Why havent the terrorists done this?

[M14 Shooter]

Of course they're likely to get lucky eventually.

The OP wonders why it is they haven't driven gasoline tankers into elementary schools... There's not a lot of planning or effort needed there.

 

[Paulie]

Oh, I see -- a GRAND conspiracy by the intelligence community, domestic as well as international.

You can label it a conspiracy theory if you want. I label much of what our government wants us to believe as a conspiracy theory without proof as well. There's really no difference.

Of course, this is your opinion, and you dont have any proof.

Right?

Right.

Do you have proof that the government of Iran knowingly, officially aids the insurgency in Iraq?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Of course, this is your opinion, and you dont have any proof.
Right?

Right.

Ok then -- you go ahead and believe that.
Just don't expect anyone else to take it seriously.

 

[Paulie]

Ok then -- you go ahead and believe that.
Just don't expect anyone else to take it seriously.

When you officially speak for 'everyone else', come give me the global consensus opinion. Until then, it's best if you only speak for yourself.

Anyway though, why don't you address my entire post...Do you have proof that the government of Iran, the ones responsible for state decisions, not their covert intelligence group, have knowingly and officially aided the insurgency in Iraq?

 

[M14 Shooter]

When you officially speak for 'everyone else', come give me the global consensus opinion. Until then, it's best if you only speak for yourself.

I dont see how or why any rational person would ever entertain such a grand conspiracy theory, especiallly when you, yourself, admit it is just your opinion, and you do not have any proof.

But as I said -- you keep believing that.

 

[Paulie]

I dont see how or why any rational person would ever entertain such a grand conspiracy theory, especiallly when you, yourself, admit it is just your opinion, and you do not have any proof.

But that's the point I'm trying prove though. You won't address the other part of my post, so I'm not able to make my point.

You have opinions about things that you have no proof of, and so do I. I don't go advocating for wars based on mine though, I advocate for RELUCTANCE to go to war and kill hundreds of thousands, and displace millions, BECAUSE of them.

Are you going to answer my question about Iran, or not?

 

[M14 Shooter]

But that's the point I'm trying prove though. You won't address the other part of my post, so I'm not able to make my point. You have opinions about things that you have no proof of, and so do I.

That's because I havent made any claims to that effect.

The difference here is that YOU claim that there IS a consporacy, and then admit that there is no proof. Understand that this conspiracy, if true, is responsible for the wars we're currently engaged in -- no small thing, and no small accusation.

If you want to make a point, then you need to find a claim that I have made and ask me for my proof.

Or not - really, it doesn't matter to me. That you hold the idea at all, and then hang onto it even after the admission that you havent any supporting evidence whatsoever is sufficent for me to simply ignore whatever think your point might be.

Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Jesus Christ exist.
I dont have any proof, but I dont care -- they exist.

 

[Paulie]

That's because I havent made any claims to that effect.

The difference here is that YOU claim that there IS a consporacy, and then admit that there is no proof. Understand that this conspiracy, if true, is responsible for the wars we're currently engaged in -- no small thing, and no small accusation.

If you want to make a point, then you need to find a claim that I have made and ask me for my proof.

Or not - really, it doesn't matter to me. That you hold the idea at all, and then hang onto it even after the admission that you havent any supporting evidence whatsoever is sufficent for me to simply ignore whatever think your point might be.

Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Jesus Christ exist.
I dont have any proof, but I dont care -- they exist.

You won't answer my question about Iran, which is where I would be getting a specific example of you believing in a conspiracy without proof, because that's exactly what the accusations about Iran aiding the insurgency are...a conspiracy theory. I'm just wondering if you believe it. I could go back through all of your posts to find something you said and challenge you, and I'm sure there's something I could find, but I'd rather go with the Iran thing, and I really just don't feel like searching members' posts. All you really have to do is answer the question. Just like I answered yours earlier. It makes this whole discussion/debate thing go a lot smoother. When you continually and intentionally ignore that specific part of the discussion, it makes me tend to wonder whether or not you have a clear rebuttal for it. That's all. Until you answer my simple question, this discussion is going nowhere and getting boring.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I could go back through all of your posts to find something you said and challenge you, and I'm sure there's something I could find, but I'd rather go with the Iran thing...

