Why Isn't This A Death Penalty?

[emilynghiem]

Interesting. You language mirrors in many ways my experiences as a Republican. I am a Republican, but I can tell you that most of them hate my guts. I remain one because fundamentally I cannot escape being one. In many ways I find it far more productive to challenge my fellow Republicans, for many of the same reasons you find for challenging your fellow Democrats.

I think ultimately it comes down to progress. The derisiveness and division of our country is going to kill us, for all the same reasons Abraham Lincoln believed that a house divided against itself cannot stand. This is as appropriate now as it was then because the political and cultural polarization of the U.S. now is every bit as extreme as it was during the Civil War, arguably more so. For me to challenge Democrats only drives the wedge deeper, while to challenge Republicans may actually encourage some level of cooperation, even if I fail miserably most of the time.

Perhaps I am simply a moderate who refuses to admit it. That's possible. Be that as it may, I see no need to turn in my Republican badge, even if many within the party despise me.

Sorry to contribute to what seems to be a rather big diversion from the OP. Please carry on.

Dear Jimmy: I think this is wonderful, and I encourage you to keep on, and don't stop until you succeed. I have a Republican friend who ran for President to study the system, and works on ideas for bringing it to the level where every day business people can participate.
If you'd like to partner on project ideas, or share resources and contacts online, the same things that help me will likely help you, and probably with greater success. If you want to email me, I'm at emilynghiem at hotmail or yahoo, and my website for Constitutional outreach and education is ethics-commission.net I am puzzled why you would be so hated as a Republican. I mean, there are gay Log Cabin Republicans, pro-choice Republicans, even Republicans for Obama. Surely there is room for your ideas, and I find it hard to believe for someone like you who seems so amenable to peacemaking across lines.
For someone like Ron Paul who may stir things up in "divisive" ways I can see how people would give up if his followers won't work on reconciling issues. But you seem to be open to reconciliation, maybe from your Quaker background, so I find this ironic and opposite of what I would expect! I can't imagine how anyone could hate openmindedness.

Sorry to sidetrack as well. If you'd like to share ideas, we can do that on other threads, or by email sending links back and forth with resources or ideas. I believe the issues of immigration solutions and restitution for human trafficking are unifying enough to bring people together and quit all the divisive politics that isn't solving these problems. The problems are complicated and divisive, but the solutions by definition would resolve things!
I think these will take everyone coming together, from all parties, combining the best ideas.

Take care and thanks for sharing, Jimmy!
Looking forward to hearing and reading more from you.

Yours truly,
Emily

P.S. I thought of starting a video channel and posting joint statements with me and diverse partners, like prochoice with prolife, and Republican with Democrat, asking help to support proposed solutions that bring people to agreement from opposing sides. Let me know if you have ideas for this. I can start a new thread for this, and maybe it would lead to making and posting videos encouraging others to do the same, and raise funds for projects people come up with as partners across political and religious lines. I would love that! lemme know.

 

[jtpr312]

Common behavior from our negro youth.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I wish PoliticalChic's position was an exaggeration but I fear it is not. how many other equally heinous acts happen every day but go unnoticed because they are not captured on video and put on the web.

blacks seem to have turned attacking innocents into a game that they find entertaining.

1. "equally heinous acts happen every day but go unnoticed..."
Well....let's notice 'em.



2. "blacks seem to have turned attacking innocents into a game..."

“After controlling for single motherhood, the difference between black and white crime rates disappeared.”
Progressive Policy Institute, 1990, quoted by David Blankenhorn, “Fatherless America: Confronting Our Most Urgent Social Problem,” New York, Harper Perennial, 1996, p.31

Blame the people and factors that resulted in single motherhood.

sorry PC but the strong correlation between single motherhood and crime from 1960-1995 has weakened considerably as the out of wedlock birth rate has exploded while the violent crime rate has gone down.

To what do you attribute your observation "blacks seem to have turned attacking innocents into a game..." if not upbringing?

 

[emilynghiem]

sorry PC but the strong correlation between single motherhood and crime from 1960-1995 has weakened considerably as the out of wedlock birth rate has exploded while the violent crime rate has gone down.

I don't think it requires statistics to assess the causes of violent crime as stemming from
unresolved or unforgiven conflicts or issues that the person fails to get help to address and resolve in productive ways.

I would say this same pattern may "correlate" with relationship abuse and sexual abuse,
where people end up with broken families and broken relations for the same reason: failing to resolve past issues that repeat later or project onto future situations.

The common factor is not fixing problems so that they repeat another generation.

 

[IanC]

1. "equally heinous acts happen every day but go unnoticed..."
Well....let's notice 'em.



2. "blacks seem to have turned attacking innocents into a game..."

“After controlling for single motherhood, the difference between black and white crime rates disappeared.”
Progressive Policy Institute, 1990, quoted by David Blankenhorn, “Fatherless America: Confronting Our Most Urgent Social Problem,” New York, Harper Perennial, 1996, p.31

Blame the people and factors that resulted in single motherhood.

sorry PC but the strong correlation between single motherhood and crime from 1960-1995 has weakened considerably as the out of wedlock birth rate has exploded while the violent crime rate has gone down.

