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The Republican Party has become the party of "Ah Ha". They think they have a new scheme. A new way to attack the president. To avoid responsibility. The problem with this current debacle is they struck "too soon".
If this had happened, say two weeks before the election, it might have had a chance to actually cause damage to the first African American Attorney General and the first African American President, but with this much time, people will learn the truth. And truth has proven to be the deadly enemy to this current Republican Party.
So forget the fact that Bush used Executive Privilege 6 times while Obama has used it this once. And what did Bush use it for? Things like protecting whoever outed a covert CIA agent, something people other than Republicans think of as "treason".
Forget the fact this program was "officially started" in 2006.
Forget the fact the agent killed wasn't killed with one of these guns.
Forget the fact Holder ordered this program stopped when he found out about it.
Just this simple one thing, when pointed out to thinking Americans, will prove this to be the scheme it is.
When an operation, such as this is put into effect, it takes years of planning. It's no accident is was started in 2006. You know something like this was going on for years. Because it takes years to train people. To make contacts. To put the operation in place. To acquire materials and knowledge. To gather intel. This entire operation began in an area of the country hostile to Obama with people who are Republicans to the core.
Holder didn't enter office with this huge operation already planned out and put in place on day one. It's ludicrous.
Look at the operation that took out Bin Laden after Republicans let him go and stopped looking for him. And it was a very small operation involving a limited number of people. And how long did they plan before the operation went into effect? How much training was involved? How much intel was acquired?
When the size and scope of "Operation Fast and Furious" is revealed and when it started and when Eric Holder took office, it will become apparent this is another attack on Obama by way of Holder. Now for these right wingers, it doesn't matter. They just don't care about truth. I believe my all time favorite post here was when some right winger said Iraq was Obama's fault. That we never should have invaded. This is the same kind of thing.
You know, RDerp, it's sometimes amazing how many blatant falsehoods you can squeeze into a single post. 5 minutes with Google and you'd know just how wrong you are, but then again I think you already know, you just don't give a shit about the truth.
Rdean has always manipulated the truth to make his point. The truth is stationary and can't be manipulated, once it is, isn't no longer the truth, but becomes a yarn.
No lie at all.
It was called something different, "Wide Receiver".
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You want to play exact word games?
Typical.
Can you be any more ridiculous, Sallow? Wide Receiver was stopped in 2007 when the Mexican government, who were in on it, informed the DOJ that they couldn't track the guns. Fast & Furious, OTOH, was started by Holder's DOJ in 2009 WITHOUT the knowledge or cooperation of the Mexican government, and wasn't stopped until 3 ATF agents blew the whistle on it.
Eeeyah. Ridiculous. Lets go with that. The Mexican government "asked" the United States to discontinue the program because they couldn't track the guns..and "poof"..it was gone. Forgive me if I have a little trouble with that meme. The Bush administration, which pulled the Anti-ballastic Missile treaty unilaterally, kept sending spy planes to China despite protests and attacked a nation which didn't attack us..again..by ourselves..and with protest suddenly started listening to Mexico. Got it.
Well heck..lets say the Bush administration had a special place in it's heart for Mexico and go with that. What happened to the guns they lost track of? Did the magically disappear? Were they "special" guns set to disintergrate when Bush gave the go ahead? Were they loaded with special "A-Team" ammo..that goes around the good guys and only hits bad guys? I dunno. I don't enough about guns to know if they can do that. Would you?
Well okay..off the gun topic for a moment. Since the Bush administration "stopped" the program..where there any memos put into place to keep it from starting up again? Directives? Sticky notes? Something? I'm just wondering why Kenneth F. Melson..who was head of the ATF around the time of Operation Wide Reciever..didn't pipe up and say something like "The Bush administration absolutely prohibits this sort of thing by directive, we tried it..it didn't work..because the Mexicans told us to stop".
So..off the top of my head..I've come up with two pretty important questions regarding why the Bush administration's people should be in on this.
And seeing that forensics hasn't established which exact gun killed Terry..it would seem prudent...no?
But lets get down to brass tacks here. What's the ultimate goal? Would it be like impeaching Clinton..who you guys said was hauled before Congress for lying..yet Bush lied several times..in Congress..most notably at the SOTU about aluminium tubing. But..um..no impeachment.
