Why we need God

[Shogun]

so, again, what makes your perceived need of a theological belief any more relevant than the perceived opinion of an atheist that such is NOT necessary?

 

[manifold]

so, again, what makes your perceived need of a theological belief any more relevant than the perceived opinion of an atheist that such is NOT necessary?

I guess I don't understand what you mean by relevant.

It's more relevant to me because it is my belief that it is necessary. I acknowledge the possibility that I could be wrong about it.

 

[Shogun]

relevant to YOU, but your OP suggests that we should ALL have this same belief based on your observations and perspective which, i'm suggesting, is no more relevant to ALL of us than the observations and perceptions of an atheist.

 

[manifold]

relevant to YOU, but your OP suggests that we should ALL have this same belief based on your observations and perspective which, i'm suggesting, is no more relevant to ALL of us than the observations and perceptions of an atheist.

Like I said, as your own individual god you are free to believe, suggest and assign relevance as you see fit. And I'm free to do the same.

 

[Diuretic]

Is god simply projection?

And in honour of the sub-thread - could this be Ant Heaven?

 

[JBeukema]

Am I the only one amused to find maani ironically spouted his poor comprehension of a concept at the heart of satanic philosophy?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well.......most idiots DO laugh pretty easy about nothing Jelly Butt Sniffer.

Apparently, you're now showing your true colors.

 

[Neser Boha]

Manifold... I'm sorry, but you're argument... is just not doing it for me...

I lived my entire life without believing in any 'god' and I'm just fine with the added benefit of not having all sorts of hangups that seem to go with ALL organized religions (they're mostly of sexual character). I do believe we are all connected somehow - some of us more closely and tightly than others... but I don't believe in a dude in the sky, nor do I feel the need to do so. Thank you very much.

Then you should simply be thankful. Thankful that you get to enjoy the benefits of the belief of others without having to go along yourself.

Now that made no sense whatsoever. You really don't have this thought through, do you... You're just talking a LOT of shit and see how many flies are going to be circling around it...

What a hoot.

 

[sidneyworld]

Manifold... I'm sorry, but you're argument... is just not doing it for me...

I lived my entire life without believing in any 'god' and I'm just fine with the added benefit of not having all sorts of hangups that seem to go with ALL organized religions (they're mostly of sexual character). I do believe we are all connected somehow - some of us more closely and tightly than others... but I don't believe in a dude in the sky, nor do I feel the need to do so. Thank you very much.

Then you should simply be thankful. Thankful that you get to enjoy the benefits of the belief of others without having to go along yourself.

Now that made no sense whatsoever. You really don't have this thought through, do you... You're just talking a LOT of shit and see how many flies are going to be circling around it...

What a hoot.

Faith does not impose sexual restrictions. Following God's law is something second natured to many people who have any sense of dignity and honor and self-esteem. One who possess these characteristics are already going in the right direction and not necessarily because of any practice of worship.

One thing that people may not realize is that living a good life comes with knowledge and wisdom. Not following the stringent man made laws imposed thousands of years ago against God's will by various groups of people who arbitrarily decided that sacrifice and piety should take on a greater form. I don't believe God intended for mankind to impose any elevated restrictions on our way of life because the basic values in any successful community is quite forthright and logical as was set forth in the 10 Commandments. These are very basic prescriptions for living harmoneously among other people in any society, and not all that unrealistic in it's application:

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"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
Catholic teaching distinguishes between dulia—paying honor to God through contemplation of objects such as paintings and statues—and latria—adoration directed to God alone. (See Catechism 2084-2141.)

This directive goes beyond the simple demand of worship of God exclusively. Even for those who do not know about God or believe in God, the worship of money and material things for instance is indeed a means of self-empowerment and potential tyranny. A thirst for power, influence, recognition and notariety. History has clearly demonstrated the outcome of such a malignant growth of power in various people, responsible for the successful massive deception, destruction, chaos and genocide. And this is realized on many levels, in many fields, and in every part of the world.

