Why there should be no single payer and other reform needs

Discussion in 'Healthcare/Insurance/Govt Healthcare' started by FA_Q2, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    I have two major issues with an American single payer system that I wanted to discuss. One is the concept that the government is going to refine healthcare to make it cheaper and the second is the unbalance of power this would create.

    I have some serious issues with the idea that the government can run the healthcare industry more efficiently then the free market does. The free market has a reason to run a tight ship; they need to turn a profit. The government does not have that motive. The government’s track record in managing finical matters is abysmal. Medicare/Medicaid – bankrupt, Post Office – Bankrupt and Social Security – Bankrupt. Remember Freddy and Fanny, done. The government has never run a program effectively and we have to pay for it. Just take a look at the defense budget; it could easily be half what it is now but it is riddled with inefficiency. Having worked with government agencies I have never seen the blatant misuse of resources anywhere else.

    Another issue is the unprecedented power this give congress in the aria of health services. Right now, congress makes the rules (with influence from the insurance companies not control) and the insurance companies must make it work. With single payer, the price tag and the laws will come from the same body. That is where the so called death panels will come from. Though they are not truly death panels per sea there will be a cost analysis involved that will prohibit the use of cutting edge medical technology to save lives as well as denying care to those that may need it because of cost. Before I get flames about how this is no different from the system that we have now with insurance companies denying care, I agree totally. THE POINT THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THE SAME BULLSHIT AND SINGLE PAYER IS STILL THE SAME SHIT. If you replace single payer with provisions that will prevent insurance companies from the standard deny anything you can then you have one element of true reform. I believe that any treatment a doctor believes to be required should be performed and payment received after without the chance of an insurance company to deny a claim. If a claim is obviously erroneous then the insurance company should have to go after the doctor for erroneous claims. This will stop bankruptcy from medical conditions and help weed out corrupt doctors. There is a serious conflict of interests when you put the same people that will benefit from reduced medical costs in power of what medical procedures are to be covered and what procedures are not.

    I also believe one of the largest items that needs to be addressed overall is the need for people to actually pay for their minor services. This may be subsidized for VERY low incomes but for the most part should be implemented. Prices are as high as they are for two reasons – we do not pay for health care and many health services are over regulated. A good example comes to mind when my wife attempted to get her teeth cleaned without dental insurance. We called all the local dentists and tried to get quotes. NONE of the receptionists knew what the price was. THAT’S INSANE. After much waiting we got a spread of 200 to 1000 dollars for a simple cleaning. The latter dentist would go out of business for gouging if you had to pay for the services received. The price issue is not an insurance problem as many believe, it is a service one and the best way to drive those prices down is with good ‘ol competition through actually paying for your services.
    Other elements I believe need to be addressed are; tort reform, pre existing conditions, the dreaded health insurance mandate (torn on this one at the moment), regulation reform and one of the most important is competition (both in insurance and in services).

    That is enough for now, I may go into better detail if there is enough responses to this thread.
     
  2. MajikMyst
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    MajikMyst Honorary Non-member

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    The facts are these if you choose to look at them.. We have one of the worst healthcare systems on the planet.. We have the highest infant mortality rate and people in other nations live longer, that have a single payer or government option.. Something like 95% of canadians like their healthcare.. You can't say that here.. I know, you have heard about the long lines and people dying.. Well.. All you have done is heard about them.. They aren't true.. It isn't some Canadian state secret to hide the truth about their health care.. Their healthcare is top notch and has even been spot lighted on television.. France is another one.. Again, top notch healthcare and provided by the government..

    Unpresidented power?? You obviously don't know much about our government.. The Bush administration locked away and tortured innocent people.. That is unpresidented power.. You are concerned about healthcare?? Might I remind you that medicare is already government run and people love it.. If you have such little faith in our government then perhaps you should move to a differernt country.. One that doesn't provide government healthcare, since you love being puppets to the insurance companies..

    I'll end this post by saying that you don't seem to know much about the issue.. Try being a patient and actually dealing with the insurance company.. Of course now that I have said that you are going to say you are.. Your first post makes it blatantly obvious that you aren't and you haven't..

