Why tax income and subsidizes failures?

[The Rabbi]

Curious...what do you think the rate would be with a Flat Tax. I see it being 20% or more for everyone. So the bottom 20% that don't pay anything now will get hit hard and the top 20% that pay more now will get a break.

How will this go over in our current political environment?

More nonsense.
It's the bottom 47% that don't pay any income tax.
There is a credit up to $30,000. So the bottom 20% wont be hit at all. After that it's every dollar. No loopholes, no deductions.
When you eliminate loopholes and lower the rate you get more revenue. This has been true every time it's been tried.

I appreciate the civil debate...and you are correct. It will create more revenue because of the simplification of the code. Again, it is better then what we have now.

As far as the "none sense" about bring jobs back to US....under the Fair Tax there will be NO taxes for doing business....only at the point of consumption. We would be the only Country in the world that will have no taxes (payroll, capital gains, etc) for doing business.

The Flat Tax would do very little to bring jobs back to the US. BTW, what will the rate be?

Flat Tax doesnt address corporate taxation, so it has no effect on it. The loss of manufacturing is due to many factors, mainly regulatory. But also simply social. Overseas manufacturers of simple to make goods produce goods at lower per unit labor costs than we do. That is specialization, and nothing wrong with it.
I don't know why there is a fetish with factories and manufacturing in this country. Who wants to work in a factory all day?

 

[gallantwarrior]

More nonsense.
It's the bottom 47% that don't pay any income tax.
There is a credit up to $30,000. So the bottom 20% wont be hit at all. After that it's every dollar. No loopholes, no deductions.
When you eliminate loopholes and lower the rate you get more revenue. This has been true every time it's been tried.

I appreciate the civil debate...and you are correct. It will create more revenue because of the simplification of the code. Again, it is better then what we have now.

As far as the "none sense" about bring jobs back to US....under the Fair Tax there will be NO taxes for doing business....only at the point of consumption. We would be the only Country in the world that will have no taxes (payroll, capital gains, etc) for doing business.

The Flat Tax would do very little to bring jobs back to the US. BTW, what will the rate be?

Flat Tax doesnt address corporate taxation, so it has no effect on it. The loss of manufacturing is due to many factors, mainly regulatory. But also simply social. Overseas manufacturers of simple to make goods produce goods at lower per unit labor costs than we do. That is specialization, and nothing wrong with it.
I don't know why there is a fetish with factories and manufacturing in this country. Who wants to work in a factory all day?

We've been sold a bill of goods for a couple of generations that the only way to be someone, make something of yourself, is to get a university degree. Hence the proliferation of relatively meaningless degree programs that equate into few job opportunities. For generations, men...and in some cases, women...managed to feed, clothe, and house a family on laborer's wages. There was a place in society for the lowly factory worker. Now, every man-jack feels they should be paid just like the factory owner or company CEO, regardless of their talent or skill.
Add to this skewed mindset the fact that our government has implemented myriad expensive regulations that obstruct conduct and growth of innovation and manufacturing in this country, and you can clearly see why businesses are fleeing this country in droves. Whether socialists and social engineers like to admit it, most people do not build a business as some kind of social welfare institution. They are motivated by profit...yes, PROFIT. The more unreasonable punitive, and onerous our government becomes in its relationship with those who achieve a profit from their efforts, the more we will see talented individuals moving to places more conducive to their goals.

 

[akelch]

More nonsense.
It's the bottom 47% that don't pay any income tax.
There is a credit up to $30,000. So the bottom 20% wont be hit at all. After that it's every dollar. No loopholes, no deductions.
When you eliminate loopholes and lower the rate you get more revenue. This has been true every time it's been tried.

I appreciate the civil debate...and you are correct. It will create more revenue because of the simplification of the code. Again, it is better then what we have now.

As far as the "none sense" about bring jobs back to US....under the Fair Tax there will be NO taxes for doing business....only at the point of consumption. We would be the only Country in the world that will have no taxes (payroll, capital gains, etc) for doing business.

The Flat Tax would do very little to bring jobs back to the US. BTW, what will the rate be?

