Why I Am Not A Christian

[rikules]

What irriates me more than anything is the smug assumption that with education atheism must follow.

I'm educated, my sister is educated, my friends are educated and yet we're Christian. In fact, most of us were raised in atheist families...either admittedly or in practice. My mom claimed to be an atheist and was proud of it, as was her father.

"What irriates me more than anything is the smug assumption that with education atheism must follow"

that is, of course, ridiculous.

LOTS of well educated people have brains that are defective to the point that they still can't grasp that god is b.s. and doesn't exist.

you, for example.

I'm forever reading (on message boards) posts by seemingly intelligent and well educated people (NOT you, for example) who believe in all that god crap

my mother raised me as a christian

or, at least, she tried...

at a very tender age I began to move away from all that religious mumbo jumbo

eventually even my mother stopped believing

we never really discussed religion, even as I reached adulthood.

but recent conversations have given me the impression that she, too, thinks it is all nonsense

 

[PixieStix]

Hey Maddie, what if you are wrong? By the way, I am convinced.

What will you say when you stand before Him? Oops?

But I will pray for you

 

[syrenn]

Hey Maddie, what if you are wrong? By the way, I am convinced.
What will you say when you stand before Him? Oops?
But I will pray for you

Is just believing the price of entrance? Or is how you led your life, as in good or bad.

 

[rikules]

So what I'm hearing here is - correct me if I'm wrong - "I'm not a Christian because some people who happened to be church officials ACTUALLY EXPECTED ME TO RESPECT AUTHORITY FIGURES!!" The horror of it all, being expected as a child to respect one's elders and those in authority over you. And, of course, that NEVER happens to children outside of a church environment. Certainly, secular schools don't ever expect kids to be respectful of authority.

Then, further, what I'm hearing is "I got answers to my questions, but I didn't like them, so that means THEY WEREN'T ANSWERS!!" Have I got that right? It's not that there weren't any answers. It's that she decided they didn't suit her. One wonders if Mad would declare mathematics nonexistent if she decided that 4 pissed her off as the answer to 2+2.

Seems to me that the problem here is less that Christianity isn't measuring up than that Mad just has an attitude problem and expects the universe to adjust itself around her, and summarily rejects the existence and validity of anything that doesn't immediately fit the way SHE has decided the universe is going to be.

Oh, while we're demanding answers to snotty, insincere questions, perhaps someone can answer a snotty, completely sincere question for me: WHY, precisely, are we supposed to try to justify our beliefs to someone who can't even be bothered to respect them enough to ask polite, sincere questions about them? Mad thinks Christianity is bullshit. I think her atheism is bullshit. The only difference is, I don't feel the need to start a whole thread just to TELL her how full of shit I consider her to be.

"WHY, precisely, are we supposed to try to justify our beliefs to someone who can't even be bothered to respect them enough to ask polite, sincere questions about them? Mad thinks Christianity is bullshit. I think her atheism is bullshit. The only difference is, I don't feel the need to start a whole thread just to TELL her how full of shit I consider her to be"

in a recent poll asking who parents would have the MOST difficulty accepting their childs dating or marrying ATHEISTS ranked number 1....

over...muslims
rapists
murderers
drug addicts
and conservative talk show hosts


in other words

ATHEISTS and ATHEISTS are SO REVILED and LOATHED by the average American that they wold rather their child marry a muslim than an atheist

I've seen talk shows on fox and msnbc and cnn during which the hosts and the christian guests could not help but reveal their contempt and disgust with atheists and atheism

so
since so many christians have SO LITTLE respect for atheists and atheism I feel it is perfectly fair for atheists to feel the same way.

Once I learned that god (at the the god of the christian bible) was really a deranged lunatic with irrational and illogical beliefs and an extreme tendency to violence any hope of my reconciling with him was gone.

then
when I learned that god was a big fan of slavery...
well I just had to join the opposition

(this is the point where you reveal that you do NOT know the bible very well and DNEY that god promotes and condones and endorses slavery)

anyone who thinks that condemning people to eternel hell simply for being gay
or for having sex outside of marriage
or for getting divorced
or simply for NOT believing in god

is a jerk

 

[PixieStix]

Hey Maddie, what if you are wrong? By the way, I am convinced.
What will you say when you stand before Him? Oops?
But I will pray for you

Is just believing the price of entrance? Or is how you led your life, as in good or bad.

I studied the Bible, and the history for years, because my own personality just will not allow me to believe something wiithout much thought, logic and evidence, and have found nothing matters more than believing, Nothing.

