Why there should be no single payer and other reform needs

FA_Q2

Gold Member
Dec 12, 2009
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Washington State
I have two major issues with an American single payer system that I wanted to discuss. One is the concept that the government is going to refine healthcare to make it cheaper and the second is the unbalance of power this would create.

I have some serious issues with the idea that the government can run the healthcare industry more efficiently then the free market does. The free market has a reason to run a tight ship; they need to turn a profit. The government does not have that motive. The government’s track record in managing finical matters is abysmal. Medicare/Medicaid – bankrupt, Post Office – Bankrupt and Social Security – Bankrupt. Remember Freddy and Fanny, done. The government has never run a program effectively and we have to pay for it. Just take a look at the defense budget; it could easily be half what it is now but it is riddled with inefficiency. Having worked with government agencies I have never seen the blatant misuse of resources anywhere else.

Another issue is the unprecedented power this give congress in the aria of health services. Right now, congress makes the rules (with influence from the insurance companies not control) and the insurance companies must make it work. With single payer, the price tag and the laws will come from the same body. That is where the so called death panels will come from. Though they are not truly death panels per sea there will be a cost analysis involved that will prohibit the use of cutting edge medical technology to save lives as well as denying care to those that may need it because of cost. Before I get flames about how this is no different from the system that we have now with insurance companies denying care, I agree totally. THE POINT THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE SAME BULLSHIT AND SINGLE PAYER IS STILL THE SAME SHIT. If you replace single payer with provisions that will prevent insurance companies from the standard deny anything you can then you have one element of true reform. I believe that any treatment a doctor believes to be required should be performed and payment received after without the chance of an insurance company to deny a claim. If a claim is obviously erroneous then the insurance company should have to go after the doctor for erroneous claims. This will stop bankruptcy from medical conditions and help weed out corrupt doctors. There is a serious conflict of interests when you put the same people that will benefit from reduced medical costs in power of what medical procedures are to be covered and what procedures are not.

I also believe one of the largest items that needs to be addressed overall is the need for people to actually pay for their minor services. This may be subsidized for VERY low incomes but for the most part should be implemented. Prices are as high as they are for two reasons – we do not pay for health care and many health services are over regulated. A good example comes to mind when my wife attempted to get her teeth cleaned without dental insurance. We called all the local dentists and tried to get quotes. NONE of the receptionists knew what the price was. THAT’S INSANE. After much waiting we got a spread of 200 to 1000 dollars for a simple cleaning. The latter dentist would go out of business for gouging if you had to pay for the services received. The price issue is not an insurance problem as many believe, it is a service one and the best way to drive those prices down is with good ‘ol competition through actually paying for your services.
Other elements I believe need to be addressed are; tort reform, pre existing conditions, the dreaded health insurance mandate (torn on this one at the moment), regulation reform and one of the most important is competition (both in insurance and in services).

That is enough for now, I may go into better detail if there is enough responses to this thread.
 
The facts are these if you choose to look at them.. We have one of the worst healthcare systems on the planet.. We have the highest infant mortality rate and people in other nations live longer, that have a single payer or government option.. Something like 95% of canadians like their healthcare.. You can't say that here.. I know, you have heard about the long lines and people dying.. Well.. All you have done is heard about them.. They aren't true.. It isn't some Canadian state secret to hide the truth about their health care.. Their healthcare is top notch and has even been spot lighted on television.. France is another one.. Again, top notch healthcare and provided by the government..

Unpresidented power?? You obviously don't know much about our government.. The Bush administration locked away and tortured innocent people.. That is unpresidented power.. You are concerned about healthcare?? Might I remind you that medicare is already government run and people love it.. If you have such little faith in our government then perhaps you should move to a differernt country.. One that doesn't provide government healthcare, since you love being puppets to the insurance companies..

I'll end this post by saying that you don't seem to know much about the issue.. Try being a patient and actually dealing with the insurance company.. Of course now that I have said that you are going to say you are.. Your first post makes it blatantly obvious that you aren't and you haven't..

There were no death panels.. That was a lie, but more evidence you don't know the issue.. Please do some research.. Grab a few pamplets from different insurance companies and compare coverage.. Realistically they should all be the same.. Healthcare is healthcare.. Read the fine print and disacover how you can be cut from coverage for reasons other than not paying your bill.. The bill that was voted on is also on the internet.. Feel free to read it and discover for yourself..