Actually, businesses would pay taxes, but only on the materials that are purchased, same as everyone else. Exorbitant and punitive corporate taxation would be decreased under the Fair Tax. But taxes are only a part of the reason why businesses are moving overseas. We would also have to overhaul how manufacturing and other businesses are regulated in this country, as well.

Actually yes and no, any business to business transaction will not have any embedded taxes. The Fair Tax is only applied once at the consumer end. All other taxes like state tax, gas tax, etc. will still need to be paid.

To clarify The Fair Tax replaces
Income tax
Social Security tax
Medicare / medicaid tax "contribution"
Capital gains

All others will still apply.

Remember everyone pays about 22% of embedded taxes now on all products.

Corporations don't pay taxes, they collect them.

 

[The Rabbi]

I appreciate the civil debate...and you are correct. It will create more revenue because of the simplification of the code. Again, it is better then what we have now.

As far as the "none sense" about bring jobs back to US....under the Fair Tax there will be NO taxes for doing business....only at the point of consumption. We would be the only Country in the world that will have no taxes (payroll, capital gains, etc) for doing business.

The Flat Tax would do very little to bring jobs back to the US. BTW, what will the rate be?

Flat Tax doesnt address corporate taxation, so it has no effect on it. The loss of manufacturing is due to many factors, mainly regulatory. But also simply social. Overseas manufacturers of simple to make goods produce goods at lower per unit labor costs than we do. That is specialization, and nothing wrong with it.
I don't know why there is a fetish with factories and manufacturing in this country. Who wants to work in a factory all day?

We've been sold a bill of goods for a couple of generations that the only way to be someone, make something of yourself, is to get a university degree. Hence the proliferation of relatively meaningless degree programs that equate into few job opportunities. For generations, men...and in some cases, women...managed to feed, clothe, and house a family on laborer's wages. There was a place in society for the lowly factory worker. Now, every man-jack feels they should be paid just like the factory owner or company CEO, regardless of their talent or skill.
Add to this skewed mindset the fact that our government has implemented myriad expensive regulations that obstruct conduct and growth of innovation and manufacturing in this country, and you can clearly see why businesses are fleeing this country in droves. Whether socialists and social engineers like to admit it, most people do not build a business as some kind of social welfare institution. They are motivated by profit...yes, PROFIT. The more unreasonable punitive, and onerous our government becomes in its relationship with those who achieve a profit from their efforts, the more we will see talented individuals moving to places more conducive to their goals.

None of that makes working in a factory a desireable occupation. I agree that lots of degree programs are worthless. But lots of them aren't.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The reason the tax code is so complex is because it is a litany of tax indulgences given to the WEALTHY.

And yet the top 1% now pay 40% of all Federal income tax????

 

[Wry Catcher]

The tax code is over 70,000 pages large and no one understands it. We spend billions of dollars a year just to comply with the tax code.

If we are really serious about growing our economy....this is the first place we should start.

The FairTax will create more jobs and tax revenue then the trillions we spent in stimulus. And it is only 133 pages long.

Thoughts?

In response to your general question I suggest you watch the History Channel production, "The Men Who Built America" with an open mind.

Power tends to corrupt, great wealth comes with enormous power, power able to destroy as well as power to create. A progressive income tax limits the power of great wealth to destroy, but allows great wealth to create, when it is not written in stone. Hence, targeted tax credits and subsidy allows for creation not its antithesis.

 

[The Rabbi]

The tax code is over 70,000 pages large and no one understands it. We spend billions of dollars a year just to comply with the tax code.

If we are really serious about growing our economy....this is the first place we should start.

The FairTax will create more jobs and tax revenue then the trillions we spent in stimulus. And it is only 133 pages long.

Thoughts?

In response to your general question I suggest you watch the History Channel production, "The Men Who Built America" with an open mind.

Power tends to corrupt, great wealth comes with enormous power, power able to destroy as well as power to create. A progressive income tax limits the power of great wealth to destroy, but allows great wealth to create, when it is not written in stone. Hence, targeted tax credits and subsidy allows for creation not its antithesis.