For if you believe, you will understand that He paid the price for all sin, past present and future, not that it gives us a license to be bad, but it gives us a reason to be good and grateful

 

[syrenn]

Hey Maddie, what if you are wrong? By the way, I am convinced.
What will you say when you stand before Him? Oops?
But I will pray for you

Is just believing the price of entrance? Or is how you led your life, as in good or bad.

I studied the Bible, and the history for years, because my own personality just will not allow me to believe something wiithout much thought, logic and evidence, and have found nothing matters more than believing, Nothing.
For if you believe, you will understand that He paid the price for all sin, past present and future, not that it gives us a license to be bad, but it gives us a reason to be good and grateful

Alright, specific in terms of a non believer you say may be wrong and have to answer for it later by standing in front of god. What then?

Again is believing the price of entrance?

 

[PixieStix]

Is just believing the price of entrance? Or is how you led your life, as in good or bad.

I studied the Bible, and the history for years, because my own personality just will not allow me to believe something wiithout much thought, logic and evidence, and have found nothing matters more than believing, Nothing.
For if you believe, you will understand that He paid the price for all sin, past present and future, not that it gives us a license to be bad, but it gives us a reason to be good and grateful

Alright, specific in terms of a non believer you say may be wrong and have to answer for it later by standing in front of god. What then?

Again is believing the price of entrance?

Yes, it is.

 

[syrenn]

I studied the Bible, and the history for years, because my own personality just will not allow me to believe something wiithout much thought, logic and evidence, and have found nothing matters more than believing, Nothing.
For if you believe, you will understand that He paid the price for all sin, past present and future, not that it gives us a license to be bad, but it gives us a reason to be good and grateful

Alright, specific in terms of a non believer you say may be wrong and have to answer for it later by standing in front of god. What then?

Again is believing the price of entrance?

Yes, it is.

Now I am not beating up on you PS so please dont think I am putting you on the spot.

So what you are saying it makes no difference if Maddie lives her life as a model of kindness and consideration,truth and love. She makes all the right decisions and always does the right thing. More or less a saint. This all forgiving god will not let her in because she is a mistaken non believer?

What happens to the believer who is a fring evil person? Not bad enough to go to hell but dam bad in many aspects of life. Because they are a believer will they get in?

 

[rikules]

Hey Maddie, what if you are wrong? By the way, I am convinced.

What will you say when you stand before Him? Oops?

But I will pray for you

I know what I would say...


"god...you are a jerk!

punishing people for such petty offenses is sick

NOBODY deserves to burn in hell forever simply for having sex outside of marriage
or getting divorced
or being gay
or for just not believing in you

plenty of DECENT and GOOD and HONORABLE people indulge in these acts andthey do NOT deserve to be punished for all eternity...

god
you are a sick bastard
and you should seek help

and
one last thing
you are completely wrong about slavery

slavery is NOT acceptable!

slavery is BAD!

now...go to your room and think about what you've done

and I don't want you to come out until you are ready to apoligize to ALL of mankind"

 

[Avatar4321]

I know what I would say...


"god...you are a jerk!

punishing people for such petty offenses is sick

NOBODY deserves to burn in hell forever simply for having sex outside of marriage
or getting divorced
or being gay
or for just not believing in you

plenty of DECENT and GOOD and HONORABLE people indulge in these acts andthey do NOT deserve to be punished for all eternity...

god
you are a sick bastard
and you should seek help

and
one last thing
you are completely wrong about slavery

slavery is NOT acceptable!

slavery is BAD!

now...go to your room and think about what you've done

and I don't want you to come out until you are ready to apoligize to ALL of mankind"

I find it mildly amusing that you presume to tell an all powerful being what is right and what is wrong rather than to learn directly from Him. You have an incorrect understanding of God and yet somehow it's His fault.

 

[Againsheila]

I can believe God exists, but I cannot believe in an After-Life. Dead is dead. Finito. The notion that you can live an evil life and still get into Heaven because you know the magic words is so preposterous to me I can hardly believe that anyone buys it. And the notion of "saving people after they have died" is ridiculous. If there is no personal responsibility then we are all savages.

I believe in Karma and therefore I believe in life after death. I also believe in purgatory. I do not believe a murderer is going straight to heaven just because he believes in Jesus or that a non-christian is going to hell just because they have never met Jesus.

 

[Madeline]

It's been very interesting, reading the posts since I was last on here to reply. I am delighted we have a dialogue going, folks. I'm surprised only Cecille showed up to condemn "the non-believer", but if this survives long perhaps others will join her.

I dunno if it's fair to say I'm "angry at the Clergy who were running the orphanage". I'm certainly outraged at the RCC's sex scandals and how they've been handled, but outrage is not anger.