Of course -- its a straw man.

You want to argue that -I- hold opinions that I have to evidence to support in order to justify -your- opinions that you cannot provide evidence for. Aside from the fact that 'you do it too' doesnt take anything away from the impossibility of your position, if you're going to do that, then you're going to have to actually find a position that I hold but don't have evidence to support.

 

[Paulie]

Of course -- its a straw man.

You want to argue that -I- hold opinions that I have to evidence to support in order to justify -your- opinions that you cannot provide evidence for. Aside from the fact that 'you do it too' doesnt take anything away from the impossibility of your position, if you're going to do that, then you're going to have to actually find a position that I hold but don't have evidence to support.

You believe Iran's government OFFICIALLY and KNOWINGLY aids the insurgency in Iraq, and you don't have a shred of proof. If you don't actually believe that, do feel free to correct me. I'm certain that I'm right about that, though.

So how's that any different from my beliefs?

It's not a strawman, I'm making a point. I'm willing to admit that I don't have any proof to back up my beliefs, why aren't you?

Do any of us really have ANY proof of ANYTHING going on in the world these days? If all you have to go on is someone that you don't even personally know's WORD, than that's not proof. You make up your mind with what's presented to you, just like everyone else does.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You believe Iran's government OFFICIALLY and KNOWINGLY aids the insurgency in Iraq, and you don't have a shred of proof. If you don't actually believe that, do feel free to correct me

Nice try. I won't bite.

 

[Paulie]

Nice try. I won't bite.

That's ok. Your silence is deafening.

 

[M14 Shooter]

That's ok. Your silence is deafening.

Given that you're expecting me to answer questions regarding a position I havent taken and then try to use those answers against me to suppoirt one of YOUR assertions -- there's absolutely no need for rme to say a thing.

You cannot defend your point on its own, you know it, and you're creating straw men to try to save yourself.. That says all that needs to be said.

Just remember:
Your claim of the existence of a Grand Conspiracy is just as sound as my claim of the existence of Santa Claus.

 

[Abelian Sea]

The OP wonders why it is they haven't driven gasoline tankers into elementary schools... There's not a lot of planning or effort needed there.

But there would be planning and discussion, and perhaps orders from higher up. There would be a chance for our spooks to learn of it before it went down, especially if they were already monitoring the cell, or monitoring part of the terrorist organization responsible for activating/guiding the cell.

The vulnerability of terrorist organizations isn't in the exact nature of their plots - drive a gas truck into a building, smuggle a bomb through a port, hijack an oceanliner with toenail clippers, whatever - it's the fact that they are organizations, networks of humans who incubate attitudes, communicate ideas, transfer resources, relay orders, get money, etc. That's where the battle is, and a successful campain in that arena will stop simple and easy plots as well as complex ones.

The plot would be more likely to succede the more spontaneous it is (and the truck plot could be done pretty sponteneously), but in this country, an ocean away from the core of the motivation for this strain of terrorist attacks, you aren't likely to find many people who will, out of nowhere, sacrifice themselves for the jihadist cause. People in this country that independently do suicide attacks do them for far murkier causes, so that we aren't usually tempted to call them "terrorists," and they typically favor a nice shooting spree, which is simpler and, for the perpetrator, more entertaining than stealing a gasoline truck and successfully navigating it into a relevant part of the building in such a way that it will actually explode/ignite and spread a satisfactory amount of death that the perp probably wouldn't even live to see.

No, the people here who would actually do such a thing as a tool of terror are likely part of organizations, would not likely do it out of the blue, and would probably be sent to damage something that would hinder more than just one community, like a travel hub, important piece of infrastructure, or center of corporate/political power.