You dont have a fucking clue what you're talking about, do you?
Hint: what happened to the 10 wealthiest men in 1925?

 

[Wry Catcher]

The tax code is over 70,000 pages large and no one understands it. We spend billions of dollars a year just to comply with the tax code.

If we are really serious about growing our economy....this is the first place we should start.

The FairTax will create more jobs and tax revenue then the trillions we spent in stimulus. And it is only 133 pages long.

Thoughts?

In response to your general question I suggest you watch the History Channel production, "The Men Who Built America" with an open mind.

Power tends to corrupt, great wealth comes with enormous power, power able to destroy as well as power to create. A progressive income tax limits the power of great wealth to destroy, but allows great wealth to create, when it is not written in stone. Hence, targeted tax credits and subsidy allows for creation not its antithesis.

You dont have a fucking clue what you're talking about, do you?
Hint: what happened to the 10 wealthiest men in 1925?

Please do tell. BTW, what does that have to do with the Gilded Age and the growth of the Progressive era?

 

[akelch]

In response to your general question I suggest you watch the History Channel production, "The Men Who Built America" with an open mind.

Power tends to corrupt, great wealth comes with enormous power, power able to destroy as well as power to create. A progressive income tax limits the power of great wealth to destroy, but allows great wealth to create, when it is not written in stone. Hence, targeted tax credits and subsidy allows for creation not its antithesis.

You dont have a fucking clue what you're talking about, do you?
Hint: what happened to the 10 wealthiest men in 1925?

Please do tell. BTW, what does that have to do with the Gilded Age and the growth of the Progressive era?

You are miss guided...if power/wealth corrupts then start with the government. Plus, the free market is the best system to limit ones power over others. Because the only way they are able to gain wealth is by giving their customers what they want.
Government actions (through taxes) breaks this fundamental rule. Thus limiting economic freedom.

 

[Wry Catcher]

You dont have a fucking clue what you're talking about, do you?
Hint: what happened to the 10 wealthiest men in 1925?

Please do tell. BTW, what does that have to do with the Gilded Age and the growth of the Progressive era?

You are miss guided...if power/wealth corrupts then start with the government. Plus, the free market is the best system to limit ones power over others. Because the only way they are able to gain wealth is by giving their customers what they want.
Government actions (through taxes) breaks this fundamental rule. Thus limiting economic freedom.

That's your opinion; it is not mine. An unregulated market is what caused the Great Bush Recession.

Have you wondered who corrupts the government? I suggest you watch with an open mind the History Series, "The Men Who Built America". Then, extrapolate from what you learn and compare it to the direction the Republican Party wants to go.

BTW, the moron you thanked, Rabbi, is a known liar, a partisan hack and suffers from a psychosexual malady.

BTW2 Do you know who the 10 wealthiest Americans in 1925 were and what became of them (Was Babe Ruth one of them)?

 

[The Rabbi]

You dont have a fucking clue what you're talking about, do you?
Hint: what happened to the 10 wealthiest men in 1925?

Please do tell. BTW, what does that have to do with the Gilded Age and the growth of the Progressive era?

You are miss guided...if power/wealth corrupts then start with the government. Plus, the free market is the best system to limit ones power over others. Because the only way they are able to gain wealth is by giving their customers what they want.
Government actions (through taxes) breaks this fundamental rule. Thus limiting economic freedom.

that's way too logical for him. Wrycatcher sucked gov't cock for his entire career. So he isn't turning his back on it now.

 

[akelch]

Please do tell. BTW, what does that have to do with the Gilded Age and the growth of the Progressive era?

You are miss guided...if power/wealth corrupts then start with the government. Plus, the free market is the best system to limit ones power over others. Because the only way they are able to gain wealth is by giving their customers what they want.
Government actions (through taxes) breaks this fundamental rule. Thus limiting economic freedom.

That's your opinion; it is not mine. An unregulated market is what caused the Great Bush Recession.

