Why is Obamacare unconstitutional but Medicare is not?

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Brilliant defense. Just tell me I'm stupid because I can understand plain English better than you.

But you don't have to take my word for it:

There isn't really any other conclusion that can be made. If government can tax for anything in the general wellfare and there are no other qualifiers to general wellfare other than what is stated in that clause then it can also define as it wishes what general wellfare means. If you can't see the problem with that there really is no helping you.

Spiderman.....to sum it up....he is saying that the federal government can not just take power it was not given under the constitution through legislation.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

That doesn't confer only spending power, its also regulatory. It gives congress the authority to regulate mail. Examples of regulating the mail include designating what materials may or may not be mailed, specifying federal criminal penalties for tampering with the mail (mail fraud, tampering with mail boxes, etc.) designating postal routes. It also means no system of mail delivery can be established without Congress's consent.

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

What does this have to do with spending? This clause gives the federal government the authority to register and enforce copyrights and patents - that's a regulatory power.

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Do you read anything I'm writing, because I've already told you how this isn't mere spending authority. The above clause gives Congress the authority to force civilians into military service - aka. the DRAFT.

To provide and maintain a Navy;

Again, this confers more than the power to spend money, it confers the power to enforce the will of the United States at sea. Clause 1 would give them the authority to build ships - but not the authority to send them after pirates.






Again, you don't have to take my word for it. See Butler v U.S. 1936.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Spiderman.....to sum it up....he is saying that the federal government can not just take power it was not given under the constitution through legislation.

That's great. I know that. Congress is authorized to tax and spend money for the general welfare. Its written in Article I Section 8 Clause 1.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I dont need a progressive judge's findings in a court case to understand the constitution.

The language in the document is clear and written as intended.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

According to the section of the constitution you quoted our actual progressive tax system is unconstitutional.

See the 16th amendment.

Also, I.8 only requires that the taxes be uniform throughout the States. This means you can't have the top tax bracket be 45% in idaho and 10% in Maine.

Our opinions will diverge on the meaning of "provide for the common defense and general welfare"

Yes, they will. That's why we have a democracy and an elected national legislature.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Spiderman.....to sum it up....he is saying that the federal government can not just take power it was not given under the constitution through legislation.

That's great. I know that. Congress is authorized to tax and spend money for the general welfare. Its written in Article I Section 8 Clause 1.

And section 8 of article one spells out what those specific things are.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

There isn't really any other conclusion that can be made. If government can tax for anything in the general wellfare and there are no other qualifiers to general wellfare other than what is stated in that clause then it can also define as it wishes what general wellfare means. If you can't see the problem with that there really is no helping you.

If you refuse to actually read any court opinions on this case then I don't know what the point of arguing with you is. I guess you're just one of those tax protester nutbags who thinks he is the sole authority on the meaning of the Constitution and that legal precedence is irrelevant, aren't you?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I dont need a progressive judge's findings in a court case to understand the constitution.

The majority opinion writer in Butler v U.S. was Owen Roberts was a Republican nominated by Herbert Hoover.

In Helvering v Davis, it was Benjamin N. Cardozo, who was also a Republican nominee.


You don't actually care about factual reality, do you?

The language in the document is clear and written as intended.

I know, that's what I've been trying to say.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

spiderman.....to sum it up....he is saying that the federal government can not just take power it was not given under the constitution through legislation.

that's great. I know that. Congress is authorized to tax and spend money for the general welfare. Its written in article i section 8 clause 1.

and section 8 of article one spells out what those specific things are.

the congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the united states;

to borrow money on the credit of the united states;

to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the indian tribes;

to establish an uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the united states;

to coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

to provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the united states;

to establish post offices and post roads;

to promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

to constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court;

to define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

to declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

to raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

to provide and maintain a navy;

to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

to provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the united states, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by congress;

to exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of congress, become the seat of the government of the united states, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings; and

to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this constitution in the government of the united states, or in any department or officer thereof.

those are regulatory powers, not spending powers

those are regulatory powers, not spending powers

those are regulatory powers, not spending powers

 

[Old Rocks]

there's no such thing as "obamacare" and neither the plans that are in the works nor medicare are unconstitutional.