Anger is personal. I would guess that every clergy who ran that orphanage is dead now. It has, after all, been forty years and none of them were young. If I had received Religious Instruction from people I loved, admired and wanted to emulate I suppose there's a greater chance that I'd have been a believer. But really, that's no more than saying that if things had been different, they wouldn't be the same.

It was what it was. I'm damned fortunate that I survived, was not molested, and went on to have a great life. I KNOW how fortunate I am; I even have some survivor guilt, as only one other girl I grew up with survived into adulthood that I know of. Most lives ended in suicide, drugs or other outward signs of the despair they had been forced down into.

Believe it or not, there were benefits that flowed from being orphaned and raised by wolves. For one, I have the sense of accomplishment that comes with doing something very difficult all by yourself. For another, there is almost nothing anyone can tell me that shocks me -- I can remain present with and empathic towards almost anyone, no matter how grotesque their injury. I have never felt the need to look away. I have had to make VERY hard choices and have the confidence of knowing that when I next need to make another difficult decision, I won't blither or bullshit myself. And lastly, I was not injured by people I loved and trusted; my parents were great people whom I admired and I knew I could count on their love 110% -- how many of YOU can say such a thing without qualifiers?

I am NOT an atheist. Not. Not. Not. I just don't believe in an After-Life. I know it's odd, but that's the truth. Heaven, Hell, Limbo, Purgatory -- the whole nine yards seems like silly self-comforting bullshit to me. I find God, on the other hand, to be self-evident. Among other things, it is not mere chance that I survived and thrived; I had help. I had God's Grace. I still do. Right this minute, as I write this. I haven't passed a minute of my life since the age of two or three doubting whether God exists.

Pride seems to me to be the worst possible sin...the sin from which all evil flows. I think every adult human must make a fundamental choice between Pride and Dignity, just as they must between Good and Evil. No one can construct their life to run in both directions at once.

Pride needs an audience. It needs to inspire envy in others -- one of only a few of the more devastating effects it has on any single human is the corrupting influence it has on the humans around him. We ALL know someone prideful: the man who brags on his wealth or power; the woman who flirts with other ladies' husbands just to prove she's more attractive than their wives, etc. Pride wounds and at the same time, whispers the lie to the injured that the balm for the wound is Pride, which can only be had by inflicting a wound on yet a third person. Pride, like all evil (and all good) is contagious.

Dignity needs nothing. It is inherent in that person, and cannot be lost regardless of how degraded their lives may become. Nelson Mandela has Dignity. He had it at birth, he kept it through childhood and he had it during all the decades he was incarcerated by a nation that believed he was subhuman. I think he still has it today, though now of course, he must feel the breath of Pride on his neck. I do not take my Dignity at the expense of anyone else's. To the contrary -- in order for me to cling to my Dignity, I have to restore it to others in need when the opportunity presents itself. I cannot maintain my Dignity if I am surrounded by people who are debased but yet I take no action to restore Justice to their lives.

I think if I had a "catechism", it would be "The Plague" by Albert Camus. The world has gone to shit, the stench of death is everywhere, the situation is hopeless. Do you steal from the dying? Try and profit from grave digging? Stay indoors and hope not to catch the plague? Or minister to the dying, try and comfort them, in the vain hope that some will survive? If you can easily see the value of service in this setting, then we share a POV. If you'd need an After-Life to inspire your service, we do not.

What will I say if one day, I stand before the Pearly Gates? I'm totally fucked if that happens; I am one lousy Catholic. Maybe my living family will pay for a pleniary indulgence for me and I'll get into Heaven anyway. If not, I take comfort in knowing that there'll be other interesting people in Hell. Maybe, at the last moment my sense of myself, my Dignity and Trust in God will fail and I'll demand the Last Rites and be saved before I die. I like to think I won't go out as a coward, but who knows?

I think it's disingenuous to say evil exists because man has Free Will. If we were made in God's image and put here (why again? to amuse God?) then we should have no serious design flaws...and I'd say evil was a very serious one indeed. I don't see that evil is a necessary facet of Free Will; we would have still been interesting if we had merely struggled for Enlightenment. Evil seems to me to be a debasement of what humanity is; a perversion, a loss. It is certainly a force in the world worthy of resistance by any means possible.

I cannot buy the notion that every baby is stained by original sin. Vicarious liability? For the single, morally neutral act of two adults who lived eons ago? To those of you who do believe it....how do you reconcile the "Story of the Tree of Knowledge" with evolution? If Adam and Eve are just metaphors, then what about Cain and Able? Abraham and Issac? Joseph and the coat of many colors? Moses? If Adam and Eve never existed, then what am I supposed to be vicariously liable FOR?

