Why try to balance the budget?

oldfart

Older than dirt
Nov 5, 2009
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Another thread brought up this point, but I didn't want to hijack it. My question is serious, what reasoning is behind the campaigns for a balanced budget?

Most of these efforts are based on analogy with a household or business. Theoretically a household or business is income constrained and must live within its means, spending no more than it brings in. But this simple notion flies in the face of how households and businesses actually operate. And there is an important difference in that national governments are essentially immortal (as are successful corporations) while households and smaller business are dominated by a life cycle theory of income and spending.

Start with a simple household, one that does not start with any appreciable wealth or debt burden, say an old fashioned college graduate from 40 years ago before student loan debt. In a real sense (but not accounting sense) this household has a pretty good balance sheet, there is a lot of human capital (education) and not much debt. Back then, the first debt most graduates acquired was a car loan. This didn't really change the balance sheet, as the car was an asset and the loan a liability. Cash flow was reduced by the costs of owning and operating the car and transportation services secured. No big deal. Multiple by a factor of ten, and the same process describes the first house/mortgage. My point here is that the education, car, and house are all assets that generate income or necessary services in the future. The debt incurred is relevant only to the extent that the household has to be able to service it.

Similarly, a business incurs expenses for training, recruitment, physical capital, and intellectual property. These expenses create assets, some of which show up on the balance sheet and some which don't. These assets generate future income which hopefully is able to service the debt.

Now in the case of businesses, there are well established accounting rules for defining investment in assets. Some are non-depreciable, some are amortizable intangible assets (like patents, etc), and some are depreciable physical assets. All three are balance sheet items, so that bankers and financial analysts can compute "net book value" of assets minus depreciation and debt, asset-by-asset and at the firm level. We do not consider a company insolvent when the value of its assets exceed the amount of its debt. It gets a little harder applying the same reasoning to a household, but banks do it all the time with financial statements. The borrower adds up the value of all assets, subtracts all liabilities, and the remainder is the borrower's net worth.

But we do not use these concepts in governmental accounting. There is no good register of assets, and some assets are hard to value. Exactly what is an aircraft carrier worth? Or a mile long Interstate highway tunnel? These are clearly public investment, and ought to be accounted for similar to assets of a household or a business; if we are going to use the analogy.

So if we are going to treat government like a business or household, we first would have to account properly for public investments. This has two implications. First, a mere recital of the amount of the public debt is laughably inadequate. What matters for "solvency" is the size of the debt compared to the size of the assets. There have been attempts to do this, and they generally result in an asset-to-debt ratio in the neighborhood of three to one. I will gladly pay off my share of the national debt if I also get my share of the national assets in the liquidation. A few miles of the Natchez Trace Parkway should suffice nicely.

Note that the above exercise only has meaning in a LIQUIDATION. If we are talking about the size of the national debt, this is usually what people mean when they talk about the burden of the debt to future generations. They don't talk about the public goods that go with it. A second meaning that attaches to the size of the national debt is the cost of servicing it. For this it not only matters what the size of the national debt is, but also at what interest rate it is funded at. The relevant figure here would be inflation-adjusted debt service as a percentage of GDP.

So if we set aside the homilies of comparison of government to business and households, what criteria should we use judge the size of deficits and the national debt? A lot of economists have followed Keynes and advocated a modified balanced budget over the life cycle of the business cycle. This means that in downturns the government should run a deficit and in good times it should run a surplus. But why is a zero long-term deficit the magic number?

A second proposal is to look at the cost of servicing the debt and only run deficits that keep the real cost relative to GDP of interest stable. In essence this argues for a perpetual deficit that grows at the same rate as the economy as a whole. But this is also a solution that begs the question of why a steady ratio is desirable, although in the case of many countries (but not the United States) for foreign trade reasons this may be a limiting boundary condition--see Argentina.

A third choice would be to advocate a budget that will achieve a "non-accelerating rate of inflation consistent with full employment". If we go to this standard, it might well be that national debt will grow forever, at least in absolute terms. The roots of this go back to the Employment Act of 1946. The idea is that we set an acceptable upper limit on inflation (right now I would peg this at about 3%), then provide enough stimulus to move us rapidly toward full employment. Note that an unemployed resource generates no income, so any project is marginally better than none; this is a demand-side solution. But if we are a tiny bit brighter, this approach should have a stock of projects that increase public assets which will have a supply-side effect. Maybe it makes little sense to increase spending on research and highways in times of full employment, but it clearly is indicated in times of high unemployment.