So would it be to prohibit the ATF from ever carrying out this sort of operation again? I've seen no legislation put up that does that..maybe you can point me to it?
Or is it..to embarrass the administration..or perhaps engage in a fishing expedition meant to undo a popular elections.
I'm going with that one.
Can you be any more ridiculous, Sallow? Wide Receiver was stopped in 2007 when the Mexican government, who were in on it, informed the DOJ that they couldn't track the guns. Fast & Furious, OTOH, was started by Holder's DOJ in 2009 WITHOUT the knowledge or cooperation of the Mexican government, and wasn't stopped until 3 ATF agents blew the whistle on it.
Eeeyah. Ridiculous. Lets go with that. The Mexican government "asked" the United States to discontinue the program because they couldn't track the guns..and "poof"..it was gone. Forgive me if I have a little trouble with that meme. The Bush administration, which pulled the Anti-ballastic Missile treaty unilaterally, kept sending spy planes to China despite protests and attacked a nation which didn't attack us..again..by ourselves..and with protest suddenly started listening to Mexico. Got it.
Well heck..lets say the Bush administration had a special place in it's heart for Mexico and go with that. What happened to the guns they lost track of? Did the magically disappear? Were they "special" guns set to disintergrate when Bush gave the go ahead? Were they loaded with special "A-Team" ammo..that goes around the good guys and only hits bad guys? I dunno. I don't enough about guns to know if they can do that. Would you?
Well okay..off the gun topic for a moment. Since the Bush administration "stopped" the program..where there any memos put into place to keep it from starting up again? Directives? Sticky notes? Something? I'm just wondering why Kenneth F. Melson..who was head of the ATF around the time of Operation Wide Reciever..didn't pipe up and say something like "The Bush administration absolutely prohibits this sort of thing by directive, we tried it..it didn't work..because the Mexicans told us to stop".
So..off the top of my head..I've come up with two pretty important questions regarding why the Bush administration's people should be in on this.
And seeing that forensics hasn't established which exact gun killed Terry..it would seem prudent...no?
But lets get down to brass tacks here. What's the ultimate goal? Would it be like impeaching Clinton..who you guys said was hauled before Congress for lying..yet Bush lied several times..in Congress..most notably at the SOTU about aluminium tubing. But..um..no impeachment.
So would it be to prohibit the ATF from ever carrying out this sort of operation again? I've seen no legislation put up that does that..maybe you can point me to it?
Or is it..to embarrass the administration..or perhaps engage in a fishing expedition meant to undo a popular elections.
I'm going with that one.
Dipshit, let's deal in reality and in the present. Bush isn't in office. No matter how much you wish and wish he left office in 2008 and this current amateur occupying the Oval Office is responsible.
This is pathetic. The left is deranged, they can't help themselves from invoking Bush.
All you have done is provide speculation and conjecture, but the facts aren't on your side. Shallow and rdead spent 8 years spreading conspiracy theories from AWOL stories, Nazi connections, Haliburton, on and on and NOW when the AG is on the record lying, oh I'm sorry 'retracting' his story no less then 6 times--
Screw it, keep on posting. The leftists on this board are doing more to further the Conservative Movement then i could ever do, they are demonstrating the stupidity an deranged logic that it takes to be a member of the modern Democrat Party.
A key problem now for the House Oversight Committee is thus far it has yet to state in a very concrete way why it needs the particular documents it is demanding.
In contrast, the executive branch has articulated a strong and highly specific reason for withholding the documents at issue: Forced disclosure to Congress of internal deliberations concerning how best to interact with Congress would undermine the executive's capacity to function as a co-equal branch. It would undermine the prospects for future candid deliberations about interactions with the other institutions of government.
Resolving such a dispute sounds like a matter for the courts, but the judiciary is unlikely to be of much practical help now to the House.
If the House brings a civil action to enforce its subpoena, the matter is unlikely to resolved by the courts before the election or, indeed, before the expiration of the current Congress.
The House could ask the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia to prosecute Holder for contempt, but the Justice Department long ago took the position -- in a very careful opinion written by then Assistant Attorney General Theodore Olson -- that the department is not required by law to prosecute executive officials for contempt when the ground for subpoena noncompliance is a claim of executive privilege.