More importantly the concept of not worshiping any other idol or being suggests that we are to keep well within our parameter of existence as we did not create ourselves nor has science been able to create life or conclusively explain the beginning of life by any viable means conclusive or absolute. Thus there is an element of arrogance to assume that we should worship anything through our elective, as if to assume that we have the power to designate gods of worship under our own power. If we constructed such things, they simply do not exist by any divine intervention. They are false gods, similar to any rock.

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"You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."
This commandment prohibits not just swearing but the misappropriation of religious language in order to commit a crime, participating in occult practices, and blaspheming against places or people that are holy to God. (See Catechism 2142-2167.)

What this means aside the obvious is that one cannot use the divinity of God to promote subversive causes. How many preachers have we come across in history who use religion to further their personal agenda. Kingdoms have been successfully ruled for centuries instilling the fear of "God" and eternal damnation to keep their subjects in line with undying loyalty and devotion. This is not a practice of faith, but simply a means in keeping control of the masses. This ideology was practiced for thousands of years, especially during the segregation of power by Caesar to various Hebrew leaders who themselves became self-absorbed and perhaps intoxicated with the sudden legitimate rule of its people through the imposition of man made religious doctrines as absolute laws which became less and less the worship of God and respect for life, but simply about control and power.

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"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."

While the idea of slavery is and of itself disgusting in this contemporary society, historically human enslavement has been a part of history since the beginning of time. The authors of the Bible, through what is presumably through divine intervention, were simply applying this directive to their daily lives, as it was during that period in history. Essentially keeping the Sabbath is simply an exercise in not losing a perspective of our existence by being completely absorbed in a daily routine. We are encourgaged to breath the air and smell the roses and thank God for the fact that we live and breath and exist for a greater purpose beyond the soil that we till and the rewards we reap from it. It's wonderful advise for everyone who places too great a value on their 9 to 5 routine, their conflicts with managing a living, raising their families, or simply dealing with adversity. More good advise.

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"Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you."
This commandment emphasizes the family as part of God's design, as well as an extended metaphor that God uses for his relationship with his creation. (See Catechism 2197-2257.)

Your family is part of your legacy no matter how terrible or dyfunctional or intolerable. To indiscriminately disgrace them is to disgrace yourself. I can't remember how many times I would come across someone who blatantly expresses disgust for a family member. Their kids, their husbands, their parents, etc. etc. No matter how bad the situation is, which indeed should be dealt with, it should be done behind closed doors because to disclose such information publically shows an extremely lack of respect, integrity and dignity. I would never trust anyone who does this, and I haven't, unless it was a close friend in private quarters who truly needed my help. Not simply sounding off for the world to know. Your family is the beginning of your life. Perpetuating bad press is only sealing your own fate in this regard.

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"You shall not murder."

The right of states to execute criminals is recognized when necessary to preserve the safety of citizens. However, other methods of protecting society (incarceration, rehabilitation) are increasingly available. Catholics (along with many Protestants) also consider abortion sinful and a violation of this commandment. War, if rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy are met (that is, the "use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated"), is not a violation because "governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed." (See Catechism 2258-2330.)


This is self-explanatory and exceptional reasoning of this commandment.

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"Neither shall you commit adultery."
Adultery is the breaking of the holy bond between husband and wife, and is thus a sacrilege. This commandment includes not just the act of adultery, but lust as well. (See Catechism 2331-2400.)

This might sound like a joke in this society, but its quite real and goes beyond breaking a bond between you and your partner as it critically compromises a persons self-esteem to live such a lie. It's one of the most destructive behaviors of man, no matter whether married or otherwise, especially when children are involved. This is not to say that in contemporary society if you are mentally and physically abused by someone, you should remain in that relationship, which is equally compromising of a person's self-esteem, but this is one of only a few exceptions in having some reason to stray from a relationship, again, especially when children are involved. We live in a liberal society where discipline and dedication is almost non-existent in terms of creating a family and understanding the how essential it is to follow through on the commitment. While we as individuals certainly have a right to be with whomever they wish, it's important to understand that both parties should be true and sincere to their intentions at all times, during the course of any relationship. And by all means, you don't begin to test the waters on the other side of the lake, once you've made the commitment to raise a family. You might just fall into the deepest end.