To what do you attribute your observation "blacks seem to have turned attacking innocents into a game..." if not upbringing?

I concur it is upbringing plus other factors. your highlighted comment said that the difference between black and white crime rates disappeared if you controlled for single parenthood, and that is what I am disagreeing with. the coincidental overly strong correlation up until the mid 90's has weakened considerably but the public is still using it for shaping their opinion.

 

[IanC]

sorry PC but the strong correlation between single motherhood and crime from 1960-1995 has weakened considerably as the out of wedlock birth rate has exploded while the violent crime rate has gone down.

I don't think it requires statistics to assess the causes of violent crime as stemming from
unresolved or unforgiven conflicts or issues that the person fails to get help to address and resolve in productive ways.

I would say this same pattern may "correlate" with relationship abuse and sexual abuse,
where people end up with broken families and broken relations for the same reason: failing to resolve past issues that repeat later or project onto future situations.

The common factor is not fixing problems so that they repeat another generation.

Im not sure what you want me to understand from that.

we cant excuse an abuser just because they were abused themselves. we cant excuse the student in the video because he didnt think it was serious, or perhaps he even thought it was justified through some bizarre thought process where he thought whites deserved it through group guilt. plus he obviously enjoyed it, which is very scary

 

[emilynghiem]

Re:

You see, this is what bothers me about most republicans: Because you do not like someone or do not like something he/she did that was not the crime of murder, does not give you the right to wipe him/her off the face of Planet Earth -

I fail to understand how people purporting to be of godly ideas (and historically not!) are always so quick to condone or advocate murder. So strange.

Re:

You've suggested that the state begin murdering teenagers for crimes that don't even meet the death penalty threshold for adult offenses. That's simply ridiculous, and doesn't deserve a serious response.

A 15-year-old is still, essentially, a child. His brain is still developing, his personality is still forming. There is zero evidence that a child who commits a violent offense at age 15 will remain violent for the rest of his life, and tons of evidence that the majority of juveniles are capable of change.
Your position is so absurd and out of touch with reality that it's simply nuts.

Dear PC, LAfrique and Catzmeow:
Looking at these quotes above, the question I've been trying to address myself is
how do we keep a consistent enforcement of "Retributive Justice" as a deterrent,
while making sure this is not abused, and allowing for "Restorative Justice" programs
to correct and prevent crimes so as to reduce the need to apply punitive measures.

So LAfrique may criticize the strong-arm "Republican" approach of shoot first ask questions later, but this does work in terms of deterring people from testing authority who NEED that kind of "bigger bully" approach. It has its place, and we just need to make sure arms and force are always used for DEFENSE and to enforce peace and deter offenses, not to incite or commit them. I agree with LAfrique and have the same objections to abuses!

And I agree with CM to assess situations fairly, so we CAN apply preventative and corrective measures instead of failing and punishing people where everyone loses and pays for it. The reason I believe the country has moved from corporal and capital punishment to where we are now with the opposite extreme of laxness, is we are meant to master how to prevent and correct abuses WITHOUT relying on force or threat of punishment. We are meant to move from reliance on retributive justice, to corrections and restitution based on restorative justice; and while we are in different stages, then both are needed for different cases.

How do we perfect the use of both approaches, and prevent the abuse of either one?

In general I am progressive and lean liberal/Democrat because I know that Restorative Justice programs work to cut crime and break the cycle of poverty/abuses causing it. However, I do recognize the need to keep the strong approach, that if you do not take responsibility for corrections and restitution, then yes you should face worse penalties. I even believe citizenship could be revoked for people who insist on abusing freedoms to violate the rights of others, instead of getting help for whatever criminal or social problems they are having. We only have freedom to work on prevention and correction if there is the unrelenting enforcement of punishment should people refuse; there must be consequences for actions.

I find we need both, and just need to work together to make sure we apply the right approach where it is most effective. Thank you for sharing your honest input and ideas. As more people engage in similar dialogue, I believe this will lead to more effective policies that combine the best points from all parties and programs that seek to reform the criminal justice system.

 

[emilynghiem]

Im not sure what you want me to understand from that.

we cant excuse an abuser just because they were abused themselves. we cant excuse the student in the video because he didnt think it was serious, or perhaps he even thought it was justified through some bizarre thought process where he thought whites deserved it through group guilt. plus he obviously enjoyed it, which is very scary

A. I guess the original point I was trying to make was
I agree you can't say that the single mother issue is the cause,
but you can see how both situations "correlate" and stem from a common cause.

B. As for your new comment no, the point is NOT to "excuse" it but
to CORRECT it by understanding both the cause and effect. If we KNOW that letting issues go unresolved cause both personal and/or potentially criminal problems later, then
this should motivate us to correct that so it DOES prevent problems on all these levels.