Have you wondered who corrupts the government? I suggest you watch with an open mind the History Series, "The Men Who Built America". Then, extrapolate from what you learn and compare it to the direction the Republican Party wants to go.

BTW, the moron you thanked, Rabbi, is a known liar, a partisan hack and suffers from a psychosexual malady.

BTW2 Do you know who the 10 wealthiest Americans in 1925 were and what became of them (Was Babe Ruth one of them)?

We covered this.....business does corrupt government. It has to to get power over labor because the free market limits their power through competition and freedom of choice. That is why we need to limit the power Government...thus limiting the power business.

 

[Wry Catcher]

You are miss guided...if power/wealth corrupts then start with the government. Plus, the free market is the best system to limit ones power over others. Because the only way they are able to gain wealth is by giving their customers what they want.
Government actions (through taxes) breaks this fundamental rule. Thus limiting economic freedom.

That's your opinion; it is not mine. An unregulated market is what caused the Great Bush Recession.

Have you wondered who corrupts the government? I suggest you watch with an open mind the History Series, "The Men Who Built America". Then, extrapolate from what you learn and compare it to the direction the Republican Party wants to go.

BTW, the moron you thanked, Rabbi, is a known liar, a partisan hack and suffers from a psychosexual malady.

BTW2 Do you know who the 10 wealthiest Americans in 1925 were and what became of them (Was Babe Ruth one of them)?

We covered this.....business does corrupt government. It has to to get power over labor because the free market limits their power through competition and freedom of choice. That is why we need to limit the power Government...thus limiting the power business.

I see, you want to free business and enslave labor. First, that's reprehensible; second, it's myopic. Voodoo economics is a failure, we are a consumer driven economy. Higher wages = more money circulating throughout the economy. Dirt cheap wages make the rich richer and the poor more miserable, for a time. Don't you read history?

Notice BTW, Rabbi won't even attempt to defend his lies.

 

[The Rabbi]

Please do tell. BTW, what does that have to do with the Gilded Age and the growth of the Progressive era?

You are miss guided...if power/wealth corrupts then start with the government. Plus, the free market is the best system to limit ones power over others. Because the only way they are able to gain wealth is by giving their customers what they want.
Government actions (through taxes) breaks this fundamental rule. Thus limiting economic freedom.

That's your opinion; it is not mine. An unregulated market is what caused the Great Bush Recession.

Have you wondered who corrupts the government? I suggest you watch with an open mind the History Series, "The Men Who Built America". Then, extrapolate from what you learn and compare it to the direction the Republican Party wants to go.

BTW, the moron you thanked, Rabbi, is a known liar, a partisan hack and suffers from a psychosexual malady.

BTW2 Do you know who the 10 wealthiest Americans in 1925 were and what became of them (Was Babe Ruth one of them)?

There was no "unregulated market" during hte Bush era. Another myth foisted on the gullible.
What corrupts gov't? Big contributors like labor unions and trial lawyers.
If anyone is a partisan hack, it's you, cocksucker. You aren't the most ignorant poster here but only because competition is steep.

 

[akelch]

That's your opinion; it is not mine. An unregulated market is what caused the Great Bush Recession.

Have you wondered who corrupts the government? I suggest you watch with an open mind the History Series, "The Men Who Built America". Then, extrapolate from what you learn and compare it to the direction the Republican Party wants to go.

BTW, the moron you thanked, Rabbi, is a known liar, a partisan hack and suffers from a psychosexual malady.

BTW2 Do you know who the 10 wealthiest Americans in 1925 were and what became of them (Was Babe Ruth one of them)?

We covered this.....business does corrupt government. It has to to get power over labor because the free market limits their power through competition and freedom of choice. That is why we need to limit the power Government...thus limiting the power business.

I see, you want to free business and enslave labor. First, that's reprehensible; second, it's myopic. Voodoo economics is a failure, we are a consumer driven economy. Higher wages = more money circulating throughout the economy. Dirt cheap wages make the rich richer and the poor more miserable, for a time. Don't you read history?

Notice BTW, Rabbi won't even attempt to defend his lies.