Basically I am arguing for deconstructing national income accounts to identify public investment and factoring that into discussions of the national debt and deficit. We should apply the same accounting practices to government that we apply to businesses and households. The goal should not be an arbitrary target for these policies, but rather programs that maximize growth and limit inflation. So, is there a good argument to be made for choosing a zero deficit, or even a stable interest to GDP ratio as a goal? If there is I would like to hear it. But please, don't trot out the tired old analogy again if you can't address the accounting issues.
 
So, is there a good argument to be made for choosing a zero deficit,
sure:
1) politicians have to raise taxes to pay for what they spend to buy our votes.
2) it limits the size of govt and thus limits waste
3) it forces China to buy our products rather than out debt
4) new generations don't have to pay for waste of previous generations
 
Yeah people love big government.....
Spend,spend,spend and then spend some more...
We are $18 trillion in debt and can be at $20 trillion when Obama leaves office....
Obama had many problems with Bush and our national debt, then he takes office
and doesn't have a problem....

We haven't had a budget in years operating on a continuing resolution all this time.
WTF?

Democrats hated the national debt under a Republican President
and love it under a Democrat President....

This is crazy shit...
What happens when interest rates go up.
It will cost us a fortune in interest payments alone on $18 trillion debt....

Doesn't that scare people...
It scares me.
 
Very thoughtful. A couple comments:

First:
You mention you want a couple miles of the Natchez Trace. What is its value? And that of anything else the government can sell? Or what about I-65 considering the traffic is more substantial. I am trying to think of what it is worth. Shut it down and see what the market is really willing to pay to drive across it?

I think there is value, but that value comes from is primarily a result of the businesses driving that value. I suppose this could be connected to "you didn't build that".

Going a step further, and even more priceless are that of Yellowstone, Yosemite, ets. Are we going to settle debt by selling China a national park?

Second:
You mention the financial statements do not accurately represent the value of our assets as, say, a corporate would - especially in the value of its intangibles. Again, are we going sell our intangibles to pay off the debt?

This reminds me of the oft unfortunate situation where family property has spent generations in a family and when the owner passes, the family's only option to pay estate taxes is to sell their own property. Pent up value cannot pay creditors.

In addition and in a similar manner, the financial statements do not accurately represent the liabilities either - as would be required in a publicly traded corporation. Pages 47-49 (pdf pgs 70-72) demonstrate this in the social liability alone in the federal financials.

U.S. GAO - Financial Audit U.S. Government s Fiscal Years 2013 and 2012 Consolidated Financial Statements

Third:
Going further with the household finance question, outside of taxes, most household's largest expense is their housing - accounting anywhere between 25% to 35% of their expenses. That same analogy - using a 25% housing budget - would suggest a person could support earning $50k could support a $200k mortgage under the favorable conditions below.

upload_2014-12-7_11-34-55.png


At $18 trillion in debt, we would need approximately $4.5 trillion in revenue. In actuality though, we truly have over $71 trillion in debt that must be accounted for. We would need $18 trillion in revenue to keep with the household example. Or conversely, considering debt of $71 trillion is roughly 25.9 times revenues of $2.775 trillion, you could say we have a $1.275 million mortgage on a $50k salary...

upload_2014-12-7_11-52-35.png


Fourth:
Why is percentage of GDP valid? GDP is much more consistent and less volatile and we cannot pay anything with GDP - debt must be repaid with government receipts which 2.5 times more volatile. On the same note, corporate revenues tell far less about the financial position of a company than the bottom line. The same goes for a household and the government isn't substantially different in this regard.

Back to the subject of why we need a balanced budget... There are degrees of risk and responsibility in my opinion. If we demonstrated any constraint or responsibility in our spending I could understand a position of little concern. However, the debt continues to grow, and more importantly the long-term liabilities are growing through the roof and we are treating them as if they do not exist. In a rational system, I could agree more with your perspective. But I believe we are moving beyond that point.

Thoughts?
 
Why even count the debt or deficit at all if government doesn't operate under the same accounting standards as the rest of society?

Where does government get the money it uses to operate?

Why tax anyone or any entity for revenue if government is exempt from the accounting standards used by the rest of society? Wouldn't it simply make more sense to just have the bank charter simply credit the treasury for any funds needed?

Does the federal reserve operate under the same accounting standards as teh rest of us? (trick question)

If not, why not?
 
Are we going to settle debt by selling China a national park?