Under the Constitution, Congress isn't authorized to run, regulate, or subsidize our health care. Because the Tenth Amendment prohibits the federal government from doing anything the Constitution doesn't expressly authorize it to do, federal intervention in health care is unconstitutional.

This is not an anachronistic interpretation of the Constitution, unless undertanding basic English is also anachronistic. Yes, the Supreme Court hasn't struck down unconstitutional programs such as Medicaid and the prescription drug benefit , but that's neither here nor there. For decades, the Supreme Court held that segregation was constitutional, and then, one day, poof! it wasn't. The Supreme Court does as the Supreme Court wants, not what the Constitution says.

The Partial Observer - The Tenth Amendment is the Best Medicine

I see. Then forcing people to buy auto insurance is unconstitutional?

And I love how quickly it gets down to the basis of the Conservatives arguement. That the government is only here as a coersive agent. It must never do anything for the citizens, unless, of course, they are very rich.

Government of the corperations, for the corperations, by the corperations, the Conservatives ideal. I already has a name, Fascism.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I see. Then forcing people to buy auto insurance is unconstitutional?

The federal government doesn't force people to buy auto-insurance, and neither do state governments. You can post a bond with the state equal to the minimum coverage in lieu of buying insurance. Or you can choose to not drive.

 

[Bern80]

those are regulatory powers, not spending powers

those are regulatory powers, not spending powers

those are regulatory powers, not spending powers

No they are not. Does the government just regulate the Navy? No, it PROVIDES the citizenry with a Navy. The government created the Navy. The armed forces are part of the U.S. government thus to be maintained the governmetn must SPEND MONEY ON THEM.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

no they are not. Does the government just regulate the navy? No, it created the navy and to do so it has to spend.

that clause also gives congress the authority to use force at sea its not just a spending clause i've already said this you can't read can you?

 

[Yurt]

how can you argue with someone who believes the GW means unlimited spending by the government for anything....

to him, general welfare means anything he deems appropriate and of course he gives congress an unlimited definition of general welfare....congress could buy each of a white teach shirt with "i love obama with all my heart" and that would be ok, because its for the general welfare....

 

[Bern80]

I see. Then forcing people to buy auto insurance is unconstitutional?

And I love how quickly it gets down to the basis of the Conservatives arguement. That the government is only here as a coersive agent. It must never do anything for the citizens, unless, of course, they are very rich.

Government of the corperations, for the corperations, by the corperations, the Conservatives ideal. I already has a name, Fascism.

It can do all kinds of things for people......as long as it is constitutional. It is simply mind boggling how people don't see how dangerous it is for those in power to be able to broadly define the term general wellfare.

The issue surrounding auto insurance is a states rights issue. It is your state that requires you to have it. But even then only if you choose to own your own car and drive.

 

[Bern80]

no they are not. Does the government just regulate the navy? No, it created the navy and to do so it has to spend.

that clause also gives congress the authority to use force at sea its not just a spending clause i've already said this you can't read can you?

I can, Can YOU?

"NOT SPENDING POWERS

Ring any fucking bells?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

When you're ready to start citing Supreme Court and/or lower court cases to back your opinion up, let me know.

 

[Bern80]

When you're ready to start citing Supreme Court and/or lower court cases to back your opinion up, let me know.

Now you're just being chicken shit. First you say in big bold letters that the enumerated specific powers of Section 8 don't refer to spending. Then in the very next post you say they aren't ONLY referring to spending (which by extension means you are saying the do indeed refer to spending). Pretty hard to debate someone who can't keep their own lies straight.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

When you're ready to start citing Supreme Court and/or lower court cases to back your opinion up, let me know.

 

[Yurt]

When you're ready to start citing Supreme Court and/or lower court cases to back your opinion up, let me know.

when you're ready to start citing supremee court and/or lower court ruling to back up your opinion that the specific waterboard treatment is torture, let me know.