    There were no death panels.. That was a lie, but more evidence you don't know the issue.. Please do some research.. Grab a few pamplets from different insurance companies and compare coverage.. Realistically they should all be the same.. Healthcare is healthcare.. Read the fine print and disacover how you can be cut from coverage for reasons other than not paying your bill.. The bill that was voted on is also on the internet.. Feel free to read it and discover for yourself..

    As for the public option?? Insurance won this round.. Hopefully the people of America will win the next..

    My question is why are you argueing against what is best for the people of this nation.. And it is what is best.. That has been proven time and time again in other nations.. There is no desputing it.. It is proven to work and work well.. French and Canadians are not dying secretly because of their healthcare system..
     
  3. Zona
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    Zona A guy in ariZONA

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    I am with the republicans. There is nothing wrong with the system now, and we should continue allowing over 40k AMERICANS to die next year.

    The system works people, we should not change the greatest health care system in the world. I heard that on Rush's show. :doubt:

    It really is the greatest system in the world if you have rush money. The other 99% percent of us, not so much.
     
  4. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    Apparently you did not read my post. I never said we did not need reform, I said that reform should not be in the form of a single payer system. For one, What works somewhere else does not mean that system will work here.
    That is NOT a function of our health insurance. It is all the same with single payer advocates. HOW is a single payer system going to change any of that. Our life expectancy is a function of a lack of preventative care and our weight not our insurance system.
    Link? It is true that most Canadians are happy with their care though I think the number is closer to 70% but I really don’t care how many Canadians are happy with their care. Fact is, I don’t think Americans would be that happy with Canadian type care. Americans are Never 70% happy with anything :) I do not see how their complacency with their care has anything to do with where our care needs to go.
    And that has what to do with healthcare? Bush hatred will not solve our healthcare issues. Stay on topic.
    I have no faith in this government in running things it is NOT SUPPOSED to run. Our government and all its flaws is still the greatest one on the planet and its powers are specifically set out in the constitution. If you do not like that then you can take your own advice here and move to another country. I specifically mentioned how death panels were not in any bill but how the EXACT same effect is going to be achieved through a rationing of care. Talks of this happening are going on in our government as we speak under the guise of “cost effectiveness.” I fear any move to reduce people into hard numbers as that leaves little in the way of flexibility. Your right, insurance did win this round and I too hope Americans will win the next. If single payer comes into the picture I believe that government will win and Americans will still loose. Of course, true reform is unlikely but one can always hope.

    I like how you pointed out people are happy with Medicare as I have not met one person that is truly happy with Medicare services AND Medicare is still going broke. How is this a good example? The heart of the problem lies in the fact that we need MEDICAL reform not insurance reform. How does insurance reform reduce cost? The problem is it does not. Single payer is eclipsing the true issues and forcing real reform out of the picture. The problem lies with the direct cost of procedures and that NEEDS to be addressed through a comprehensive rework of regulations and healthy competition.

    Again, I resent the patronizing idea that I am not involved or familiar with these issues. I have a 3 year old son undergoing chemotherapy treatments for Common ALL CNS leukemia, I know god damn well we need meaningful reform. Unfortunately, many of the drugs and treatments that have brought my son back from the brink of death would have been unavailable in a single payer system as they are not well established enough or “cost effective.” And yes, we have received care internationally as well and I can say that here we have received the best and most comprehensive care. In many of those other countries you continually wish to model our care after “choice” is a thing of the past and care is given in the form of a flowchart – here is where you are and here is what we are going to do for you period. No thanks, I do not want any part of that whatsoever.

    Now I would like a meaningful debate here, please bring up some points other that “you don’t know what you are talking about and I hate Bush.” I would truly like to believe in a single payer system as it would greatly benefit someone in my position but I have yet to see any coherent arguments for it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2009
  5. MajikMyst
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    MajikMyst Honorary Non-member

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    That is all you need to read.. Move then to another country.. I mean if you have no faith in our government.. Move!! We don't want people like you here in this nation..

    As foir whether or not it is or isn't supposed to run something.. Careing for and protecting the people is the primarry function of government..

    As for the rest.. Your a moron.. But believe what you want.. You will anyways..