I see...So Government rule is the only solution. Many ruled by few....servitude is what is best......I understand and I will pray for you.

 

[Wry Catcher]

You are miss guided...if power/wealth corrupts then start with the government. Plus, the free market is the best system to limit ones power over others. Because the only way they are able to gain wealth is by giving their customers what they want.
Government actions (through taxes) breaks this fundamental rule. Thus limiting economic freedom.

That's your opinion; it is not mine. An unregulated market is what caused the Great Bush Recession.

Have you wondered who corrupts the government? I suggest you watch with an open mind the History Series, "The Men Who Built America". Then, extrapolate from what you learn and compare it to the direction the Republican Party wants to go.

BTW, the moron you thanked, Rabbi, is a known liar, a partisan hack and suffers from a psychosexual malady.

BTW2 Do you know who the 10 wealthiest Americans in 1925 were and what became of them (Was Babe Ruth one of them)?

There was no "unregulated market" during hte Bush era. Another myth foisted on the gullible.
What corrupts gov't? Big contributors like labor unions and trial lawyers.
If anyone is a partisan hack, it's you, cocksucker. You aren't the most ignorant poster here but only because competition is steep.

With your fascination with the male organ, why haven't you and warbler hooked up? In truth regulations existed during the Bush Administration they were simply ignored. Why? The rich got richer and that Mr. Moron is a fact.

But the point Mr. GayCurious was we must learn from the past and the production on the History Channel gives a broad perspective on unregulated capitalism. And, Mr. Mendacious, isn't that one of Romney's main talking points - cutting regulations? Of course is was but I doubt that you Mr. Dopey would ever admit to that fact.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I see, you want to free business and enslave labor.

Econ 101 for you. In a capitalist economy you have to pay the highest wage possible or lose your best employees to those who will.

Now even a liberal can see the beauty of capitalism.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

An unregulated market is what caused the Great Bush Recession.

who but a drooling village idiot or a liberal could say with a straight face that the liberal Federal Reserve, CRA, FHA, Fan/Fred were not largely responsible for the current depression??

In fact our great newspapers and economists agree:

our great newspapers and economists on left and right agree it was liberal government that caused the current depression.

"First consider the once controversial view that the crisis was largely caused by the Fed's holding interest rates too low for too long after the 2001 recession. This view is now so widely held that the editorial pages of both the NYTimes and the Wall Street Journal agree on its validity!"...John B. Taylor


" The Federal reserve having done so much to create the problems in which the economy is now mired, having mistakenly thought that even after the housing bubble burst the problems were contained, and having underestimated the severity of the crisis, now wants to make a contribution to preventing the economy from sinking into a Japanese Style malaise....... - "Joseph Stiglitz"( uber left economist)

You may not have heard of the Federal Reserve system but it exists to inflate and deflate the currency supply through the housing market. They inflated too much for too long. This caused what they call a housing bubble. While the bubble was inflating all the big banks and many insurance companies bought bubble mortgages thinking they were sound rather than merely purchased or made possible by newly printed funny money. When the bubble deflated they all lost money on the mortgages. It would be analogous to the government making cars and giving them to GM so everyone could have a car. If GM got them by the ton and for very little money of course they would find a way to move them . This is essentially what the Banks did with the free money. In addition to the Federal Reserve System you had Fanny and Freddie which bought and guaranteed many of the mortgages so no one had to worry about them failing. Then you had CRA, FHA, Federal Home Loan Bank Board( 3% down payment loans) and several others that were designed to get everybody in their own home.

When the states tried to move against predatory lending by national banks they were blocked by the bank's federal regulator, the office of the comptroller of the currency, That empowered money lenders say Lynn Turner.

Just as significantly you had very badly conceived accounting rules that hid the problems from everyone until it was too late. Accounting rules are supposed to do the opposite, not move billions in potential liabilities off the balance sheet onto tiny footnote on the bottom of a page as happened at Citibank, or onto on sentence at the end of a 10-Q report as happened at AIG, or as generally happened with SIVs (structured investment vehicles). Then you had gov't rules from the last crisis, the Enron Crisis, the created mark-to- market accounting rules for this crisis that many believe greatly exacerbated this crisis.