As for the public option?? Insurance won this round.. Hopefully the people of America will win the next..

My question is why are you argueing against what is best for the people of this nation.. And it is what is best.. That has been proven time and time again in other nations.. There is no desputing it.. It is proven to work and work well.. French and Canadians are not dying secretly because of their healthcare system..
 
The facts are these if you choose to look at them.. We have one of the worst healthcare systems on the planet.. We have the highest infant mortality rate and people in other nations live longer, that have a single payer or government option.. Something like 95% of canadians like their healthcare.. You can't say that here.. I know, you have heard about the long lines and people dying.. Well.. All you have done is heard about them.. They aren't true.. It isn't some Canadian state secret to hide the truth about their health care.. Their healthcare is top notch and has even been spot lighted on television.. France is another one.. Again, top notch healthcare and provided by the government..

Unpresidented power?? You obviously don't know much about our government.. The Bush administration locked away and tortured innocent people.. That is unpresidented power.. You are concerned about healthcare?? Might I remind you that medicare is already government run and people love it.. If you have such little faith in our government then perhaps you should move to a differernt country.. One that doesn't provide government healthcare, since you love being puppets to the insurance companies..

I'll end this post by saying that you don't seem to know much about the issue.. Try being a patient and actually dealing with the insurance company.. Of course now that I have said that you are going to say you are.. Your first post makes it blatantly obvious that you aren't and you haven't..

There were no death panels.. That was a lie, but more evidence you don't know the issue.. Please do some research.. Grab a few pamplets from different insurance companies and compare coverage.. Realistically they should all be the same.. Healthcare is healthcare.. Read the fine print and disacover how you can be cut from coverage for reasons other than not paying your bill.. The bill that was voted on is also on the internet.. Feel free to read it and discover for yourself..

As for the public option?? Insurance won this round.. Hopefully the people of America will win the next..

My question is why are you argueing against what is best for the people of this nation.. And it is what is best.. That has been proven time and time again in other nations.. There is no desputing it.. It is proven to work and work well.. French and Canadians are not dying secretly because of their healthcare system..

I am with the republicans. There is nothing wrong with the system now, and we should continue allowing over 40k AMERICANS to die next year.

The system works people, we should not change the greatest health care system in the world. I heard that on Rush's show. :doubt:

It really is the greatest system in the world if you have rush money. The other 99% percent of us, not so much.
 
Apparently you did not read my post. I never said we did not need reform, I said that reform should not be in the form of a single payer system. For one, What works somewhere else does not mean that system will work here.
The facts are these if you choose to look at them.. We have one of the worst healthcare systems on the planet.. We have the highest infant mortality rate and people in other nations live longer, that have a single payer or government option..
That is NOT a function of our health insurance. It is all the same with single payer advocates. HOW is a single payer system going to change any of that. Our life expectancy is a function of a lack of preventative care and our weight not our insurance system.
Something like 95% of canadians like their healthcare.. You can't say that here.. I know, you have heard about the long lines and people dying.. Well.. All you have done is heard about them.. They aren't true.. It isn't some Canadian state secret to hide the truth about their health care.. Their healthcare is top notch and has even been spot lighted on television.. France is another one.. Again, top notch healthcare and provided by the government..
Link? It is true that most Canadians are happy with their care though I think the number is closer to 70% but I really don’t care how many Canadians are happy with their care. Fact is, I don’t think Americans would be that happy with Canadian type care. Americans are Never 70% happy with anything :) I do not see how their complacency with their care has anything to do with where our care needs to go.
Unpresidented power?? You obviously don't know much about our government.. The Bush administration locked away and tortured innocent people.. That is unpresidented power..
And that has what to do with healthcare? Bush hatred will not solve our healthcare issues. Stay on topic.
You are concerned about healthcare?? Might I remind you that medicare is already government run and people love it.. If you have such little faith in our government then perhaps you should move to a differernt country.. One that doesn't provide government healthcare, since you love being puppets to the insurance companies..

I'll end this post by saying that you don't seem to know much about the issue.. Try being a patient and actually dealing with the insurance company.. Of course now that I have said that you are going to say you are.. Your first post makes it blatantly obvious that you aren't and you haven't..