We should NOT just wait for it to result in a crime where the state gets involved.

And since the state cannot intervene BEFORE a crime is committed,
that is where we either need to take more personally responsibility for prevention
through other avenues instead of relying on the state, or perhaps redefine
levels of abuse under "health and safety" codes that can be enforced
voluntarily and locally. I believe our school and health systems may be heading for this.
So instead of overburdening the criminal justice system, more resources and responsibility for prevention may go into the health and school systems, and redirect funding there,
which would also allow for more direct accountability per community and less bureaucracy if this is set up right. I would consider requiring schools to teach and assist with conflict resolution training where students and citizens in general are required to learn and agree to follow laws, and even sign agreements to take responsibility for restitution in cases of damages caused by abuses and violations. I think that should be required for citizenship.

 

[IanC]

Im not sure what you want me to understand from that.

we cant excuse an abuser just because they were abused themselves. we cant excuse the student in the video because he didnt think it was serious, or perhaps he even thought it was justified through some bizarre thought process where he thought whites deserved it through group guilt. plus he obviously enjoyed it, which is very scary

A. I guess the original point I was trying to make was
I agree you can't say that the single mother issue is the cause,
but you can see how both situations "correlate" and stem from a common cause.

B. As for your new comment no, the point is NOT to "excuse" it but
to CORRECT it by understanding both the cause and effect. If we KNOW that letting issues go unresolved cause both personal and/or potentially criminal problems later, then
this should motivate us to correct that so it DOES prevent problems on all these levels.

We should NOT just wait for it to result in a crime where the state gets involved.

And since the state cannot intervene BEFORE a crime is committed,
that is where we either need to take more personally responsibility for prevention
through other avenues instead of relying on the state, or perhaps redefine
levels of abuse under "health and safety" codes that can be enforced
voluntarily and locally. I believe our school and health systems may be heading for this.
So instead of overburdening the criminal justice system, more resources and responsibility for prevention may go into the health and school systems, and redirect funding there,
which would also allow for more direct accountability per community and less bureaucracy if this is set up right. I would consider requiring schools to teach and assist with conflict resolution training where students and citizens in general are required to learn and agree to follow laws, and even sign agreements to take responsibility for restitution in cases of damages caused by abuses and violations. I think that should be required for citizenship.

I applaud your enthusiasm but I also think you are very naive. you cant legislate morality.

 

[emilynghiem]

I applaud your enthusiasm but I also think you are very naive. you cant legislate morality.

I agree you can't legislate morality.
But you can require people to either pay restitution, or sign agreements up front
that they will take social and financial responsibility for damages they cause
instead of charging this to taxpayers.

Instead of requiring people to buy 'health insurance'
if people had insurance to cover costs to other people for any acts of crime or corruption,
then people with bad records would have to pay more than people with clean records.

 

[jtpr312]

HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT SUCKER PUNCHES TEACHER KNOCKING HIM UNCONSCIOUS! - YouTube




1. "PITTSBURGH (AP) -- A teenager who sucker punched a schoolteacher in a downtown alley - an attack caught on surveillance video - apparently picked the victim at random, police and school officials said.

2. The attack happened last Thursday at about 3:30 p.m. The surveillance video, which Pittsburgh police used to make an arrest Tuesday,...

3. ....the 15-year-old suspect walking with several other youths past 50-year-old James Addlespurger.




4. Addlespurger, who teaches English at an arts high school, was walking in the other direction and did not appear to interact with the youths in any way.

5. The suspect suddenly approached Addlespurger and punched him in the head. The teacher fell hard onto a curb as the teen and the others continued walking.

6. ...there's something very terrifying about it," said Pittsburgh Councilman R. Daniel Lavelle, whose district includes downtown. "In the video it appears


he was laughing afterwards,


which is very disturbing."

7. ... taken to a juvenile detention center on a charge of simple assault but was not identified ...




8. City schools spokeswoman Ebony Pugh said the school system can't take any formal action against the suspect because the attack happened off school grounds and after the school day had ended.


9. The suspect attends a school for troubled youths ... there's no evidence the suspect, or his friends, knew Addlespurger or exchanged words with him."
News from The Associated Press




I see no reason for this thug to be allowed to walk the earth.

Did or has James Addlespurger died? The death penalty is reserved for murders or death the direct result of a crime. Please, we just do not go about killing people for something wrong that they did that annoys us.

You see, this is what bothers me about most republicans: Because you do not like someone or do not like something he/she did that was not the crime of murder, does not give you the right to wipe him/her off the face of Planet Earth -

I fail to understand how people purporting to be of godly ideas (and historically not!) are always so quick to condone or advocate murder. So strange.