Then you had the problem with the government backed ratings agencies that simply failed to rate the mortgage backed and related securities, properly. Sorry, it had little to do with Bush, but had everything to do with inane attempts by the liberal to regulate the free market!


Warren Buffett: "There are significant limits to what regulation can accomplish. As a dramatic illustration, take two of the biggest accounting disasters in the past ten years: Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. We're talking billions and billions of dollars of misstatements at both places".

Now, these are two incredibly important institutions. I mean, they accounted for over 40% of the mortgage flow a few years back. Right now I think they're up to 70%. They're quasi-governmental in nature. So the government set up an organization called OFHEO. I'm not sure what all the letters stand for. [Note to Warren: They stand for Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight.] But if you go to OFHEO's website, you'll find that its purpose was to just watch over these two companies. OFHEO had 200 employees. Their job was simply to look at two companies and say, "Are these guys behaving like they're supposed to?" And of course what happened were two of the greatest accounting misstatements in history while these 200 people had their jobs. It's incredible. I mean, two for two!

“Whatever regulatory changes are made, they will pale in comparison to the change already evident in today’s markets,” he said. “Those markets for an indefinite future will be far more restrained than would any currently contemplated new regulatory regime.”-Alan Greenspan

Courtesy A. Smith:FDR created Fannie.
LBJ Privatized Fannie - creating an "enron" like environment:
Greg Mankiw's Blog: Thanks, LBJ

Carter's Community Reinvestment Act - accelerated by Clinton - pushed risky loans:
Community Reinvestment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clinton pushed Fannie into Subprime - the most critical mistake:
Andrew Cuomo and Fannie and Freddie - Page 1 - News - New York - Village Voice

Even the NY Times figured this out: Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending - NYTimes.com

Bush and McCain attempted to reform Fannie on 17 occasions
Bush Called For Reform of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac 17 Times in 2008 Alone Only To Have Dems Ignored His Warnings :: Political News and commentaries :: Hyscience

The risky subprime loans fueled another layer of risk - derivatives
https://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle/articleid/2947518

The LA Times reported on Clinton's "subprime" success in 1999:
Minorities' Home Ownership Booms Under Clinton but Still Lags Whites' - Los Angeles Times

 

[The Rabbi]

That's your opinion; it is not mine. An unregulated market is what caused the Great Bush Recession.

Have you wondered who corrupts the government? I suggest you watch with an open mind the History Series, "The Men Who Built America". Then, extrapolate from what you learn and compare it to the direction the Republican Party wants to go.

BTW, the moron you thanked, Rabbi, is a known liar, a partisan hack and suffers from a psychosexual malady.

BTW2 Do you know who the 10 wealthiest Americans in 1925 were and what became of them (Was Babe Ruth one of them)?

There was no "unregulated market" during hte Bush era. Another myth foisted on the gullible.
What corrupts gov't? Big contributors like labor unions and trial lawyers.
If anyone is a partisan hack, it's you, cocksucker. You aren't the most ignorant poster here but only because competition is steep.

With your fascination with the male organ, why haven't you and warbler hooked up? In truth regulations existed during the Bush Administration they were simply ignored. Why? The rich got richer and that Mr. Moron is a fact.

But the point Mr. GayCurious was we must learn from the past and the production on the History Channel gives a broad perspective on unregulated capitalism. And, Mr. Mendacious, isn't that one of Romney's main talking points - cutting regulations? Of course is was but I doubt that you Mr. Dopey would ever admit to that fact.

I'm not the one who made a career sucking dicks in the staff room.
So now you say there were regulation but they were ignored. I guess that's why a bunch of senior execs at Enron etc went to jail. No enforcement.
Someone who gets his info from one show on the History Channel shouldn't be calling me anything except "Sir".
Do you understand the difference between "unregulated" and cutting regulations, Mr. Shrimping? Maybe you should watch more History Channel and quit posting here until you've achieved a 3rd grade education.