There were no death panels.. That was a lie, but more evidence you don't know the issue.. Please do some research.. Grab a few pamplets from different insurance companies and compare coverage.. Realistically they should all be the same.. Healthcare is healthcare.. Read the fine print and disacover how you can be cut from coverage for reasons other than not paying your bill.. The bill that was voted on is also on the internet.. Feel free to read it and discover for yourself..

As for the public option?? Insurance won this round.. Hopefully the people of America will win the next..

My question is why are you argueing against what is best for the people of this nation.. And it is what is best.. That has been proven time and time again in other nations.. There is no desputing it.. It is proven to work and work well.. French and Canadians are not dying secretly because of their healthcare system..

I have no faith in this government in running things it is NOT SUPPOSED to run. Our government and all its flaws is still the greatest one on the planet and its powers are specifically set out in the constitution. If you do not like that then you can take your own advice here and move to another country. I specifically mentioned how death panels were not in any bill but how the EXACT same effect is going to be achieved through a rationing of care. Talks of this happening are going on in our government as we speak under the guise of “cost effectiveness.” I fear any move to reduce people into hard numbers as that leaves little in the way of flexibility. Your right, insurance did win this round and I too hope Americans will win the next. If single payer comes into the picture I believe that government will win and Americans will still loose. Of course, true reform is unlikely but one can always hope.

I like how you pointed out people are happy with Medicare as I have not met one person that is truly happy with Medicare services AND Medicare is still going broke. How is this a good example? The heart of the problem lies in the fact that we need MEDICAL reform not insurance reform. How does insurance reform reduce cost? The problem is it does not. Single payer is eclipsing the true issues and forcing real reform out of the picture. The problem lies with the direct cost of procedures and that NEEDS to be addressed through a comprehensive rework of regulations and healthy competition.

Again, I resent the patronizing idea that I am not involved or familiar with these issues. I have a 3 year old son undergoing chemotherapy treatments for Common ALL CNS leukemia, I know god damn well we need meaningful reform. Unfortunately, many of the drugs and treatments that have brought my son back from the brink of death would have been unavailable in a single payer system as they are not well established enough or “cost effective.” And yes, we have received care internationally as well and I can say that here we have received the best and most comprehensive care. In many of those other countries you continually wish to model our care after “choice” is a thing of the past and care is given in the form of a flowchart – here is where you are and here is what we are going to do for you period. No thanks, I do not want any part of that whatsoever.

Now I would like a meaningful debate here, please bring up some points other that “you don’t know what you are talking about and I hate Bush.” I would truly like to believe in a single payer system as it would greatly benefit someone in my position but I have yet to see any coherent arguments for it.
 
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I have no faith in this government in running things it is NOT SUPPOSED to run.

That is all you need to read.. Move then to another country.. I mean if you have no faith in our government.. Move!! We don't want people like you here in this nation..

As foir whether or not it is or isn't supposed to run something.. Careing for and protecting the people is the primarry function of government..

As for the rest.. Your a moron.. But believe what you want.. You will anyways..

Infant mortality isn't health care?? LOL keep telling yourself that..
 
^ misquoting me and putting forth NO debate is counterproductive. If you do not want to debate or put a valid point in the DON’T GO TO A DEBATE/DISCUSSION FORUM.
 
How does insurance reform reduce cost? The problem is it does not. Single payer is eclipsing the true issues and forcing real reform out of the picture. The problem lies with the direct cost of procedures and that NEEDS to be addressed through a comprehensive rework of regulations and healthy competition.

Ouch!!! That must have hurt!! [when you fell off the turnip truck].:doubt:
 
^ misquoting me and putting forth NO debate is counterproductive. If you do not want to debate or put a valid point in the DON’T GO TO A DEBATE/DISCUSSION FORUM.

I didn't misquote you and I gave you the facts.. You chose not to listen to them.. So don't talk to me about debate..

You can't offer a single factual arguement against a single payer or public option.. You simply can't.. Healthcare for profit will never work.. It shouldn't be for profit.. The current state of our healthcare is all the evidence you need to prove my point..

Denying coverage due to a pre-existing condition?? Only a for profit company would care about such a thing..

