Why fight a battle that cannot be won?

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by Mr.Conley, Jan 20, 2006.

  1. Mr.Conley
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    Mr.Conley Senior Member

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    For centuries human beings have killed, enslaved, persecuted, and discriminatied against one another. To this day the tradition continues, for example the Rwanda genocide, the Holocaust, the Balkin crisis have witnessed some of histories greatest atrocities. However despite continued persecution and discrimination, minority groups have continued to exist, resist, and revoult against their oppressors. African-Americans fought racism and prejudice in the South during the Civil Rights movement. The emerging Protestants fought the Catholics during the past centuries. Even the Jews resisted Roman efforts to enslave, convert, and conform Judaea after its conquest. With this historical fact of minority survival despite incredible obstacles, I question the reasons for the continued fight to restrict the rights and freedoms of our nation's gay and lesbian members. This particular minority is argueably the most established and oldest group in human history (consisting of a minumum of 4% of the population
    [see http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120902,00.html ]

    and existing since at least ancient Rome and China
    [see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Gay_Community ].

    This information clearly shows that despite continued subjugation, discrimination and isolation from society during the past several centuries, the gay community continues to thrive. As such, I question all those who fight to restrict the rights, privileges, and responsibilities of our fellow citizens.
    (see the 14th amendment concerning said rights
    "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
    )
    I ask why, despite the historical facts stated above concerning the resiliance of the gay community, do you continue to tive toward the the destruction of this futile goal?

    Note, what I am asking in this thread is not whether homosexuality is moral or immoral; rather, I question why those who dislike homosexuality continue to fight against it. Expeically in this day and age of the continued expansions of freedom.

    Thank you
     
  2. archangel
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    archangel Guest

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    It appears as if you may be a teacher or professor since you merged history into your diatribe of supporting "Gay" and "Lesbian" rights.

    First and foremost homosexuality was tried and failed during both the Greek and Roman Empires taking both empires down in the process.

    Second: The Ottoman Empire did not cease to exist in the 1920's it just morphed into what we now label "Terrorism" ie: al Qaeda, Hamas etc...This is in reference to your Balkin comment...the Balkins are under seige from the morphed "Ottoman Empire" that really did not cease to exist but became a shadow nation! If you do a little research the burning of Christian churches continue in the Balkins as well as African nations!
     
  3. Mr.Conley
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    Mr.Conley Senior Member

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    As my profile says, I am a student.
    Two points
    a. I would argue the fall of Greece had to do more with the fact that a group of independent city-states that had been in a near ceaseless, resource-depleting war for 50 years would stand little chance against a better organized enemy with superior number, armament, tactics, resources, a larger population, and massive influence in every Greek city-state (a little known fact, Philip uses his wealth and influence to establish a "Macedonian party" in every Greek city This "party" swayed Greek policy and acted as spies for the Macedonians.). These factors I believed contributed more to the fall of Greece than homosexuality.
    Source
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ancient_Greece#The_rise_of_Macedon
    www.ancientgreece.com
    But this debate is really irrelevent to the question at hand. My question is not about the few known instances when homosexuality was accepted by a society.
    b. What I am trying to ask is how, given the general historical plight of homosexuality throughout history, specifically its resiliancy, people can really hope to crush it now.
     
  4. Hobbit
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    Hobbit Senior Member

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    First off, any student worth his salt should know not to EVER consider Wikipedia a reliable source. Anybody with enough spare time and half a brain can make a Wikipedia entry. Some are good, but the work, as a whole, is unreliable.

    Second, no gays are being denied any rights. Gay people can do anything straight people can. What they want is special rights, as has been discussed many times on this board, if you're care to use the 'search' function.

    Third, as a fellow student, I recognize your type. You've taken a few classes. You have a few professors you look up to. You also have a canned opinion you probably picked up from a professor or two. As a person of this type, of which I know many, you think you are smarter than anyone who doesn't share your opinion, and you are attempting to prove it with a simplistic, asinine argument that doesn't really have a lot of merit. If you follow the pattern, you will next dismiss our arguments and intolerant, bigoted, irrelevant, or just plain incorrect.