    Infant mortality isn't health care?? LOL keep telling yourself that..
     
  6. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    ^ misquoting me and putting forth NO debate is counterproductive. If you do not want to debate or put a valid point in the DON’T GO TO A DEBATE/DISCUSSION FORUM.
     
  7. veritas
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    veritas OBKB

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    Ouch!!! That must have hurt!! [when you fell off the turnip truck].:doubt:
     
  8. MajikMyst
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    MajikMyst Honorary Non-member

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    I didn't misquote you and I gave you the facts.. You chose not to listen to them.. So don't talk to me about debate..

    You can't offer a single factual arguement against a single payer or public option.. You simply can't.. Healthcare for profit will never work.. It shouldn't be for profit.. The current state of our healthcare is all the evidence you need to prove my point..

    Denying coverage due to a pre-existing condition?? Only a for profit company would care about such a thing..

    You want a debate?? Not until you help yourself to a healthy dose of reality and some facts.. Right now you lack both!!
     
  9. ☭proletarian☭
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    ☭proletarian☭ Guest

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    What?

    List by the United Nations Population Division

    Rank [​IMG] Country or territory [​IMG] Infant mortality rate
    (deaths/1,000 live births) [​IMG] Under-five mortality rate
    (deaths/1,000 live births) [​IMG] 1 [​IMG] Iceland 2.9 3.9 2 [​IMG] Singapore 3.0 4.1 3 [​IMG] Japan 3.2 4.2 4 [​IMG] Sweden 3.2 4.0 5 [​IMG] Norway 3.3 4.4 6 [​IMG] Hong Kong 3.7 4.7 7 [​IMG] Finland 3.7 4.7 8 [​IMG] Czech Republic 3.8 4.8 9 [​IMG] Switzerland 4.1 5.1 10 [​IMG] South Korea 4.1 4.8 11 [​IMG] Belgium 4.2 5.3 12 [​IMG] France 4.2 5.2 13 [​IMG] Spain 4.2 5.3 14 [​IMG] Germany 4.3 5.4 15 [​IMG] Denmark 4.4 5.8 16 [​IMG] Austria 4.4 5.4 17 [​IMG] Australia 4.4 5.6 18 [​IMG] Luxembourg 4.5 6.6 19 [​IMG] Netherlands 4.7 5.9 20 [​IMG] Israel 4.7 5.7 21 [​IMG] Slovenia 4.8 6.4 22 [​IMG] United Kingdom 4.8 6.0 23 [​IMG] Canada 4.8 5.9 24 [​IMG] Ireland 4.9 6.2 25 [​IMG] Italy 5.0 6.1 26 [​IMG] Portugal 5.0 6.6 27 [​IMG] New Zealand 5.0 6.4 28 [​IMG] Cuba 5.1 6.5 29 Channel Islands ([​IMG] Jersey and [​IMG] Guernsey) 5.2 6.2 30 [​IMG] Brunei 5.5 6.7 31 [​IMG] Cyprus 5.9 6.9 32 [​IMG] New Caledonia 6.1 8.7 33 [​IMG] United States 6.3 7.8

    List by the CIA World Factbook
    (all 2009 estimates)