You want a debate?? Not until you help yourself to a healthy dose of reality and some facts.. Right now you lack both!!
 
The facts are these if you choose to look at them.. We have one of the worst healthcare systems on the planet.. We have the highest infant mortality rate

What?

List by the United Nations Population Division

Rank Country or territory Infant mortality rate
(deaths/1,000 live births) Under-five mortality rate
(deaths/1,000 live births) 1
22px-Flag_of_Iceland.svg.png
Iceland 2.9 3.9 2
22px-Flag_of_Singapore.svg.png
Singapore 3.0 4.1 3
22px-Flag_of_Japan.svg.png
Japan 3.2 4.2 4
22px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png
Sweden 3.2 4.0 5
22px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png
Norway 3.3 4.4 6
22px-Flag_of_Hong_Kong.svg.png
Hong Kong 3.7 4.7 7
22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png
Finland 3.7 4.7 8
22px-Flag_of_the_Czech_Republic.svg.png
Czech Republic 3.8 4.8 9
20px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png
Switzerland 4.1 5.1 10
22px-Flag_of_South_Korea.svg.png
South Korea 4.1 4.8 11
22px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png
Belgium 4.2 5.3 12
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
France 4.2 5.2 13
22px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png
Spain 4.2 5.3 14
22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany 4.3 5.4 15
22px-Flag_of_Denmark.svg.png
Denmark 4.4 5.8 16
22px-Flag_of_Austria.svg.png
Austria 4.4 5.4 17
22px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png
Australia 4.4 5.6 18
22px-Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg.png
Luxembourg 4.5 6.6 19
22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands 4.7 5.9 20
22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png
Israel 4.7 5.7 21
22px-Flag_of_Slovenia.svg.png
Slovenia 4.8 6.4 22
22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
United Kingdom 4.8 6.0 23
22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png
Canada 4.8 5.9 24
22px-Flag_of_Ireland.svg.png
Ireland 4.9 6.2 25
22px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png
Italy 5.0 6.1 26
22px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png
Portugal 5.0 6.6 27
22px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png
New Zealand 5.0 6.4 28
22px-Flag_of_Cuba.svg.png
Cuba 5.1 6.5 29 Channel Islands (
22px-Flag_of_Jersey.svg.png
Jersey and
22px-Flag_of_Guernsey.svg.png
Guernsey) 5.2 6.2 30
22px-Flag_of_Brunei.svg.png
Brunei 5.5 6.7 31
22px-Flag_of_Cyprus.svg.png
Cyprus 5.9 6.9 32
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
New Caledonia 6.1 8.7 33
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States 6.3 7.8

List by the CIA World Factbook
(all 2009 estimates)

Rank Country or territory Infant mortality rate
(deaths/1,000 live births) 1
22px-Flag_of_Singapore.svg.png
Singapore 2.31 2
22px-Flag_of_Bermuda.svg.png
Bermuda 2.46 3
22px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png
Sweden 2.75 4
22px-Flag_of_Japan.svg.png
Japan 2.79 5
22px-Flag_of_Hong_Kong.svg.png
Hong Kong 2.92 6
22px-Flag_of_Macau.svg.png
Macau 3.22 7
22px-Flag_of_Iceland.svg.png
Iceland 3.23 8
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
France 3.33 9
22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png
Finland 3.47 10
22px-Flag_of_Anguilla.svg.png
Anguilla 3.52 11
22px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png
Norway 3.58 12
22px-Flag_of_Malta.svg.png
Malta 3.75 13
22px-Flag_of_Andorra.svg.png
Andorra 3.76 14
22px-Flag_of_the_Czech_Republic.svg.png
Czech Republic 3.79 15
22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany 3.99 16
20px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png
Switzerland 4.18 17
22px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png
Spain 4.21 18
22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png
Israel 4.22 19
22px-Flag_of_Slovenia.svg.png
Slovenia 4.25 20
22px-Flag_of_Liechtenstein.svg.png
Liechtenstein 4.25 21
22px-Flag_of_South_Korea.svg.png
South Korea 4.26 22
22px-Flag_of_Denmark.svg.png
Denmark 4.34 23
22px-Flag_of_Austria.svg.png
Austria 4.42 24
22px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png
Belgium 4.44 25
22px-Flag_of_Guernsey.svg.png
Guernsey 4.47 26
22px-Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg.png
Luxembourg 4.56 27
22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands 4.73 28
22px-Flag_of_Jersey.svg.png
Jersey 4.73 29
22px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png
Australia 4.75 30
22px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png
Portugal 4.78 31
22px-Flag_of_Gibraltar.svg.png
Gibraltar 4.83 32
22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
United Kingdom 4.85 33
22px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png
New Zealand 4.92 34
22px-Flag_of_Monaco.svg.png
Monaco 5.00 35
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
Wallis and Futuna 5.02 36
22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png
Canada 5.04 37
22px-Flag_of_Ireland.svg.png
Ireland 5.05 38
22px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png
Greece 5.16 39
22px-Flag_of_San_Marino.svg.png
San Marino 5.34 40
22px-Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg.png
Taiwan 5.35 41
22px-Flag_of_the_Isle_of_Man.svg.png
Isle of Man 5.37 42
22px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png
Italy 5.51 43
22px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png
European Union 5.72 44
22px-Flag_of_Cuba.svg.png
Cuba 5.82 45
22px-Flag_of_Guam.svg.png
Guam 6.05 46
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States 6.26