I don't think Jesus was a Republican nor would he be if he lived now. He'd most likely be a Communist, agitating to perfect social justice and eliminate the need for any government at all. Republicans care very much about such things as fiscal conservation -- and it is absolutely clear Jesus placed no value on wealth. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." I actually agree with this; poverty allows a person to do good and wealth closes off those opportunities for most who experience it. The wealthy have to have a self-defense technique that dehumanizes or devalues the non-wealthy -- elsewise, they could not enjoy that bit of caviar while yet another kidlet in their town died from lead poisoning, abuse or disease. The poor have little opportunity to experience Pride and thus, are more likely than the wealthy to find Dignity.

In my own way, I resemble Avatar. I have been questing too. Mebbe I still am, though it feels as if I have plateaued. I do not have any need to persuade anyone else to believe as I do -- a courtesy some Christians just cannot muster. I am very Jewish in this: if you live an ethical life, you have my respect. I would be willing to agree you will go to Heaven, if I could believe there was one.

If you act from Pride, and seek to overtake others and bend their lives to your needs and desires without regard for theirs, then you will lose my respect. I don't think you're going to Hell, as I don't think there is one. I think the punishment for acting that way is that you have see such an evil-doer in the mirror. I also think every evil person is essentially alone; unable to experience meaningful intimacy with other humans and alienated from God. Must be like doing Life Without Parole in a SuperMax, and it appeals to me not at all. Nor would it, even if the prison was a palace.

 

[PixieStix]

Alright, specific in terms of a non believer you say may be wrong and have to answer for it later by standing in front of god. What then?

Again is believing the price of entrance?

Yes, it is.

Now I am not beating up on you PS so please dont think I am putting you on the spot.

So what you are saying it makes no difference if Maddie lives her life as a model of kindness and consideration,truth and love. She makes all the right decisions and always does the right thing. More or less a saint. This all forgiving god will not let her in because she is a mistaken non believer?

What happens to the believer who is a fring evil person? Not bad enough to go to hell but dam bad in many aspects of life. Because they are a believer will they get in?

I do not know the answer to that question, I am not God, it is He that people need to seek out for that answer

I cannot explain everything I have learned, it is many times unexplainable with words. My faith changed my .life and has helped me to become stronger and stronger with each and every adversity

 

[rikules]

I know what I would say...


"god...you are a jerk!

punishing people for such petty offenses is sick

NOBODY deserves to burn in hell forever simply for having sex outside of marriage
or getting divorced
or being gay
or for just not believing in you

plenty of DECENT and GOOD and HONORABLE people indulge in these acts andthey do NOT deserve to be punished for all eternity...

god
you are a sick bastard
and you should seek help

and
one last thing
you are completely wrong about slavery

slavery is NOT acceptable!

slavery is BAD!

now...go to your room and think about what you've done

and I don't want you to come out until you are ready to apoligize to ALL of mankind"

I find it mildly amusing that you presume to tell an all powerful being what is right and what is wrong rather than to learn directly from Him. You have an incorrect understanding of God and yet somehow it's His fault.

and I find it mildly amusing that you are such a weak and pitiful coward that you would bow down to this nazi regardless of how terrible and cruel he is...

you might as well bow down to hitler

there doesn't seem to be much difference

the thing is
I think for myself
while you don't think at all
you just do what you THINK your god tells you

I'm willing to stand up to this deranged god, REGARDLESS of possible PUNISHMENT(gosh..how brave I am)
and tell him just how wrong and wicked he truely is

while you just grovel and beg and plead like the lilly livered coward you are

and that is the difference between us
I am a FREE MAN
while you are a slave to a deranged god

 

[Madeline]

Yes, it is.

Now I am not beating up on you PS so please dont think I am putting you on the spot.

So what you are saying it makes no difference if Maddie lives her life as a model of kindness and consideration,truth and love. She makes all the right decisions and always does the right thing. More or less a saint. This all forgiving god will not let her in because she is a mistaken non believer?

What happens to the believer who is a fring evil person? Not bad enough to go to hell but dam bad in many aspects of life. Because they are a believer will they get in?

I do not know the answer to that question, I am not God, it is He that people need to seek out for that answer

I cannot explain everything I have learned, it is many times unexplainable with words. My faith changed my .life and has helped me to become stronger and stronger with each and every adversity

PixieStix, I have no doubt that your faith changed your life. So did mine. What I am perplexed by is this notion that everyone who does not share your faith is slated to be denied the Big Prize. Assuming there is a Big Prize, what about people who are never even exposed to your faith? What about someone who is retarded or mentally ill, and through no fault of their cannot learn it? Or folks like me, who simply cannot accept it? If you are right, am I not simply a lost, confused, limited person to be pitied?