This seems to be the OP's prevailing thought process, yes. The problem is, that "public" assets are just that and hence not for sale. Meaning you can not add them as an asset to the balance sheet of an entity. Any entity. If we do, these aren't public assets they belong to the State. Meaning that the State is in fact, in business for itself.

If that is the case we have to view the State in a different fashion than we do now. How can we view the State as anything other than a master level extortion ring if they actually have the ability to resolve THEIR debts by holding public assets as collateral. This is the mind fuck the state has brought down onto people. They believe the State to be "we the people" and that it isn't a business and then turn around and doublespeak about how the accounting standards will be performed.

I mean, you have to have a deeply, unresolvable cognition failure to follow this type of "logic".
 
Yeah people love big government.....
Spend,spend,spend and then spend some more...
We are $18 trillion in debt and can be at $20 trillion when Obama leaves office....
Obama had many problems with Bush and our national debt, then he takes office
and doesn't have a problem....

We haven't had a budget in years operating on a continuing resolution all this time.
WTF?

Democrats hated the national debt under a Republican President
and love it under a Democrat President....

This is crazy shit...
What happens when interest rates go up.
It will cost us a fortune in interest payments alone on $18 trillion debt....

Doesn't that scare people...
It scares me.

If the size of the national debt scares you, there is medication for that. Are you scared of global warming too? There is more evidence for that than for harm coming from increases in the national debt.

I am assuming you are feeling better after your political rant. But you have not addressed any of the issues I raised. You have stated no reason to have zero as a target for the deficit. But thank you for your opinion.
 
Very thoughtful. A couple comments:

First:
You mention you want a couple miles of the Natchez Trace. What is its value? And that of anything else the government can sell? Or what about I-65 considering the traffic is more substantial. I am trying to think of what it is worth. Shut it down and see what the market is really willing to pay to drive across it?

I think there is value, but that value comes from is primarily a result of the businesses driving that value. I suppose this could be connected to "you didn't build that".

Going a step further, and even more priceless are that of Yellowstone, Yosemite, ets. Are we going to settle debt by selling China a national park?

Obviously the comment on the Natchez Trace Parkway was a point of personal privilege making an example. If you have never driven it, you have missed one of the true jewels of the National Park Service.

One of the problems with public goods is measurablility. As I noted, there is no ready private market for aircraft carriers either. Some goods do not have a market, but that does not make them worthless. I shudder to think how you arrive at the value of a judicial system by reference to a market.

Second:
You mention the financial statements do not accurately represent the value of our assets as, say, a corporate would - especially in the value of its intangibles. Again, are we going sell our intangibles to pay off the debt?

This reminds me of the oft unfortunate situation where family property has spent generations in a family and when the owner passes, the family's only option to pay estate taxes is to sell their own property. Pent up value cannot pay creditors.

In addition and in a similar manner, the financial statements do not accurately represent the liabilities either - as would be required in a publicly traded corporation. Pages 47-49 (pdf pgs 70-72) demonstrate this in the social liability alone in the federal financials.

I am suggesting that the entire exercise of computing a national "net worth" is a fool's errand. The analogy of a government to a business or a household is a false one for multiple reasons. There is a bountiful literature in the economics of public finance on this issue and agencies such as CBO and GAO spend a lot of time on it. It's also related to the issue of "waste" in government spending, but that's a topic for another day. Decisions on the national budget will have to be made on some basis other than accounting theory, and I posit that using an arbitrary fixed standard such as zero is not a very good choice.

Third:
Going further with the household finance question, outside of taxes, most household's largest expense is their housing - accounting anywhere between 25% to 35% of their expenses. That same analogy - using a 25% housing budget - would suggest a person could support earning $50k could support a $200k mortgage under the favorable conditions below.

View attachment 34805

At $18 trillion in debt, we would need approximately $4.5 trillion in revenue. In actuality though, we truly have over $71 trillion in debt that must be accounted for. We would need $18 trillion in revenue to keep with the household example. Or conversely, considering debt of $71 trillion is roughly 25.9 times revenues of $2.775 trillion, you could say we have a $1.275 million mortgage on a $50k salary...

View attachment 34806

Your analysis is based on a rule of thumb about affordability of housing on a household level. Underlying it are assumptions regarding things like the mortgage interest rate. If the rate on Treasury bonds were the same rate as on mortgages, you might have a better case. But then if the rates were the same, no one would be able to get a mortgage! (Why invest in a risky mortgage if you could get the same return on a Treasury?)

