Why NOT To Attack Public Sector Workers.

[PoliticalChic]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

3. Neither of the above has behaved other than the way human nature would have predicted they would behave.
“Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.” Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198

4.Thus, the validation of conservative principles: without checks and balances, people behave like....people.

5. Further, people lash out, as we are about to do in punishing public sector workers.

6. These people have committments, mortgages, car loans, college costs, etc....Rash and abrupt changes to their contracts and salaries will hurt both them, and the economy.

7. Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

 

[The T]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

3. Neither of the above has behaved other than the way human nature would have predicted they would behave.
“Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.” Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198

4.Thus, the validation of conservative principles: without checks and balances, people behave like....people.

5. Further, people lash out, as we are about to do in punishing public sector workers.

6. These people have committments, mortgages, car loans, college costs, etc....Rash and abrupt changes to their contracts and salaries will hurt both them, and the economy.

7. Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

Agreed. Incremental. Just as how what we face has showed itself. As the saying goes...we didn't get here overnight, and we won't get out of it in the same time frame.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Ask the average conservative American, or any American for that matter, what they would do if they were trying to attract better quality people to join the military,

and I guarantee you, very high on almost everyone's list would be

better pay and benefits.

Unless you don't believe that the quality of the people who work in the rest of the public sector matters,

for example, police, firefighters, teachers...

...how can you not believe in the same principle?

 

[The T]

Ask the average conservative American, or any American for that matter, what they would do if they were trying to attract better quality people to join the military,

and I guarantee you, very high on almost everyone's list would be

better pay and benefits.

Unless you don't believe that the quality of the people who work in the rest of the public sector matters,

for example, police, firefighters, teachers...

...how can you not believe in the same principle?

WHY bring the Military into this? Can you answer? The Military are far removed from the topic

SPIN. The Government is CHARGED with defending this Republic....

Your spin is NOT germain.

 

[Shoobis1]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

3. Neither of the above has behaved other than the way human nature would have predicted they would behave.
“Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.” Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198

4.Thus, the validation of conservative principles: without checks and balances, people behave like....people.

5. Further, people lash out, as we are about to do in punishing public sector workers.

6. These people have committments, mortgages, car loans, college costs, etc....Rash and abrupt changes to their contracts and salaries will hurt both them, and the economy.

7. Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

It's true that we can try to do this incrementally--no need to rip the bandage of in one quick pull. But I think this is already being done. Even the GOP's proposed budget won't completely eliminate the deficit. Sooner or later, people are going to have to make adjustments. It's going to be hard--that's just life.

I'm kind of irritated at public "servants" because many of them seem to think they're the boss of me just because they work for the government. In a democracy, ultimately the people rule. Citizens and government employees are on an equal level.

 

[Annie]

Ask the average conservative American, or any American for that matter, what they would do if they were trying to attract better quality people to join the military,

and I guarantee you, very high on almost everyone's list would be

better pay and benefits.

Unless you don't believe that the quality of the people who work in the rest of the public sector matters,

for example, police, firefighters, teachers...

...how can you not believe in the same principle?

Are you saying the military has the pay, (they do have the benefits if they get vested and how long does that commitment last?), that your other examples do?

 

[Shoobis1]

Ask the average conservative American, or any American for that matter, what they would do if they were trying to attract better quality people to join the military,

and I guarantee you, very high on almost everyone's list would be

better pay and benefits.

Unless you don't believe that the quality of the people who work in the rest of the public sector matters,

for example, police, firefighters, teachers...

...how can you not believe in the same principle?

I would want high-quality people working for the government, just as a successful business would want high-quality people working for them. But there is a point where you're not paying people enough, and there is a point where you're paying people too much--there's a balance to everything. And right now, public employees get a pretty sweet deal with all the benefits they get.

Another important thing to keep in mind that while money doesn't hurt, no amount of money can guarantee high-quality work. The people in charge of hiring still have to be smart.

 

[washamericom]

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has

this is true p.c. clint eastwood said that "we are conservative by nature"
something to the effect of drama and glittery productions of banal events.

 

[California Girl]

Same tired old argument from the left: Using the military, teachers, fire and police as weapons. Fine, keep them. We all (should) respect them. Get rid of the fucking bureaucrats..... cut the dross out of the public sector.