This little pos has shown he is unable to live among a civilized people. He's a savage little monster that needs a bullet behind the ear and we need laws that will give scum like him exactly that. Why in God's name should violent, unpredictrable, savage scum like that be allowed to live alongside human beings and why should hard working citizens be forced to feed, clothe and house him in a prison, not to mention take care of his medical expenses, for the rest of his life. Don't give me that God crap, God's law says to exectute people for many, many, many crimes other than murder so that argument won't fly. Under God's law little savages like this would be put to death just like they should be in any decent society. PS, Capital Punishment is not murder, it's justice.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Re:

You see, this is what bothers me about most republicans: Because you do not like someone or do not like something he/she did that was not the crime of murder, does not give you the right to wipe him/her off the face of Planet Earth -

I fail to understand how people purporting to be of godly ideas (and historically not!) are always so quick to condone or advocate murder. So strange.

Re:

You've suggested that the state begin murdering teenagers for crimes that don't even meet the death penalty threshold for adult offenses. That's simply ridiculous, and doesn't deserve a serious response.

A 15-year-old is still, essentially, a child. His brain is still developing, his personality is still forming. There is zero evidence that a child who commits a violent offense at age 15 will remain violent for the rest of his life, and tons of evidence that the majority of juveniles are capable of change.
Your position is so absurd and out of touch with reality that it's simply nuts.

Dear PC, LAfrique and Catzmeow:
Looking at these quotes above, the question I've been trying to address myself is
how do we keep a consistent enforcement of "Retributive Justice" as a deterrent,
while making sure this is not abused, and allowing for "Restorative Justice" programs
to correct and prevent crimes so as to reduce the need to apply punitive measures.

So LAfrique may criticize the strong-arm "Republican" approach of shoot first ask questions later, but this does work in terms of deterring people from testing authority who NEED that kind of "bigger bully" approach. It has its place, and we just need to make sure arms and force are always used for DEFENSE and to enforce peace and deter offenses, not to incite or commit them. I agree with LAfrique and have the same objections to abuses!

And I agree with CM to assess situations fairly, so we CAN apply preventative and corrective measures instead of failing and punishing people where everyone loses and pays for it. The reason I believe the country has moved from corporal and capital punishment to where we are now with the opposite extreme of laxness, is we are meant to master how to prevent and correct abuses WITHOUT relying on force or threat of punishment. We are meant to move from reliance on retributive justice, to corrections and restitution based on restorative justice; and while we are in different stages, then both are needed for different cases.

How do we perfect the use of both approaches, and prevent the abuse of either one?

In general I am progressive and lean liberal/Democrat because I know that Restorative Justice programs work to cut crime and break the cycle of poverty/abuses causing it. However, I do recognize the need to keep the strong approach, that if you do not take responsibility for corrections and restitution, then yes you should face worse penalties. I even believe citizenship could be revoked for people who insist on abusing freedoms to violate the rights of others, instead of getting help for whatever criminal or social problems they are having. We only have freedom to work on prevention and correction if there is the unrelenting enforcement of punishment should people refuse; there must be consequences for actions.

I find we need both, and just need to work together to make sure we apply the right approach where it is most effective. Thank you for sharing your honest input and ideas. As more people engage in similar dialogue, I believe this will lead to more effective policies that combine the best points from all parties and programs that seek to reform the criminal justice system.

"...break the cycle of poverty/abuses causing it."

It's a lack of character that causes crime.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Interesting. You language mirrors in many ways my experiences as a Republican. I am a Republican, but I can tell you that most of them hate my guts. I remain one because fundamentally I cannot escape being one. In many ways I find it far more productive to challenge my fellow Republicans, for many of the same reasons you find for challenging your fellow Democrats.

I think ultimately it comes down to progress. The derisiveness and division of our country is going to kill us, for all the same reasons Abraham Lincoln believed that a house divided against itself cannot stand. This is as appropriate now as it was then because the political and cultural polarization of the U.S. now is every bit as extreme as it was during the Civil War, arguably more so. For me to challenge Democrats only drives the wedge deeper, while to challenge Republicans may actually encourage some level of cooperation, even if I fail miserably most of the time.

Perhaps I am simply a moderate who refuses to admit it. That's possible. Be that as it may, I see no need to turn in my Republican badge, even if many within the party despise me.

Sorry to contribute to what seems to be a rather big diversion from the OP. Please carry on.

Dear Jimmy: I think this is wonderful, and I encourage you to keep on, and don't stop until you succeed. I have a Republican friend who ran for President to study the system, and works on ideas for bringing it to the level where every day business people can participate.
If you'd like to partner on project ideas, or share resources and contacts online, the same things that help me will likely help you, and probably with greater success. If you want to email me, I'm at emilynghiem at hotmail or yahoo, and my website for Constitutional outreach and education is ethics-commission.net I am puzzled why you would be so hated as a Republican. I mean, there are gay Log Cabin Republicans, pro-choice Republicans, even Republicans for Obama. Surely there is room for your ideas, and I find it hard to believe for someone like you who seems so amenable to peacemaking across lines.
For someone like Ron Paul who may stir things up in "divisive" ways I can see how people would give up if his followers won't work on reconciling issues. But you seem to be open to reconciliation, maybe from your Quaker background, so I find this ironic and opposite of what I would expect! I can't imagine how anyone could hate openmindedness.