List of countries by infant mortality rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
and people in other nations live longer,
Rank Country (State/territory) Life expectancy at birth (years)
Overall Life expectancy at birth (years)
Male Life expectancy at birth (years)
Female 1
22px-Flag_of_Japan.svg.png
Japan 82.6 79.0 86.1 2
22px-Flag_of_Hong_Kong.svg.png
Hong Kong (
22px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png
PRC) 82.2 79.4 85.1 3
22px-Flag_of_Iceland.svg.png
Iceland 81.8 80.2 83.3 4
20px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png
Switzerland 81.7 79.0 84.2 5
22px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png
Australia 81.2 78.9 83.6 6
22px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png
Spain 80.9 77.7 84.2 7
22px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png
Sweden 80.9 78.7 83.0 8
22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png
Israel 80.7 78.5 82.8 9
22px-Flag_of_Macau.svg.png
Macau (
22px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png
PRC) 80.7 78.5 82.8 10
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
France (metropolitan) 80.7 77.1 84.1 11
22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png
Canada (20% above world average) 80.7 78.3 82.9 12
22px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png
Italy 80.5 77.5 83.5 13
22px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png
New Zealand 80.2 78.2 82.2 14
22px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png
Norway 80.2 77.8 82.5 15
22px-Flag_of_Singapore.svg.png
Singapore 80.0 78.0 81.9 16
22px-Flag_of_Austria.svg.png
Austria 79.8 76.9 82.6 17
22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands 79.8 77.5 81.9 18
22px-Flag_of_Martinique.svg.png
Martinique (
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
France) 79.5 76.5 82.3 19
22px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png
Greece 79.5 77.1 81.9 20
22px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png
Belgium 79.4 76.5 82.3 21
22px-Flag_of_Malta.svg.png
Malta 79.4 77.3 81.3 22
22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
United Kingdom 79.4 77.2 81.6 23
22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany 79.4 76.5 82.1 24
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States_Virgin_Islands.svg.png
U.S. Virgin Islands (
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
US) 79.4 75.5 83.3 25
22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png
Finland 79.3 76.1 82.4 26
22px-Flag_of_Guadeloupe_%28local%29.svg.png
Guadeloupe (
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
France) 79.2 76.0 82.2 27 Channel Islands (
22px-Flag_of_Jersey.svg.png
Jersey and
22px-Flag_of_Guernsey.svg.png
Guernsey) (
22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
UK) 79.0 76.6 81.5 28
22px-Flag_of_Cyprus.svg.png
Cyprus 79.0 76.5 81.6 29
22px-Flag_of_Ireland.svg.png
Ireland 78.9 76.5 81.3 30
22px-Flag_of_Costa_Rica.svg.png
Costa Rica 78.8 76.5 81.2 31
22px-Flag_of_Puerto_Rico.svg.png
Puerto Rico (
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
US) 78.7 74.7 82.7 32
22px-Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg.png
Luxembourg 78.7 75.7 81.6 33
22px-Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Emirates.svg.png
United Arab Emirates 78.7 77.2 81.5 34
22px-Flag_of_South_Korea.svg.png
South Korea 78.6 75.0 82.2 35
22px-Flag_of_Chile.svg.png
Chile 78.6 75.5 81.5 36
22px-Flag_of_Denmark.svg.png
Denmark 78.3 76.0 80.6 37
22px-Flag_of_Cuba.svg.png
Cuba 78.3 76.2 80.4 38
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States 78.2 75.6 80.8
 
