of the gaps arguments.

This is exactly my point, this "faith" thing in a creator seems to distance people from being able to critically think and assess EVIDENCE that is CREDIBLE and beyond philosophy, wishful thinking and god of the gaps as evidence.