Sorry to sidetrack as well. If you'd like to share ideas, we can do that on other threads, or by email sending links back and forth with resources or ideas. I believe the issues of immigration solutions and restitution for human trafficking are unifying enough to bring people together and quit all the divisive politics that isn't solving these problems. The problems are complicated and divisive, but the solutions by definition would resolve things!
I think these will take everyone coming together, from all parties, combining the best ideas.

Take care and thanks for sharing, Jimmy!
Looking forward to hearing and reading more from you.

Yours truly,
Emily

P.S. I thought of starting a video channel and posting joint statements with me and diverse partners, like prochoice with prolife, and Republican with Democrat, asking help to support proposed solutions that bring people to agreement from opposing sides. Let me know if you have ideas for this. I can start a new thread for this, and maybe it would lead to making and posting videos encouraging others to do the same, and raise funds for projects people come up with as partners across political and religious lines. I would love that! lemme know.

I appreciate it, Emily. No, my participation in politics is more ideological and casually interactive, I mean, besides voting, that is.

What I am referring to is coming to a site like this, where there is a wealth of members who exhibit the kind of cultural schism of which I speak. I can be a bit confrontational, and the tendency is for some to assume that I am a liberal Democratic, simply by virtue of the fact that I am challenging a rank-and-file viewpoint that I am supposed to tow because I am a Republican. Combine that with my sometime caustic manner and voila, instant drama.

But to repeat myself, I am earnestly troubled over the level of polarization today. I've been voting for 26 years now, and I have seen anything like it. Everything is a war. There is this mile-wide line drawn in the sand and if you step on that line at any time, look out, you might as well be the enemy.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Im not sure what you want me to understand from that.

we cant excuse an abuser just because they were abused themselves. we cant excuse the student in the video because he didnt think it was serious, or perhaps he even thought it was justified through some bizarre thought process where he thought whites deserved it through group guilt. plus he obviously enjoyed it, which is very scary

A. I guess the original point I was trying to make was
I agree you can't say that the single mother issue is the cause,
but you can see how both situations "correlate" and stem from a common cause.

B. As for your new comment no, the point is NOT to "excuse" it but
to CORRECT it by understanding both the cause and effect. If we KNOW that letting issues go unresolved cause both personal and/or potentially criminal problems later, then
this should motivate us to correct that so it DOES prevent problems on all these levels.

We should NOT just wait for it to result in a crime where the state gets involved.

And since the state cannot intervene BEFORE a crime is committed,
that is where we either need to take more personally responsibility for prevention
through other avenues instead of relying on the state, or perhaps redefine
levels of abuse under "health and safety" codes that can be enforced
voluntarily and locally. I believe our school and health systems may be heading for this.
So instead of overburdening the criminal justice system, more resources and responsibility for prevention may go into the health and school systems, and redirect funding there,
which would also allow for more direct accountability per community and less bureaucracy if this is set up right. I would consider requiring schools to teach and assist with conflict resolution training where students and citizens in general are required to learn and agree to follow laws, and even sign agreements to take responsibility for restitution in cases of damages caused by abuses and violations. I think that should be required for citizenship.

1. "We should NOT just wait for it to result in a crime where the state gets involved."

The state begins the cycle!

‘Welfare’ as a wholly owned subsidiary of the government, and its main result is the incentivizing of a disrespect for oneself, and for the entity that provides the welfare. As more folks in a poor neighborhood languish with little or no work, entire local culture begins to change: daily work is no longer the expected social norm. Extended periods of hanging around the neighborhood, neither working nor going to school becoming more and more socially acceptable.

a. Since productive activity not making any economic sense because of the work disincentives of the welfare plantation, other kinds of activities proliferate: drug and alcohol abuse, crime, recreational sex, illegitimacy, and family breakup are the new social norms, as does the culture of violence.
From chapter five of "America's Ticking Bankruptcy Bomb," Ferrara.


2. "...since the state cannot intervene BEFORE a crime is committed,..."

Really?

Talk about doing damage to the President and see what happens.

 

[emilynghiem]

Death penalty sought in killing of Montgomery County mom, abduction of baby - Houston Chronicle

Dear PC and CM:
Here is another case about the death penalty.
By the letter of the law, this qualifies as a capital case.
But if you look at the circumstances, the woman was in some kind of extreme mental condition after suffering a miscarriage, where she kidnapped a baby of a different race than hers would have been to pass off as her own. I think it is clear she had mental issues and was sick.

So it could be argued that she needs treatment, and unfortunately she didn't get help in time, and this cost a young mother her life.

Comparing this case with the given one in the OP, this seems the opposite situation: where by the "spirit" of the offender's actions, PC is asking why isn't that assessed as seriously as punishable in itself, instead of only going by the letter of the law where someone has to be killed before getting the death penalty.

Looking at the two together, you can see why capital punishment is disputed as arbitrary and swayed by too many factors for it to be administered justly and equally across the board.