    Rank [​IMG] Country or territory [​IMG] Infant mortality rate
    (deaths/1,000 live births) [​IMG] 1 [​IMG] Singapore 2.31 2 [​IMG] Bermuda 2.46 3 [​IMG] Sweden 2.75 4 [​IMG] Japan 2.79 5 [​IMG] Hong Kong 2.92 6 [​IMG] Macau 3.22 7 [​IMG] Iceland 3.23 8 [​IMG] France 3.33 9 [​IMG] Finland 3.47 10 [​IMG] Anguilla 3.52 11 [​IMG] Norway 3.58 12 [​IMG] Malta 3.75 13 [​IMG] Andorra 3.76 14 [​IMG] Czech Republic 3.79 15 [​IMG] Germany 3.99 16 [​IMG] Switzerland 4.18 17 [​IMG] Spain 4.21 18 [​IMG] Israel 4.22 19 [​IMG] Slovenia 4.25 20 [​IMG] Liechtenstein 4.25 21 [​IMG] South Korea 4.26 22 [​IMG] Denmark 4.34 23 [​IMG] Austria 4.42 24 [​IMG] Belgium 4.44 25 [​IMG] Guernsey 4.47 26 [​IMG] Luxembourg 4.56 27 [​IMG] Netherlands 4.73 28 [​IMG] Jersey 4.73 29 [​IMG] Australia 4.75 30 [​IMG] Portugal 4.78 31 [​IMG] Gibraltar 4.83 32 [​IMG] United Kingdom 4.85 33 [​IMG] New Zealand 4.92 34 [​IMG] Monaco 5.00 35 [​IMG] Wallis and Futuna 5.02 36 [​IMG] Canada 5.04 37 [​IMG] Ireland 5.05 38 [​IMG] Greece 5.16 39 [​IMG] San Marino 5.34 40 [​IMG] Taiwan 5.35 41 [​IMG] Isle of Man 5.37 42 [​IMG] Italy 5.51 43 [​IMG] European Union 5.72 44 [​IMG] Cuba 5.82 45 [​IMG] Guam 6.05 46 [​IMG] United States 6.26

    List of countries by infant mortality rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  10. ☭proletarian☭
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    ☭proletarian☭ Guest

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    Rank [​IMG] Country (State/territory) [​IMG] Life expectancy at birth (years)
    Overall [​IMG] Life expectancy at birth (years)
    Male [​IMG] Life expectancy at birth (years)
    Female [​IMG] 1 [​IMG] Japan 82.6 79.0 86.1 2 [​IMG] Hong Kong ([​IMG] PRC) 82.2 79.4 85.1 3 [​IMG] Iceland 81.8 80.2 83.3 4 [​IMG] Switzerland 81.7 79.0 84.2 5 [​IMG] Australia 81.2 78.9 83.6 6 [​IMG] Spain 80.9 77.7 84.2 7 [​IMG] Sweden 80.9 78.7 83.0 8 [​IMG] Israel 80.7 78.5 82.8 9 [​IMG] Macau ([​IMG] PRC) 80.7 78.5 82.8 10 [​IMG] France (metropolitan) 80.7 77.1 84.1 11 [​IMG] Canada (20% above world average) 80.7 78.3 82.9 12 [​IMG] Italy 80.5 77.5 83.5 13 [​IMG] New Zealand 80.2 78.2 82.2 14 [​IMG] Norway 80.2 77.8 82.5 15 [​IMG] Singapore 80.0 78.0 81.9 16 [​IMG] Austria 79.8 76.9 82.6 17 [​IMG] Netherlands 79.8 77.5 81.9 18 [​IMG] Martinique ([​IMG] France) 79.5 76.5 82.3 19 [​IMG] Greece 79.5 77.1 81.9 20 [​IMG] Belgium 79.4 76.5 82.3 21 [​IMG] Malta 79.4 77.3 81.3 22 [​IMG] United Kingdom 79.4 77.2 81.6 23 [​IMG] Germany 79.4 76.5 82.1 24 [​IMG] U.S. Virgin Islands ([​IMG] US) 79.4 75.5 83.3 25 [​IMG] Finland 79.3 76.1 82.4 26 [​IMG] Guadeloupe ([​IMG] France) 79.2 76.0 82.2 27 Channel Islands ([​IMG] Jersey and [​IMG] Guernsey) ([​IMG] UK) 79.0 76.6 81.5 28 [​IMG] Cyprus 79.0 76.5 81.6 29 [​IMG] Ireland 78.9 76.5 81.3 30 [​IMG] Costa Rica 78.8 76.5 81.2 31 [​IMG] Puerto Rico ([​IMG] US) 78.7 74.7 82.7 32 [​IMG] Luxembourg 78.7 75.7 81.6 33 [​IMG] United Arab Emirates 78.7 77.2 81.5 34 [​IMG] South Korea 78.6 75.0 82.2 35 [​IMG] Chile 78.6 75.5 81.5 36 [​IMG] Denmark 78.3 76.0 80.6 37 [​IMG] Cuba 78.3 76.2 80.4 38 [​IMG] United States 78.2 75.6 80.8
     

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