List by the CIA World Factbook (2009 estimates)


CIA World Factbook 2009 Estimates for Life Expectancy at birth (years). over 80 77.5-80 75-77.5 72.5-75 70-72.5 67.5-70 65-67.5 60-65 55-60 50-55 45-50 40-45 under 40 not available


Rank by
UN member
state Rank by
entity Entity Overall life expectancy at birth Male life expectancy at birth Female life expectancy at birth - 1
22px-Flag_of_Macau.svg.png
Macau (
22px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png
China) 84.36 81.39 87.47 1 2
22px-Flag_of_Andorra.svg.png
Andorra 82.51 80.33 84.84 2 3
22px-Flag_of_Japan.svg.png
Japan 82.12 78.8 85.62 3 4
22px-Flag_of_Singapore.svg.png
Singapore 81.98 79.37 84.78 4 5
22px-Flag_of_San_Marino.svg.png
San Marino 81.97 78.53 85.72 - 6
22px-Flag_of_Hong_Kong.svg.png
Hong Kong (
22px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png
China) 81.86 79.16 84.79 5 7
22px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png
Australia 81.63 79.25 84.14 6 8
22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png
Canada 81.23 78.69 83.91 7 9
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
France (metropolitan) 80.98 77.79 84.33 8 10
22px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png
Sweden 80.86 78.59 83.26 9 11
20px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png
Switzerland 80.85 78.03 83.83 - 12
22px-Flag_of_Guernsey.svg.png
Guernsey 80.77 77.76 83.88 10 13
22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png
Israel 80.73 78.62 82.95 11 14
22px-Flag_of_Iceland.svg.png
Iceland 80.67 78.53 82.9
15
22px-Flag_of_Anguilla.svg.png
Anguilla 80.65 78.11 83.26
16
22px-Flag_of_the_Cayman_Islands.svg.png
Cayman Islands 80.44 77.2 83.72
17
22px-Flag_of_Bermuda.svg.png
Bermuda 80.43 80.65 83.26 12 18
22px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png
New Zealand 80.36 78.43 82.39 13 19
22px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png
Italy 80.2 77.26 83.33
20
22px-Flag_of_Gibraltar.svg.png
Gibraltar 80.19 77.3 83.22 14 21
22px-Flag_of_Monaco.svg.png
Monaco 80.09 76.3 84.09 15 22
22px-Flag_of_Liechtenstein.svg.png
Liechtenstein 80.06 76.59 83.53 16 23
22px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png
Spain 80.05 76.74 83.57 17 24
22px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png
Norway 79.95 77.29 82.74
25
22px-Flag_of_Jersey.svg.png
Jersey 79.75 77.23 82.46 18 26
22px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png
Greece 79.66 77.11 82.37 19 27
22px-Flag_of_Austria.svg.png
Austria 79.5 76.6 82.56
28
22px-Flag_of_the_Faroe_Islands.svg.png
Faroe Islands 79.44 77 82.05 20 29
22px-Flag_of_Malta.svg.png
Malta 79.44 76.95 81.47 21 30
22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands 79.4 76.8 82.14 22 31
22px-Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg.png
Luxembourg 79.33 76.07 82.81 23 32
22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany 79.26 76.26 82.42 24 33
22px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png
Belgium 79.22 76.06 82.53
34
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
Saint Pierre and Miquelon 79.07 76.69 81.57
35
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States_Virgin_Islands.svg.png
U.S. Virgin Islands 79.05 76.02 82.26 25 36
22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
United Kingdom 79.01 76.52 81.63 26 37
22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png
Finland 78.97 75.48 82.61 27 38
22px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
Jordan 78.87 76.34 81.56
39
22px-Flag_of_the_Isle_of_Man.svg.png
Isle of Man 78.82 75.86 81.93 28 40
22px-Flag_of_South_Korea.svg.png
South Korea 78.72 77.45 82.22
41
22px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png
European Union 78.67 75.54 81.97
42
22px-Flag_of_Puerto_Rico.svg.png
Puerto Rico (
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
US) 78.53 74.85 82.39 29 43
22px-Flag_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg.png
Bosnia and Herzegovina 78.5 74.92 82.34
44
22px-Flag_of_Saint_Helena.svg.png
Saint Helena 78.44 75.52 81.5 30 45
22px-Flag_of_Cyprus.svg.png
Cyprus 78.33 75.91 80.86 31 46
22px-Flag_of_Denmark.svg.png
Denmark 78.3 75.96 80.78 32 47
22px-Flag_of_Ireland.svg.png
Ireland 78.24 75.6 81.06 33 48
22px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png
Portugal 78.21 74.95 81.69
49
22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
Wallis and Futuna 78.2 75.22 81.32 34 50
22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States 78.11 75.65 80.69