My friends who are against the death penalty simply DO NOT trust the flawed judicial system to handles such an irreversible decision and responsibility, so many want it banned as not a choice. However, like abortion, I believe the choice can remain legal, and we need to do a better job not abusing that choice where one day it will not need to be used anymore at all.

But cases like these demonstrate why so many people do not trust human beings to decide executions because there are too many factors and the legal system is too easily manipulated!

That is why I advocate Restorative Justice approaches to correction and restitution; if you are going to invest extensive time and resources investigating all the causes and factors, why not use that to work out a plan for meaningful restitution and prevention instead of wasting resources just fighting for guilt or innocence?
Why not make it a REQUIREMENT that people cooperate fully with authorities in order to QUALIFY for the state providing for the cost of defense and negotiating a restitution plan?
Why is our legal system (and our public defense) abused to get people out of crimes and thus rewarding people for hiding or lying about what happened and why? That is what I would most like to see changed. I think we could re-balance the economy by stopping this waste!
And investing resources and restitution into school and health programs to PREVENT crime by earlier intervention and treatment.

 

[emilynghiem]

The state begins the cycle!

‘Welfare’ as a wholly owned subsidiary of the government, and its main result is the incentivizing of a disrespect for oneself, and for the entity that provides the welfare. As more folks in a poor neighborhood languish with little or no work, entire local culture begins to change: daily work is no longer the expected social norm. Extended periods of hanging around the neighborhood, neither working nor going to school becoming more and more socially acceptable.

a. Since productive activity not making any economic sense because of the work disincentives of the welfare plantation, other kinds of activities proliferate: drug and alcohol abuse, crime, recreational sex, illegitimacy, and family breakup are the new social norms, as does the culture of violence.
From chapter five of "America's Ticking Bankruptcy Bomb," Ferrara.

Dear PC: Given there are plenty of people who are NOT victims of the system, it isn't the state causing this but the people abusing the state for both their welfare without working and/or for political power based on selling this to poor people for votes. I would say, rather, that abuse of the state ENABLES and REWARDS it but doesn't cause it.

People are responsible for their own decisions to keep abusing the system this way or to refuse and to change it instead. The govt is ideally of the people, so it is our responsibility.
Otherwise, PC I TOTALLY agree with the SPIRIT of what you are saying, that it is unhealthy and unsustainable, and the state is set up to fail with overreliance and bureaucracy.

I agree people need to take responsibility; but accepting it on ourselves is the first step in that process, not just saying the state is doing this and there is nothing we can do but "elect more people to change it" BS we can start by investing directly into programs ourselves, and writing that 100% off our taxes as business expenses and QUIT FUNDING the nonsense.

If as many donors invested DIRECTLY into schools and health programs run by churches, businesses or nonprofits, as the contributors to "political campaigns" in the millions if not billions, we could have already funded our own social and economic revolution by now!

So blaming the state and depending on elected leaders to fight our battles for us is NOT the way to claim responsibility back and compel people to start doing differently.

I agree with you more than you might think or expect.
Many of my friends say I should be a Republican instead of a Democrat,
so maybe over time you will see why since we agree on so much about
what is wrong with the current system and politics that keep this nonsense going
instead of collaborating on joint solutions that all parties would actually AGREE ON!

2. "...since the state cannot intervene BEFORE a crime is committed,..."

Really?

Talk about doing damage to the President and see what happens.

Good example. Yes, making death threats is already a felony and is a chargeable offense.

What I mean is given cases like the LDS child abuse ring,
the authorities had to make sure they had enough evidence collected that was
solid legally, before making the raid. That is why it took so long.

Other rape incest and child abuse cases, like at Penn State, also rely on evidence
and not just hearsay, so unfortunately the damage continues in the meantime.

Domestic violence issues and custody cases are also difficult because it is hard to determine the truth based on clashing reports of he said/she said to determine who is really the criminal threat and who is lying to get custody.

There is a limit and standard that must be met before the state can act; also there are limited resources where we simply cannot rely on police or courts to do all the work "after the fact"

Even with bullying cases, that have become issues of the state and courts now in TX,
there really should be greater responsibility taken locally by students and teachers to have some "in house" means of resolving these conflicts INSTEAD of waiting for these to become serious crimes and taking them to the state and courts.

People criticize the Christian education and recovery programs for being religious, but there really is value in earlier prevention and intervention instead of burdening the state with the problems caused by NOT having more focus on prevention and correction -- on the level that is most critical which is personal and spiritual and cannot be regulated by the state.

Where I would agree the state could intervene, is where criminal addictions including drug or alcohol abuse become threats to personal and public safety, then people could be ordered into counseling. Currently, since this is optional, and no counseling programs can be forced on people who must choose to forgive and to accept change by free will or it doesn't work,
that is where I would give communities and district "the choice" of making it a mandatory policy "within that community" that all residents agree to abide by a certain code of standards, and have a local system set up and run by residents or students of that program to redress grievances and resolve conflicts themselves. If they can localize this, then it could be "mandated" within that group, and not cross the line between church and state jurisdiction.
if people CHOOSE to follow certain rules, then it is by choice and not imposed by the state.