Fourth:
Why is percentage of GDP valid? GDP is much more consistent and less volatile and we cannot pay anything with GDP - debt must be repaid with government receipts which 2.5 times more volatile. On the same note, corporate revenues tell far less about the financial position of a company than the bottom line. The same goes for a household and the government isn't substantially different in this regard.

Statistical "validity" refers to the degree to which a statistical formula measures what we want to measure. For example, the question of how well the CPI is for a proxy of inflation is a question of statistical validity. The common argument against the CPI is that sampling makes it less valid; the answer to that is other measures such as the Billion Price Project yield almost identical results.

What we are trying to measure is the "burden of servicing the national debt". The first approximation is to adjust interest on the debt for inflation. We then either express this as a per capita amount (which adjusts for population growth but not economic growth) or as a percentage of GDP. People who view the deficit with horror tend to use per capita figures and those who do not tend to use percentage of GDP. Which is more meaningful, to say that inflation-adjusted interest on the debt is $XXX per household or that it is $0.YY of every dollar of income?

Back to the subject of why we need a balanced budget... There are degrees of risk and responsibility in my opinion. If we demonstrated any constraint or responsibility in our spending I could understand a position of little concern. However, the debt continues to grow, and more importantly the long-term liabilities are growing through the roof and we are treating them as if they do not exist. In a rational system, I could agree more with your perspective. But I believe we are moving beyond that point.

Thoughts?

Your problem seems to be with the theory of rational expectations which is the basis of anti-Keynesian theory ("fresh-water" economics). This puts your policy perspective (bemoaning the lack of fiscal discipline) at odds with the economic theory behind most of the advocates of that perspective. In a more rational world, my job would be easier, in a perfectly rational world, I would be unemployed. Similarly anyone who thinks the political budget process is rational in any economic sense will have a hard time understanding welfare economics (which has nothing to do with welfare payments).

I would also note that there is a problem with a discussion along the lines you have been making. There is no realistic way a society can "save" resources for future use other than public and private real investment. Financial investment, which we have been talking about is irrelevant. Suppose we look at providing for future retirees a couple decades from now. If everyone loads up on 401(k)'s and private investments in mutual funds, stocks, and bonds, and if real investment in appropriate housing stock, medical facilities, education in the health professions, medical research, public transportation for elderly, and similar programs remains at today's level; we will not retire in comfort, but merely into an economy plagued by high inflation in the sectors providing services to the elderly. An increase in demand in a market with inadequate supply results in inflation. Paradoxically, the solution deficit hawks recommend is precisely the course of action most likely to bring about the high inflation they argue they seek to avoid.

I have no doubt of your good motives and congratulate you on your willingness to be open-minded about these issues. But much of the support, in academe, business, and the political world, is not so disinterested. Those who fill the ranks of deficit hawks at the higher levels, I am convinced, basically know that their position is untenable. They persist in it because it is to their financial and professional benefit individually and as a class to do so, regardless of the adverse effects of such policies on the economy in general and the welfare of the vast bulk of the American people. I just don't think that people like Martin Feldman are stupid enough to believe what they often say, and even Marty has lapses into lucidity which horrify his financial backers!
 
You have stated no reason to have zero as a target for the deficit.

1) no debt no interest payments
2) no debt no interestest payments on govt waste
3) no debt China has to buy our products, not our debt with their Walmart dollars
4) no debt liberal's have to try to raise taxes to pay for their waste
5) no debt no war without public paying for it with new taxes
 
Why even count the debt or deficit at all if government doesn't operate under the same accounting standards as the rest of society?

I agree with you. Government accounting should look more like business and household accounting by valuing assets to measure solvency and efficiency.

Where does government get the money it uses to operate?

It doesn't. Spending is the first step in the process; government does not have a pile of money in a vault somewhere that it must draw down in order to spend it. Your next paragraph answers this one.

Why tax anyone or any entity for revenue if government is exempt from the accounting standards used by the rest of society? Wouldn't it simply make more sense to just have the bank charter simply credit the treasury for any funds needed?

The purpose of taxation is not to have funds to enable spending; it is to withdraw sufficient buying power from the private sector to free up the resources needed to provide the goods and services the government wishes to purchase. As long as the budget does not create accelerating inflation, increases in government spending will be reflected in increased output. We have had this conversation before.

Does the federal reserve operate under the same accounting standards as teh rest of us? (trick question)

If not, why not?