List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Something like 95% of canadians like their healthcare.. You can't say that here..
Source?

One-fourth of American respondents are either "very" or "somewhat" satisfied with "the availability of affordable healthcare in the nation," (6% very satisfied and 19% somewhat satisfied). This level of satisfaction is significantly lower than in Canada, where 57% are satisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, including 16% who are very satisfied. Roughly 4 in 10 Britons are satisfied (43%), but only 7% say they are very satisfied (similar to the percentage very satisfied in the United States).
Healthcare System Ratings: U.S., Great Britain, Canada

Are Canadians paying to treat illegals?

. If you have such little faith in our government then perhaps you should move to a differernt country.
You seem to have a very different image of our government than those who founded it.
. One that doesn't provide government healthcare, since you love being puppets to the insurance companies..
Requiring people to buy health care insurance is being a puppet to the insurance companies.
I'll end this post by saying that you don't seem to know much about the issue.
:eusa_eh:


See above
 
You can't offer a single factual arguement against a single payer or public option.. You simply can't..

You really want the idiots in Congress running your healthcare?
Healthcare for profit will never work..

We're discussing for-profit insurance, not for-profit medicine. Do remember that many medical advancements have been made because someone saw the potential to make a profit. Medicine is very costly, and research even more so. Most of humanity will not seek to advance medicine out of concern for other humans any more than most people will volunteer to build a road without pay to improve the overall condition of humanity/their civilization.

Snap out of your utopia; we have to base our plans in reality.
Denying coverage due to a pre-existing condition?? Only a for profit company would care about such a thing..

Incorrect. Any system would, because you always have to determine whether you can afford the resources to treat a single person when the same resources can be used to treat multiple persons without a preexisting condition. This will always be a concern, so long as resources are a limited thing.
You want a debate?? Not until you help yourself to a healthy dose of reality and some facts
Like your delusion of Man as being some all-caring and selfless race and your 'facts' about infant mortality rates, which I showed to be incorrect earlier in the thread?
 
I believe that emergency medical care (eg: broken bones, gunshot wounds, automotive accident) and basic preventative medicine (yearly physicals, vaccinations for common diseases that might otherwise ravage our nation) should be freely available to everyone. The question becomes a matter of just how much of what kinds of care should be provided by the State. While everyone would love to live in a magical fairyland with infinite wealth, selfless researchers, and competent and honest politicians, I don't want my loved one's cancer treatment being subject to the hackery in D.C.

Let the people decide for themselves at the state/local level whether they wish to implement centralized medicine. Using the Fed to force people to buy insurance from the companies who own the congressmen is not going to help the People.
 
I have no faith in this government in running things it is NOT SUPPOSED to run.

That is all you need to read.. Move then to another country.. I mean if you have no faith in our government.. Move!! We don't want people like you here in this nation..

As foir whether or not it is or isn't supposed to run something.. Careing for and protecting the people is the primarry function of government..

As for the rest.. Your a moron.. But believe what you want.. You will anyways..

Infant mortality isn't health care?? LOL keep telling yourself that..

Who the fuck are you to tell other people to move?

And since when has it been the government's role to 'care for' the people? You are one dumb fuck.

Oh, and it's 'caring', not 'careing' - stupid fucking cretin... Pity the government does such a crap job at educating it's sheep.
 
I have no faith in this government in running things it is NOT SUPPOSED to run.