So that is where I believe we are heading, toward localized policies decided democraticaly instead of overburdening the state to try to decide all these cases from top down management which gets too bureaucratic. We need to solve more problems locally by reclaiming civic responsiblity for governance on the community level. And only use the state for collective issues of public roadways, national security, etc. We can handle more of the social issues ourselves, instead of relying on govt. Instead of electing this party or that party, we could use the parties to set up solutions and fund the programs we believe are best without forcing our candidates onto people who are working on other things in other ways.

So this would stop wasting so much money on political campaigns that do not solve problems that could be invested directly in solutions through the parties people CHOOSE to fund.

 

[emilynghiem]

"...break the cycle of poverty/abuses causing it."

It's a lack of character that causes crime.

More specifically, if there are unresolved or unforgiven conflicts which cause someone to compromise (instead of meeting all the standards equally, reconciling their will with that of others and of society etc).

So punishing someone for their acts "after the fact" does not necessarily address
"what is going to resolve" the initial conflicts they had to begin with.

The programs that I have seen which most effectively help people break out of compromising situations and conflicts all deal with counseling in healing, forgiving and correcting past patterns, etc. and do NOT focus on threatening judgment or punishment on the person. These programs may TEACH that this is the consequence if people keep going on the path they are on, so there is a purpose in having consistent punishment for crime.

Here is an example of a student from one of my friend's programs in Houston:
Smiley High grad who beat odds wins national award - Houston Chronicle

So you are right, that character makes the difference.

But even this young man and his friends too often fall into the same patterns as their incarcerated parents "had they not received help" and access to programs like No More Victims which gave them the support they needed to develop themselves and defy the odds against them. The cable movie made about Marilyn and her program is called Against the Odds, because it goes against the grain and pressures put on these kids where even some of the corrupt school officials were against them and expecting them to fail and go to jail (so they could blame the kids instead of the school).

Devon Wade is exceptional, and is now pursuing higher degrees with the purpose of researching why the program was able to help him break the cycle of crime and poverty, so that this can be replicated instead of the current criminal justice system that wastes resources creating more problems than it solves.

Even though he had the potential character, this would have been lost in the system if he didn't have access to the rare line of support that happened to be in his district. Most people, especially in his situation, do NOT have any such help at all.

So you can blame character, but how many people HAVE potential character
and yet fall victim to flaws? How can we make sure EVERYONE has support to access education, training and counseling so when things start to go wrong they are fixed in time?

It takes more than character to do this.
We need to set up our school systems, that even those who are failing miserable, even criminally sick and cannot live in society, have safe ways of being detained and housed while they receive help. I believe this will ultimately come from collaboration between church, nonprofit, business and govt resources to cover all the areas effectively. I can see communities setting up campuses and organizing jobs, internships, and resources to serve the populations in cost-effective ways, where no one has to pay for things they don't believe in, but everyone can contribute to build programs that issues they want to invest in resolving.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The state begins the cycle!

‘Welfare’ as a wholly owned subsidiary of the government, and its main result is the incentivizing of a disrespect for oneself, and for the entity that provides the welfare. As more folks in a poor neighborhood languish with little or no work, entire local culture begins to change: daily work is no longer the expected social norm. Extended periods of hanging around the neighborhood, neither working nor going to school becoming more and more socially acceptable.

a. Since productive activity not making any economic sense because of the work disincentives of the welfare plantation, other kinds of activities proliferate: drug and alcohol abuse, crime, recreational sex, illegitimacy, and family breakup are the new social norms, as does the culture of violence.
From chapter five of "America's Ticking Bankruptcy Bomb," Ferrara.

Dear PC: Given there are plenty of people who are NOT victims of the system, it isn't the state causing this but the people abusing the state for both their welfare without working and/or for political power based on selling this to poor people for votes. I would say, rather, that abuse of the state ENABLES and REWARDS it but doesn't cause it.

People are responsible for their own decisions to keep abusing the system this way or to refuse and to change it instead. The govt is ideally of the people, so it is our responsibility.
Otherwise, PC I TOTALLY agree with the SPIRIT of what you are saying, that it is unhealthy and unsustainable, and the state is set up to fail with overreliance and bureaucracy.

I agree people need to take responsibility; but accepting it on ourselves is the first step in that process, not just saying the state is doing this and there is nothing we can do but "elect more people to change it" BS we can start by investing directly into programs ourselves, and writing that 100% off our taxes as business expenses and QUIT FUNDING the nonsense.

If as many donors invested DIRECTLY into schools and health programs run by churches, businesses or nonprofits, as the contributors to "political campaigns" in the millions if not billions, we could have already funded our own social and economic revolution by now!

So blaming the state and depending on elected leaders to fight our battles for us is NOT the way to claim responsibility back and compel people to start doing differently.