 

[washamericom]

i had to look up dross, since i'm not a chemist. do the people in the union like being in the union?

 

[The T]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

3. Neither of the above has behaved other than the way human nature would have predicted they would behave.
“Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.” Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198

4.Thus, the validation of conservative principles: without checks and balances, people behave like....people.

5. Further, people lash out, as we are about to do in punishing public sector workers.

6. These people have committments, mortgages, car loans, college costs, etc....Rash and abrupt changes to their contracts and salaries will hurt both them, and the economy.

7. Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

It's true that we can try to do this incrementally--no need to rip the bandage of in one quick pull. But I think this is already being done. Even the GOP's proposed budget won't completely eliminate the deficit. Sooner or later, people are going to have to make adjustments. It's going to be hard--that's just life.

I'm kind of irritated at public "servants" because many of them seem to think they're the boss of me just because they work for the government. In a democracy, ultimately the people rule. Citizens and government employees are on an equal level.

And that is it, isn't it...instead of them being there at YOUR behest...they have turned it arounhd and demanded that YOU give for them.

But yes, incrementally...and it is rearing it's head...time we incrementally turn it around onto the proper course as envisioned by the Founders.

 

[The T]

Same tired old argument from the left: Using the military, teachers, fire and police as weapons. Fine, keep them. We all (should) respect them. Get rid of the fucking bureaucrats..... cut the dross out of the public sector.

The public Sector should be as the private sector as to benefits. First thing to do is RID the Government of UNIONS, and push them into the private sector where they belong, and eventually will be squashed.

 

[trobinett]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

3. Neither of the above has behaved other than the way human nature would have predicted they would behave.
“Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.” Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198

4.Thus, the validation of conservative principles: without checks and balances, people behave like....people.

5. Further, people lash out, as we are about to do in punishing public sector workers.

6. These people have committments, mortgages, car loans, college costs, etc....Rash and abrupt changes to their contracts and salaries will hurt both them, and the economy.

7. Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

All good points, HOWEVER, that really isn't whats happening.

People are upset, and are attacking the public sector workers for being such losers, and users.

It's true, they ride a desk, avoid doing their job, ride around in p.u.'s or cars, and what takes one person to do in the private sector, takes 5, or more, to do in the public sector. I for one am tired of it, and don't think we get a good return on our tax dollars.

There ALL just waiting for retirement on OUR tax dollars, and really haven't added any value to our lives. Most, if not all public sector workers, couldn't hold down a job in the private sector, and wouldn't even be interested in working in the private sector, cause the benefit package isn't good enough.

Fire the lot of them, just like Regan did to the Air Traffic Controllers, and lets start over.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

No one is blaming them, they are just pointing out the fact that cuts mean cuts, and sacrifice means sacrifice. You do not get to call for others to suffer and not suffer yourself.

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

Because the unions elected them.

3. Neither of the above has behaved other than the way human nature would have predicted they would behave.
“Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.” Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198

Nor is it contrary to human nature to not want to pay for the problems you are helping to create. Nonetheless, they have to pay.

4.Thus, the validation of conservative principles: without checks and balances, people behave like....people.

And your solution is to ignore the problem?

5. Further, people lash out, as we are about to do in punishing public sector workers.

It is not punishment to point out that if things do not change now they will get so bad that the entire economy will suffer. Just because human nature has put off facing the problem for decades it does not mean we have the luxury of putting things off until our children cannot pay the price.

6. These people have committments, mortgages, car loans, college costs, etc....Rash and abrupt changes to their contracts and salaries will hurt both them, and the economy.

They also have jobs, so they can figure out a way to deal. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who do not have jobs who have the exact same problems. In other words, stop whining.

7. Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman.

This is not a quick change, it is a necessary and inevitable one.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

Prudence is wonderful, but not always possible. Besides, the unions are actively rejecting prudence.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

They can learn the benefits, if there are any, after the changes are implemented.

 

[Defiant1]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

3. Neither of the above has behaved other than the way human nature would have predicted they would behave.
“Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.” Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198

4.Thus, the validation of conservative principles: without checks and balances, people behave like....people.

5. Further, people lash out, as we are about to do in punishing public sector workers.

6. These people have committments, mortgages, car loans, college costs, etc....Rash and abrupt changes to their contracts and salaries will hurt both them, and the economy.

7. Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

Oh please. What's the worse that can happen? They have to cancel half their premium channels on cable and scale back their unlimited data plans on their cell phones.

 

[The T]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

3. Neither of the above has behaved other than the way human nature would have predicted they would behave.
“Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.” Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198

4.Thus, the validation of conservative principles: without checks and balances, people behave like....people.

5. Further, people lash out, as we are about to do in punishing public sector workers.

6. These people have committments, mortgages, car loans, college costs, etc....Rash and abrupt changes to their contracts and salaries will hurt both them, and the economy.

7. Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

All good points, HOWEVER, that really isn't whats happening.

People are upset, and are attacking the public sector workers for being such losers, and users.

It's true, they ride a desk, avoid doing their job, ride around in p.u.'s or cars, and what takes one person to do in the private sector, takes 5, or more, to do in the public sector. I for one am tired of it, and don't think we get a good return on our tax dollars.

There ALL just waiting for retirement on OUR tax dollars, and really haven't added any value to our lives. Most, if not all public sector workers, couldn't hold down a job in the private sector, and wouldn't even be interested in working in the private sector, cause the benefit package isn't good enough.

Fire the lot of them, just like Regan did to the Air Traffic Controllers, and lets start over.

And who's to say that the option of MASS FIRINGS is off the table?

Hint: it isn't.

 

[PoliticalChic]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

No one is blaming them, they are just pointing out the fact that cuts mean cuts, and sacrifice means sacrifice. You do not get to call for others to suffer and not suffer yourself.

2. Political office holders gave away the store for votes.

Because the unions elected them.



Nor is it contrary to human nature to not want to pay for the problems you are helping to create. Nonetheless, they have to pay.



And your solution is to ignore the problem?



It is not punishment to point out that if things do not change now they will get so bad that the entire economy will suffer. Just because human nature has put off facing the problem for decades it does not mean we have the luxury of putting things off until our children cannot pay the price.



They also have jobs, so they can figure out a way to deal. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who do not have jobs who have the exact same problems. In other words, stop whining.



This is not a quick change, it is a necessary and inevitable one.

a. Incremental change is prudent. It allows all concerned, in this matter, to adjust.

Prudence is wonderful, but not always possible. Besides, the unions are actively rejecting prudence.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

They can learh the benefits, if there are any, after the changes are implemented.

"And your solution is to ignore the problem?"

Not at at all.

I'm not ignoring the problem, merely pointing out the error of solving it via the wrong path.

First, we have identied a problem.
Checks and balances have to be applied to it. Now that we admit that greed and self-aggrandizement are part of the human condition...we adjust for same.
a. The free market should determine salaries.
b. If, as has happened, there are feather-bedding positons, there should be a basis for eliminating them. I suggest that human nature will provide the answer: monetary rewards for those in the field who can point out positions that are redundant and unnecessary...for example, teachers no doubt will be able to point out better ways to excess administration positions.

Tenure can be eliminated. Easily. It was done in NYC for supervisors, by offering extra bonuses if tenure was eliminated.

I'm a strong believer in vouchers and charter schools. They can set their own salary scales.

Sanitation was once five men to a truck, now it is two.

Elected officials need to face criminal charges if they sign off on excessive raises, perqs, etc...and there should be no time limitations, if they did not anticipate long term over-runs, they would still be subject to charges.
We should expect realistic appraisal of costs, and of return on pension funds. This expertise is a requirement of the position.

Workers should be made to understand years in advance what the changes would be, so that they can plan ahead, look for other employment, etc.
The same for entitlements.

Heavily taxing entrepreneurs sends exactly the wrong message if we rather incentivize private sector employment, over public.

Off the top of my head, that would be a start. I'm sure there are bright people, Solons, who can move us along.

But it is wrong to demonize these workers.

 

[Annie]

Ask the average conservative American, or any American for that matter, what they would do if they were trying to attract better quality people to join the military,

and I guarantee you, very high on almost everyone's list would be

better pay and benefits.

Unless you don't believe that the quality of the people who work in the rest of the public sector matters,

for example, police, firefighters, teachers...

...how can you not believe in the same principle?