That is all you need to read.. Move then to another country.. I mean if you have no faith in our government.. Move!! We don't want people like you here in this nation..

As foir whether or not it is or isn't supposed to run something.. Careing for and protecting the people is the primarry function of government..

As for the rest.. Your a moron.. But believe what you want.. You will anyways..

Infant mortality isn't health care?? LOL keep telling yourself that..

Who the fuck are you to tell other people to move?

And since when has it been the government's role to 'care for' the people? You are one dumb fuck.

Oh, and it's 'caring', not 'careing' - stupid fucking cretin... Pity the government does such a crap job at educating it's sheep.

You want a job as my spell checker so you can correct my typos??

I didn't think so.. So STFU!
 
☭proletarian☭;1846818 said:
We're discussing for-profit insurance, not for-profit medicine. Do remember that many medical advancements have been made because someone saw the potential to make a profit. Medicine is very costly, and research even more so. Most of humanity will not seek to advance medicine out of concern for other humans any more than most people will volunteer to build a road without pay to improve the overall condition of humanity/their civilization.

Ummm... No we are discussing for profit healthcare.. Try not to cloud the issue.. Nothing about our healthcare system should be for profit.. And yes.. I would love the government handling my healthcare.. You are lying to yourself if you say we are talking about profit insurance.. Because we are not.. You have a surgery and the insurance company dictates how long you are in the hospital.. The insurance company can dictate if you get a certian procedure or not.. You tell me how this isn't health care?? You are simply lying to yourself..

The real question is why do you want some fat cat making $102,000 dollars an hour handling yours?? That is what the CEO of United Healthcare makes.. Or used to makes as he was endicted for fraud and pushed out of is position.. In either case.. Why would you want that in charge of your health care?? Why would you want any for profit company in charge of you health?? They are there to make money.. They do that by not paying for your healthcare needs and looking for any excuse not to pay.. IE. pre-existing conditions..

As for all your statistics?? Ummm.. Yeah.. Ok.. Last among industrialized nations.. Is that better?? In either case!! We suck!!! The status quo isn't good enough.. Isreal that has to deal with constant terrorism is kicking our ass.. Cuba is kicking our ass.. A small tiny island..

If these things don't bother you then you are the one with the issue.. My facts stand and thank you for making my point..

Ok CA. Girl.. Feel free to check for typos.. You seem to get a rise out of it and using it as a means to call someone stupid or other such names.. Like you have never had a typo in your life.. By the way.. I like your super hero avatar better..
 
You can't offer a single factual arguement against a single payer or public option.. You simply can't.. Healthcare for profit will never work.. It shouldn't be for profit.. The current state of our healthcare is all the evidence you need to prove my point..

Denying coverage due to a pre-existing condition?? Only a for profit company would care about such a thing..

You want a debate?? Not until you help yourself to a healthy dose of reality and some facts.. Right now you lack both!!
Yes I have. It is a FACT that the programs I have listed have gone bankrupt. It is a FACT that the US government is inefficient when concerning funds. You have yet to give 1 single fact that supports single payer. The only thing you have done is point to another country and say it works over there. Unfortunately, as I have seen on many other threads, if I fall into the trap of showing you how obviously it is NOT working in many of those countries all I will get from you is how that is a false argument because we are not copying their system but making our own. So tell me what you think is so wonderful about single payer? I have said what NEEDS to change regardless of a single payer system or not and why a single payer system is a bad idea.
As already pointed out, it is not our healthcare that causes Americans to an early grave, it is our lifestyle. Infant mortality is another case of skewing the facts without understanding them. Our higher rate may actually be a condition of our BETTER CARE because we birth (and save many) babies who have not reached term and/or have an extremely low birth weight that other nations call stillbirths or abortions. Our preemie rate is higher but, again, mostly due to our lifestyle. Diet, activity, pregnancy drugs, artificial insemination and many illnesses like diabetes and heart disease (both incredibly high in this country) will all significantly raise the chance of a premature baby. THAT is what is causing our infant death rate to be so high.
http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/why-is-the-u-s-infant-mortality-rate-so-high/
Why the US Infant Mortality Rate is So High - Baby - Families.com
America's real infant-mortality problem. - By Darshak Sanghavi - Slate Magazine
 

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