I agree with you more than you might think or expect.
Many of my friends say I should be a Republican instead of a Democrat,
so maybe over time you will see why since we agree on so much about
what is wrong with the current system and politics that keep this nonsense going
instead of collaborating on joint solutions that all parties would actually AGREE ON!

2. "...since the state cannot intervene BEFORE a crime is committed,..."

Really?

Talk about doing damage to the President and see what happens.

Good example. Yes, making death threats is already a felony and is a chargeable offense.

What I mean is given cases like the LDS child abuse ring,
the authorities had to make sure they had enough evidence collected that was
solid legally, before making the raid. That is why it took so long.

Other rape incest and child abuse cases, like at Penn State, also rely on evidence
and not just hearsay, so unfortunately the damage continues in the meantime.

Domestic violence issues and custody cases are also difficult because it is hard to determine the truth based on clashing reports of he said/she said to determine who is really the criminal threat and who is lying to get custody.

There is a limit and standard that must be met before the state can act; also there are limited resources where we simply cannot rely on police or courts to do all the work "after the fact"

Even with bullying cases, that have become issues of the state and courts now in TX,
there really should be greater responsibility taken locally by students and teachers to have some "in house" means of resolving these conflicts INSTEAD of waiting for these to become serious crimes and taking them to the state and courts.

People criticize the Christian education and recovery programs for being religious, but there really is value in earlier prevention and intervention instead of burdening the state with the problems caused by NOT having more focus on prevention and correction -- on the level that is most critical which is personal and spiritual and cannot be regulated by the state.

Where I would agree the state could intervene, is where criminal addictions including drug or alcohol abuse become threats to personal and public safety, then people could be ordered into counseling. Currently, since this is optional, and no counseling programs can be forced on people who must choose to forgive and to accept change by free will or it doesn't work,
that is where I would give communities and district "the choice" of making it a mandatory policy "within that community" that all residents agree to abide by a certain code of standards, and have a local system set up and run by residents or students of that program to redress grievances and resolve conflicts themselves. If they can localize this, then it could be "mandated" within that group, and not cross the line between church and state jurisdiction.
if people CHOOSE to follow certain rules, then it is by choice and not imposed by the state.

So that is where I believe we are heading, toward localized policies decided democraticaly instead of overburdening the state to try to decide all these cases from top down management which gets too bureaucratic. We need to solve more problems locally by reclaiming civic responsiblity for governance on the community level. And only use the state for collective issues of public roadways, national security, etc. We can handle more of the social issues ourselves, instead of relying on govt. Instead of electing this party or that party, we could use the parties to set up solutions and fund the programs we believe are best without forcing our candidates onto people who are working on other things in other ways.

So this would stop wasting so much money on political campaigns that do not solve problems that could be invested directly in solutions through the parties people CHOOSE to fund.

Why do I have the sense that you are an insurance salesman?

 

[PoliticalChic]

"Two teenage brothers have been charged in connection with the murder of 12-year-old Autumn Pasquale, who disappeared from her New Jersey home this weekend and was found in a recycling bin Monday night.

The boys, ages 15 and 17, were neighbors of Pasquale, who was last seen alive riding her bicycle on Saturday in her neighborhood in Clayton, N.J., police said today.

Police said that Pasquale's injuries were consistent with strangulation, and that there was no sign of sexual assault. They believe she was lured to the boys' home on Saturday."
Two Teens Arrested in Death of NJ 12-Year-Old Autumn Pasquale - ABC News


Same question.

 

[syrenn]

HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT SUCKER PUNCHES TEACHER KNOCKING HIM UNCONSCIOUS! - YouTube




1. "PITTSBURGH (AP) -- A teenager who sucker punched a schoolteacher in a downtown alley - an attack caught on surveillance video - apparently picked the victim at random, police and school officials said.

2. The attack happened last Thursday at about 3:30 p.m. The surveillance video, which Pittsburgh police used to make an arrest Tuesday,...

3. ....the 15-year-old suspect walking with several other youths past 50-year-old James Addlespurger.




4. Addlespurger, who teaches English at an arts high school, was walking in the other direction and did not appear to interact with the youths in any way.

5. The suspect suddenly approached Addlespurger and punched him in the head. The teacher fell hard onto a curb as the teen and the others continued walking.

6. ...there's something very terrifying about it," said Pittsburgh Councilman R. Daniel Lavelle, whose district includes downtown. "In the video it appears


he was laughing afterwards,


which is very disturbing."

7. ... taken to a juvenile detention center on a charge of simple assault but was not identified ...




8. City schools spokeswoman Ebony Pugh said the school system can't take any formal action against the suspect because the attack happened off school grounds and after the school day had ended.


9. The suspect attends a school for troubled youths ... there's no evidence the suspect, or his friends, knew Addlespurger or exchanged words with him."
News from The Associated Press




I see no reason for this thug to be allowed to walk the earth.

I am very pro death penalty.... but this is NO way DP case.... not even close.

Though i would have zero issue with a life without the possibility of parole sentence.

sorry... this kind of thing is just human garbage.