The truck-into-the-school-building-as-a-terrorist-attack scenerio sounds like something that would happen near to the center of the terrorists' agitation, where a lot of people are extremely angry at a present and persistant situation. It would indeed happen without much planning or communication. It isn't like that over here, though. People here who would drive a truck into a school aren't "terrorists" - they'd do it for their own twisted reasons rather as part of a cause - and the jihadist terrorists are organized (and thus potentially monitored), have their sights on things other than schools, and would probably want to do something more reliable than just driving in with the truck and hoping it explodes properly.

 

[Paulie]

Given that you're expecting me to answer questions regarding a position I havent taken and then try to use those answers against me to suppoirt one of YOUR assertions -- there's absolutely no need for rme to say a thing.

You cannot defend your point on its own, you know it, and you're creating straw men to try to save yourself.. That says all that needs to be said.

Just a fancy way of saying "I'm afraid you'll use me to prove your point".

It's actually pretty cowardly of you, not answering a simple question.

Just remember:
Your claim of the existence of a Grand Conspiracy is just as sound as my claim of the existence of Santa Claus.

No less sound then much of what our government would have us believe these days.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Just a fancy way of saying "I'm afraid you'll use me to prove your point"

Actually, its a rather direct way of saying that you know you dont have a leg to stand on, and so you're reduced to screaming 'oh yeah, well you do it too!!" through your tear-filled eyes and snotty nose.

Unfortunately for you, I wont play your game.
You can continue to cry about it, if you want.

No less sound then much of what our government would have us believe these days.

Keep believing in Santa Claus.
The rest of us will look on to more pressing matters.

 

[eots]

Just a fancy way of saying "I'm afraid you'll use me to prove your point".

It's actually pretty cowardly of you, not answering a simple question.



No less sound then much of what our government would have us believe these days.

where is the proof for the bin laden/19 Arabs conspiracy theory ?

 

[Paulie]

where is the proof for the bin laden/19 Arabs conspiracy theory ?

Besides a red bandana, and a half burnt passport that both somehow managed to survive plane crash explosions and 110 story tall complete building collapses, I'm not quite sure.

I do however know that there are various groups of people who are requesting a lot of the evidence that the government apparently has, and are being denied.

It's simple, really. Just show us what you got! Who knows, maybe it'll shut a lot of people the hell up!

Actually, its a rather direct way of saying that you know you dont have a leg to stand on, and so you're reduced to screaming 'oh yeah, well you do it too!!" through your tear-filled eyes and snotty nose.

Hey, if I'm not mistaken, you started on me about hitting liberal talking points. When I tried to continue the discussion about believing a conspiracy theory further to show you your error, you digressed. It's pot calling the kettle black, shooter. And you know it. Your own pet conspiracy theories are no more credible than anyone elses, that's why they're called 'theories'. They haven't been proven yet.

The point I was making was if you're going to attack a specific theory, you ought to be ready to defend your OWN.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Hey, if I'm not mistaken, you started on me about hitting liberal talking points.

I never said anything about liberal talking points.
Those were your words.

When I tried to continue the discussion about believing a conspiracy theory further to show you your error, you digressed.[

Yes -- we determined you believe in a conspiracy theory that you admit you havent any evidence to back up.
Much like Santa Claus.
What WAS your point?

Your own pet conspiracy theories are no more credible than anyone elses, that's why they're called 'theories'. They haven't been proven yet.

I'm sorry-- what theories are those?
Oh, that's right -- you didn't provide an example.
Please show me one of my pet conspiracy theories that I haven't defended.

The point I was making was if you're going to attack a specific theory, you ought to be ready to defend your OWN.

What theory was I supposed to defend?
Again, you didn't provide an example.

 

[eots]

Another 911 'Passport Miracle' !: Knowledge Driven RevolutionOne day after 9/11 the perfectly unscathed passport of Satam Al Suqami, one of the alleged 19 hijackers, was found several blocks from Ground Zero, ...
www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Articles/200511/20051111_911_Pent_Passport.htm - 26k

the passport being found a day latter by a policemen just screams that it was planted...and the fact none of the supposed hijackers are on any of the passenger list or even any Arab names of any kind or any video of any of them boarding any of the flights makes it even more so