To me, one (of many) great fallacy of all forms of christianity is this Pride of believing that only christians have The Answer and only christians will be "saved".

Are you aware there are many organized religions that do not teach this sort of exclusivity? I'd say the majority of the people on Planet Earth do not have a shared belief in "my way or the highway". Why is it necessary to ponder the Ultimate Fate of anyone other than yourself, anyway? Are you doing such a fantabulous job of running your life that you have the time and energy to devote any meaningful attention to how I run mine? I am in no such position, I can assure you. I'll judge some folks' actions very harshly, I admit -- but I don't judge anyone else's beliefs about The Big Question.

 

[Avatar4321]

and I find it mildly amusing that you are such a weak and pitiful coward that you would bow down to this nazi regardless of how terrible and cruel he is...

you might as well bow down to hitler

there doesn't seem to be much difference

the thing is
I think for myself
while you don't think at all
you just do what you THINK your god tells you

I'm willing to stand up to this deranged god, REGARDLESS of possible PUNISHMENT(gosh..how brave I am)
and tell him just how wrong and wicked he truely is

while you just grovel and beg and plead like the lilly livered coward you are

and that is the difference between us
I am a FREE MAN
while you are a slave to a deranged god

He is neither terrible, nor cruel. You say you think for yourself, yet you just repeat the same crap that's been spewed for thousands of years.

Your pride will be your destruction unless you repent like all men must.

 

[PixieStix]

I am not much into arguing for the Lord, He will take care of those who are sincere all by Himself

 

[Avatar4321]

There is no point condemning the non-believer. I don't have that power. I want to save the non-believer. I want to empower people through the Atonement of Jesus Christ to change their lives and live more according to the order of righteousness and happiness. I want people to feel the love of God as strongly as I do. I want them to recognize their weaknesses, because until they honestly do, they can't improve on themselves.

Why should I condemn when everything the Gospel teaches is to lift up?

 

[Madeline]

I know what I would say...

"god...you are a jerk!

punishing people for such petty offenses is sick

NOBODY deserves to burn in hell forever simply for having sex outside of marriage
or getting divorced
or being gay
or for just not believing in you

plenty of DECENT and GOOD and HONORABLE people indulge in these acts andthey do NOT deserve to be punished for all eternity...

god
you are a sick bastard
and you should seek help

and
one last thing
you are completely wrong about slavery

slavery is NOT acceptable!

slavery is BAD!

now...go to your room and think about what you've done

and I don't want you to come out until you are ready to apoligize to ALL of mankind"

I find it mildly amusing that you presume to tell an all powerful being what is right and what is wrong rather than to learn directly from Him. You have an incorrect understanding of God and yet somehow it's His fault.

and I find it mildly amusing that you are such a weak and pitiful coward that you would bow down to this nazi regardless of how terrible and cruel he is...

you might as well bow down to hitler

there doesn't seem to be much difference

the thing is
I think for myself
while you don't think at all
you just do what you THINK your god tells you

I'm willing to stand up to this deranged god, REGARDLESS of possible PUNISHMENT(gosh..how brave I am)
and tell him just how wrong and wicked he truely is

while you just grovel and beg and plead like the lilly livered coward you are

and that is the difference between us
I am a FREE MAN
while you are a slave to a deranged god

Here's another thing I do not understand: why would God wait 100,000's of year before giving mankind the playbook? And if the New Testament is the playbook, then why not turn us all into lobotomized subhumans, able to memorize every word but unable to analyze any of it?

If God wants us to think (and I believe that he does) doesn't he also want us to learn? To consider? To form our own POVs? I don't see the high value in this alleged lock-step shared belief system called christianity.

 

[Madeline]

and I find it mildly amusing that you are such a weak and pitiful coward that you would bow down to this nazi regardless of how terrible and cruel he is...

you might as well bow down to hitler

there doesn't seem to be much difference

the thing is
I think for myself
while you don't think at all
you just do what you THINK your god tells you

I'm willing to stand up to this deranged god, REGARDLESS of possible PUNISHMENT(gosh..how brave I am)
and tell him just how wrong and wicked he truely is

while you just grovel and beg and plead like the lilly livered coward you are

and that is the difference between us
I am a FREE MAN
while you are a slave to a deranged god

He is neither terrible, nor cruel. You say you think for yourself, yet you just repeat the same crap that's been spewed for thousands of years.

Your pride will be your destruction unless you repent like all men must.

Avatar, aren't you also guilty of Pride?