    That attitude won't get you far here. In order to get respect, you'll need to think for yourself and post some articles that are more reliable than Wikipedia.
     
  5. The ClayTaurus
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    The ClayTaurus Senior Member

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    I think you exagerate about the lack of accuracy of wikipedia. http://news.com.com/Study+Wikipedia+as+accurate+as+Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html
    It's not infallible, but I would say it's generally reliable.

    And give the guy a break on the whole elitist thing. He's yet to disparage anyone, and you're already pigeonholing him. Wait untill he actually starts calling you bigoted before you attack him for it. :)
     
  6. Mr.Conley
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    Mr.Conley Senior Member

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    History of the Classical Greek World, 478-323 Bc: 478-323 B.c (Blackwell History of the Ancient World)
    http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9106267?query=ancient greek history&ct=
    www.ancientgreece.com

    a. You can use the things above; however, they all cost money. I provided the wikipedia link as a reliable link that did not cost money to view.
    b. What I was stating is nothing more than accepted Greek history anyway, I really shouldn't have to provide a link.
    c. Do you think I did not look over the article and make sure it was correct.
    d. This has nothing to do with the topic anyway and I do not know why you are bothering

    You are correct that gay people are allowed almost every right that other citizens are, but I would put forth marriage, especially the benefits and responsibilities the law gives to married couples, adoption is iffy at best, as well as the stigmatism they face from many members of society. You may not be a homophobe, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Again this is off topic.

    a. Wow, you sure seem to know a lot about me from two posts. Maybe you would consider actually getting to know me before passing judgement.
    b. I am not posting an arguement here; however, I am asking a question, and so far no one has bothered to answer that question.
    c. I don't know about where your school, but I've been taught to think for myself, examine the facts, and infer what I can from the sources. And, unlike you, I've provided a resource for others to do the same.
     
  7. Stephanie
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    Stephanie Diamond Member Supporting Member

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    Good Golly! Mr.Conely, must you write a book just to ask one little ole question. shhheeeessssshhh :cool:
     
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  8. Hobbit
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    Hobbit Senior Member

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    I just call 'em as I see 'em. I've seen people time and time again come in and start similar threads, and they all have the same attitude. The tone of your post, and in fact, even the tone of the title, is cocky, and it's also nothing we haven't heard before. I suggest you use the search function to look up the two dozen other threads where every point you've brought up has been debated and redebated, and I'm getting sick of rehashing the exact same argument to EVERY new member to the board.

    Now, I've seen people like you evolve into more constructive members of the board, such as Clay here, but please, for the love of all things holy, go look at the plentiful other gay marriage threads before starting a new one that implies that all we ignorant, bigoted conservatives can't possibly deny people such fundamental rights as the ability to alter a several millenia old institution to accomadate a lifestyle considered sinful by EVERY relgion that had a hand in founding it solely because they don't want to have to fill out wills and power of attorney paperwork...oh yeah, it has one other purpose, to shove their perversion in everybody else's faces and force government sanctioned acceptance.
     
  9. The ClayTaurus
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    The ClayTaurus Senior Member

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    If you're sick of re-hashing it, why bother responding at all then? I really think you're jumping all over this guy needlessly. He's presented an opinion, and asked a question, and that's it. He hasn't called anyone bigoted yet, he hasn't gone off the deep end. But just because others before him have, you're dumping on him. This is precisely what people complain about when they first get to the board.

    It's not: hey, welcome to the board; this topic's been covered before, try searching the archives for it.

    It's: Jesus, you sure are one elitist collegiate prick. I bet you're going to call me a bigot now, right? RIGHT? You asshole, you'll never make it on this board.

    I think GOP Jeff would agree with me on this subject; this guy has (so far) been completely respectful in his posts. If he goes off on some elitist asshole bend calling everyone a homophobe, then slaughter him. Until then, let him at least warm up to the place a little :)
     
  10. Stephanie
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    Stephanie Diamond Member Supporting Member

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    I have to side with Hobbit on this. I got the same high and mighty attitude from your post. It was rather boring to read. And for me if this is how all your post are going to be, I'll not be reading to many more :scratch:
     

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