Are you saying the military has the pay; (they do have the benefits if they get vested and how long does that commitment last?); that your other examples do?

bump

 

[The T]

1. How can one blame a worker who 'accepts' a bonus or a raise?

No one is blaming them, they are just pointing out the fact that cuts mean cuts, and sacrifice means sacrifice. You do not get to call for others to suffer and not suffer yourself.



Because the unions elected them.



Nor is it contrary to human nature to not want to pay for the problems you are helping to create. Nonetheless, they have to pay.



And your solution is to ignore the problem?



It is not punishment to point out that if things do not change now they will get so bad that the entire economy will suffer. Just because human nature has put off facing the problem for decades it does not mean we have the luxury of putting things off until our children cannot pay the price.



They also have jobs, so they can figure out a way to deal. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who do not have jobs who have the exact same problems. In other words, stop whining.



This is not a quick change, it is a necessary and inevitable one.



Prudence is wonderful, but not always possible. Besides, the unions are actively rejecting prudence.

b. This is an opportunity to show these workers the benefits of conservartive behavior...and we should not behave impulsively as the other side has.

They can learh the benefits, if there are any, after the changes are implemented.

"And your solution is to ignore the problem?"

Not at at all.

I'm not ignoring the problem, merely pointing out the error of solving it via the wrong path.

First, we have identied a problem.
Checks and balances have to be applied to it. Now that we admit that greed and self-aggrandizement are part of the human condition...we adjust for same.

a. The free market should determine salaries.

Excellent. it would alieve the inherent problem of politicians addressing thea small portion of thier base keeping their noses out of it...

b. If, as has happened, there are feather-bedding positons, there should be a basis for eliminating them. I suggest that human nature will provide the answer: monetary rewards for those in the field who can point out positions that are redundant and unnecessary...for example, teachers no doubt will be able to point out better ways to excess administration positions.

And allow those same teachers to controll the areas under their perview...

Tenure can be eliminated. Easily. It was done in NYC for supervisors, by offering extra bonuses if tenure was eliminated.

Don't perform...you are gone...as in the private sector....

I'm a strong believer in vouchers and charter schools. They can set their own salary scales.

As it should be. They should set as market dictates....

Sanitation was once five men to a truck, now it is two.

Consolodation...quickness of effort, eliminating untimely delays and retain efficientcy...

Elected officials need to face criminal charges if they sign off on excessive raises, perqs, etc...and there should be no time limitations,

Yes they should...if they know there are other ways and are found protecting a small part of thier

constitiuency if they did not anticipate long term over-runs, they would still be subject to charges

.Indeed. Nail 'em to the wall for favouritism

We should expect realistic appraisal of costs, and of return on pension funds. This expertise is a requirement of the position.

And NOT a political appointment as most tend to be.

Workers should be made to understand years in advance what the changes would be, so that they can plan ahead, look for other employment, etc.
The same for entitlements.

In other words be made to understand that just because they are in a union, their job is NOT secure. The people paying the bills expect results for thier money and will NOT tolerate slackers....

Heavily taxing entrepreneurs sends exactly the wrong message if we rather incentivize private sector employment, over public.

Public enterprise as a matter of course outshines that of PUBLIC ones because failure to performin the private sector means lost time, lost money...and someone has to PAY for the failure...meaning the employee...they don't enjoy the shield of tenure to guard the loss of their job should they screw up...Government Employees that are union...get a PASS by and large compared to their private counterparts...and thus the ARROGANCE of the UNIONS and their members...

Off the top of my head, that would be a start. I'm sure there are bright people, Solons, who can move us along.

Sure there are...but they have to show themselves...my attitude is perform or your OUT...

But it is wrong to demonize these workers.

Is it really wrong to demonize them? I don't think so. What they lack is proper WORK ETHIC...something UNIONS have turned a blind EYE towards to 'RIGHT TO WORK...or else'. A very dangerous, arrogant attitude.

 

[The T]

Ask the average conservative American, or any American for that matter, what they would do if they were trying to attract better quality people to join the military,

and I guarantee you, very high on almost everyone's list would be

better pay and benefits.

Unless you don't believe that the quality of the people who work in the rest of the public sector matters,

for example, police, firefighters, teachers...

...how can you not believe in the same principle?

Are you saying the military has the pay; (they do have the benefits if they get vested and how long does that commitment last?); that your other examples do?

bump

I wouldn't count on an answer from Carbonated....