No. The Federal Reserve operates under the accounting standards established by Congress. As long as the Fed does not break a law or require an appropriation by Congress, it is pretty free to use any accounting standards it likes to achieve the objectives established in the Federal Reserve Act and the Full Employment Act.
 
Are we going to settle debt by selling China a national park?

This seems to be the OP's prevailing thought process, yes. The problem is, that "public" assets are just that and hence not for sale.

We agree. I thank you for your support.

Now that we agree that public policy should not be based on analogies with businesses and households, how would you choose a target for the deficit?
 
Basically I am arguing for deconstructing national income accounts to identify public investment and factoring that into discussions of the national debt and deficit.

Factoring it in in what sense? The only way this works is to put these public investments onto a ledger as collateral to debt and deficit. Meaning that these "investments" can be sold. And I circle right back to where I ended my post last time.
 
Have you seen what Japan is going through by any chance?

Yes. If you want to discuss Japan, I recommend a separate thread.

My point is that we're traveling a very, very similar path in our race to the bottom. There are definitely considerable differences, but as far as monetary policy is concerned, and how the government is using it's debt...not so much.
 
Are we going to settle debt by selling China a national park?

This seems to be the OP's prevailing thought process, yes. The problem is, that "public" assets are just that and hence not for sale.

We agree. I thank you for your support.

Now that we agree that public policy should not be based on analogies with businesses and households, how would you choose a target for the deficit?

Why target it at all? Why even address a deficit or a debt, since it's all just a withdraw from the private sector for sufficient ammo for goods and services it wishes to have. That's the real question here. Why even bother to keep track? What's the point?
 
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Are we going to settle debt by selling China a national park?

This seems to be the OP's prevailing thought process, yes. The problem is, that "public" assets are just that and hence not for sale.

We agree. I thank you for your support.

Now that we agree that public policy should not be based on analogies with businesses and households, how would you choose a target for the deficit?

Why target it at all? Why even address a deficit or a debt, since it's all just a withdraw from the private sector for sufficient ammo for goods and services it wishes to have. That's the real question here. Why even bother to keep track? What's the point?

liberals like debt because it makes it easier to pay for crippling welfare entitlements

conservatives don't like debt because it is irresponsible and because it makes it easier for liberals to pay for crippling welfrare entitlements.
 
Obviously the comment on the Natchez Trace Parkway was a point of personal privilege making an example. If you have never driven it, you have missed one of the true jewels of the National Park Service.

I think the Natchez is gorgeous... Have never driven the length of it, but do catch it in the Leiper's Fork area - beautiful drive.
 
Why target it at all? Why even address a deficit or a debt, since it's all just a withdraw from the private sector for sufficient ammo for goods and services it wishes to have. That's the real question here. Why even bother to keep track? What's the point?

Now you have me confused; not that it's all that hard to do. The OP was a discussion of what target budget deficit would be appropriate and in support of that an attack on the common analogy of governmental budgets to business and household budgets. I belong to the school that advocates a budget target meant to generate the highest level of growth (lowest rate of unemployment) consistent with a modest rate of non-accelerating inflation. We haven't gotten to why I pick this standard because I was hoping someone would propose another standard better than the zero deficit solution.

Frankly I consider the budget deficit and national debt as largely unhelpful numbers that should only marginally drive policy. The real drivers should be economic growth, efficiency, technological advancement, sustainable standard of living, reduced maldistribution, moderate inflation, adequate national defense, effective trade and foreign policy, and so on.

So the point is that the federal deficit is a proxy for the direction of fiscal policy, one of the tools available to further the goals I mentioned above, or any other set of economic goals posited. If the goal is to conquer the world or making the planet incapable of sustaining life, then economic theory should be a method of efficiently achieving those results.

I expect everyone interested in this forum has some economic goals in mind that the budget deficit has something to do with. What kind of budget target would be most helpful in promoting the economic goals you would like to see?
 
Obviously the comment on the Natchez Trace Parkway was a point of personal privilege making an example. If you have never driven it, you have missed one of the true jewels of the National Park Service.

I think the Natchez is gorgeous... Have never driven the length of it, but do catch it in the Leiper's Fork area - beautiful drive.

I've only taken it all the way north once to Nashville. Mostly I stay on the lower half, Tupelo to Natchez. When I lived in Jackson and needed an attitude adjustment a trip along the Barnett Reservoir along the Trace did the trick. Just don't disturb the bald eagle nesting site.
 

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