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"Neither shall you steal."
(See Catechism 2401-2463.)

Self-explanatory

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"Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor."
This commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in relations with others. This also forbids lying. (See Catechism 2464-2513.)

This is an exceptional directive because the malicious destruction of a persons character even in this society is as bad as being physically molested. I'm sure most of us to whatever degree, especially during a divorce or power struggle at work etc, have experienced this sort of thing on either side on the table. In many cases it leaves a person completely disarmed and vulnerable, having to qualify themselves under the most difficult of circumstances; such as when a father is suddenly being accused of molesting their child in a custody hearing, and the child is being persuaded by the mother that daddy is a bad man. Good grief. This happened to two of my friends and while the outcome for both was resolved in good standing after a psychological interview with the child and an ex parte hearing with the judge and the child, the period of time they had to endure this beforehand was devastating.

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"Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife."
(See Catechism 2514-2533.)

Many women, including myself at some point way back when, misinterpreted this commandment as it seemed entirely too sexist. As if to suggest that a wife is the property of a man. Again, the role of women in those days, and still in some cultures today is subordinate to men. Even in this country, behind closed doors. Domestic violence is a major concern in this country. But it's also illegal.

What this directive really means is that you cannot interfer with the sanctity of outside relationships. You cannot break up a couple because you are lusting after one of them. Unlike adultery where both might have met under mutual circumstances, the deliberate act of infusing ones heart to someone who is already committed is complete lust and greed and an ultimate act of deception and lack of respect and regard for both individuals.

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"Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
(See Catechism 2534-2557.)

Here, unlike the simple act of stealing, there is a predisposition to who your stealing from. There is a mutual understanding and respect for those you live among by virtue of familiarity and trust. It's a greater element of deception to steal from your friends, your neighbors, your family because enters an act of betrayal of such trust.

In Dante's Inferno, betrayal of trust ranks a higher caliber of sin than murder, because you are taking advantage of the confidence you have instilled in someone, creating an element of vulnerability. Most people do not close their doors to friends they have trusted. Most children do not run away from family members. Once that trust is violated the sense of loss has a far greater long term value in consequence than simply being robbed or buglarized by a stranger.

My point in all of this is to demonstrate that the Ten Commandments is essentially a road map to living among others in peace. Whether or not you understand of believe in God or Jesus Christ these directives are sound, absolute and very, very good advise in increasing the quality of your life by whatever degree of discipline you can exercise in following them. And this was the only set of rules bestoyed upon man by God.

I guarantee you!

Anne Marie

 

[Al Gunn]

"And this was the only set of rules bestoyed upon man by God. "

How do you know this?

 

[sidneyworld]

"And this was the only set of rules bestoyed upon man by God. "

How do you know this?

Because it's timeless and infallable in terms of living among others in any society. No matter whatever personal strife one might have within their family or themselves, or society even, their issues and conflicts or desires should not compromise the quality of life of any other individual outside that inner circle.

Much of what is written as testimony in the Bible is the love and glory of God. The testimonies are written by human beings interpreted by human beings and its very subjective and at times arbitrary although I don't believe it was meant to be. While there is an absolute definition to scripture, its nearly impossible to correctly interpret its intention with absolute certainty because of the culture and spiritual dichotomy incorporated into it. But the Ten Commandments is absolute in this regard because it does not exclusively apply to a specific period of time.

Anne Marie

 

[Al Gunn]

"And this was the only set of rules bestoyed upon man by God. "

How do you know this?

Because it's timeless and infallable in terms of living among others in any society. No matter whatever personal strife one might have within their family or themselves, or society even, their issues and conflicts or desires should not compromise the quality of life of any other individual outside that inner circle.

Much of what is written as testimony in the Bible is the love and glory of God. The testimonies are written by human beings interpreted by human beings and its very subjective and at times arbitrary although I don't believe it was meant to be. While there is an absolute definition to scripture, its nearly impossible to correctly interpret its intention with absolute certainty because of the culture and spiritual dichotomy incorporated into it. But the Ten Commandments is absolute in this regard because it does not exclusively apply to a specific period of time.

Anne Marie

No, I asked how do you know this was "bestoyed (sic) upon man by god"? How do you know for sure that moses didn't just go up into the hills and make that shit up?

 

[Neser Boha]

This topic makes me so ... sleepy. I know, 'then don't read it'... I'm sorry, I'm just too bored today... I needs a challenge - maybe I should go ride my bike or something a bit more exhausting. Carry on my friends and have fun with it! I have no beef with faith...

 

[manifold]

Now that made no sense whatsoever.

Then clearly you've chosen not to reflect on it.

But I'm not going to fault you for that.

 

[Neser Boha]

Now that made no sense whatsoever.

Then clearly you've chosen not to reflect on it.

But I'm not going to fault you for that.

No, it just simply made no sense to me... Believe it or not, but even though it might seem very clear to you, others might not think so... And yeah... I have not held many religious discussions throughout my life... I find them to be a bit... futile. I'm not trying to insult you by saying that though... I simply feel that way.

 

[manifold]

Now that made no sense whatsoever.

Then clearly you've chosen not to reflect on it.

But I'm not going to fault you for that.

No, it just simply made no sense to me... Believe it or not, but even though it might seem very clear to you, others might not think so... And yeah... I have not held many religious discussions throughout my life... I find them to be a bit... futile. I'm not trying to insult you by saying that though... I simply feel that way.

Lucky for me this isn't a religious discussion.

I honestly believe it should be clear to anyone who exerts even the tiniest measure of effort. Many may disgree with the point, but I hardly imagine anyone couldn't at least comprehend the point itself, unless they're really really intellectually challenged. I don't think you are really really intellectually challenged, so I'll assume it's due to lack of effort.

 

[sidneyworld]

"And this was the only set of rules bestoyed upon man by God. "

How do you know this?

Because it's timeless and infallable in terms of living among others in any society. No matter whatever personal strife one might have within their family or themselves, or society even, their issues and conflicts or desires should not compromise the quality of life of any other individual outside that inner circle.

Much of what is written as testimony in the Bible is the love and glory of God. The testimonies are written by human beings interpreted by human beings and its very subjective and at times arbitrary although I don't believe it was meant to be. While there is an absolute definition to scripture, its nearly impossible to correctly interpret its intention with absolute certainty because of the culture and spiritual dichotomy incorporated into it. But the Ten Commandments is absolute in this regard because it does not exclusively apply to a specific period of time.

Anne Marie

No, I asked how do you know this was "bestoyed (sic) upon man by god"? How do you know for sure that moses didn't just go up into the hills and make that shit up?

Why would any human being willfully subordinate themselves to a diety, to some higher power, if they did not exist? And beyond that, what did Moses stand to gain in the event he made it all up himself? What wealth, what power? If spirituality, if this divine being(s) did not exist what would be the purpose of presenting these set of rules?

Anne Marie

 

[JBeukema]

Why would any human being willfully subordinate themselves to a diety, to some higher power, if they did not exist?

psychological comfort
insanity
brainwashing

And beyond that, what did Moses stand to gain in the event he made it all up himself?

make the voices in his head shutup?

 

[Al Gunn]

Sid, don't be so naive please. Moses had everything to gain, power/leadership/god-like...

"Why would any human being willfully subordinate themselves to a diety, to some higher power, if they did not exist"

You do,

 

[amrchaos]

relevant to YOU, but your OP suggests that we should ALL have this same belief based on your observations and perspective which, i'm suggesting, is no more relevant to ALL of us than the observations and perceptions of an atheist.

Like I said, as your own individual god you are free to believe, suggest and assign relevance as you see fit. And I'm free to do the same.

What manifold is hitting at is the difference between Reality and our own perception. It is not necessarily true that two people that shared the same experiences will come away with the same understanding. Nor is it true that your concept of what is "truth", or your perception,is any more truer than the next person who sees and understands things differently.

Is this a bad thing? I think it is actually a wonderful defense mechanism against reality. What I might not understand, another may understand and confer their understanding to me.