Eeeyah. Ridiculous. Lets go with that. The Mexican government "asked" the United States to discontinue the program because they couldn't track the guns..and "poof"..it was gone. Forgive me if I have a little trouble with that meme. The Bush administration, which pulled the Anti-ballastic Missile treaty unilaterally, kept sending spy planes to China despite protests and attacked a nation which didn't attack us..again..by ourselves..and with protest suddenly started listening to Mexico. Got it.
Well heck..lets say the Bush administration had a special place in it's heart for Mexico and go with that. What happened to the guns they lost track of? Did the magically disappear? Were they "special" guns set to disintergrate when Bush gave the go ahead? Were they loaded with special "A-Team" ammo..that goes around the good guys and only hits bad guys? I dunno. I don't enough about guns to know if they can do that. Would you?
Well okay..off the gun topic for a moment. Since the Bush administration "stopped" the program..where there any memos put into place to keep it from starting up again? Directives? Sticky notes? Something? I'm just wondering why Kenneth F. Melson..who was head of the ATF around the time of Operation Wide Reciever..didn't pipe up and say something like "The Bush administration absolutely prohibits this sort of thing by directive, we tried it..it didn't work..because the Mexicans told us to stop".
So..off the top of my head..I've come up with two pretty important questions regarding why the Bush administration's people should be in on this.
And seeing that forensics hasn't established which exact gun killed Terry..it would seem prudent...no?
But lets get down to brass tacks here. What's the ultimate goal? Would it be like impeaching Clinton..who you guys said was hauled before Congress for lying..yet Bush lied several times..in Congress..most notably at the SOTU about aluminium tubing. But..um..no impeachment.
So would it be to prohibit the ATF from ever carrying out this sort of operation again? I've seen no legislation put up that does that..maybe you can point me to it?
Or is it..to embarrass the administration..or perhaps engage in a fishing expedition meant to undo a popular elections.
I'm going with that one.
Dipshit, let's deal in reality and in the present. Bush isn't in office. No matter how much you wish and wish he left office in 2008 and this current amateur occupying the Oval Office is responsible.
This is pathetic. The left is deranged, they can't help themselves from invoking Bush.
All you have done is provide speculation and conjecture, but the facts aren't on your side. Shallow and rdead spent 8 years spreading conspiracy theories from AWOL stories, Nazi connections, Haliburton, on and on and NOW when the AG is on the record lying, oh I'm sorry 'retracting' his story no less then 6 times--
Screw it, keep on posting. The leftists on this board are doing more to further the Conservative Movement then i could ever do, they are demonstrating the stupidity an deranged logic that it takes to be a member of the modern Democrat Party.
Clinton wasn't in office during 9/11, either..yet Clinton and his staff were made to testify at the 9/11 commission.
Dipshit.
Can you be any more ridiculous, Sallow? Wide Receiver was stopped in 2007 when the Mexican government, who were in on it, informed the DOJ that they couldn't track the guns. Fast & Furious, OTOH, was started by Holder's DOJ in 2009 WITHOUT the knowledge or cooperation of the Mexican government, and wasn't stopped until 3 ATF agents blew the whistle on it.
Eeeyah. Ridiculous. Lets go with that. The Mexican government "asked" the United States to discontinue the program because they couldn't track the guns..and "poof"..it was gone. Forgive me if I have a little trouble with that meme. The Bush administration, which pulled the Anti-ballastic Missile treaty unilaterally, kept sending spy planes to China despite protests and attacked a nation which didn't attack us..again..by ourselves..and with protest suddenly started listening to Mexico. Got it.
Well heck..lets say the Bush administration had a special place in it's heart for Mexico and go with that. What happened to the guns they lost track of? Did the magically disappear? Were they "special" guns set to disintergrate when Bush gave the go ahead? Were they loaded with special "A-Team" ammo..that goes around the good guys and only hits bad guys? I dunno. I don't enough about guns to know if they can do that. Would you?
Well okay..off the gun topic for a moment. Since the Bush administration "stopped" the program..where there any memos put into place to keep it from starting up again? Directives? Sticky notes? Something? I'm just wondering why Kenneth F. Melson..who was head of the ATF around the time of Operation Wide Reciever..didn't pipe up and say something like "The Bush administration absolutely prohibits this sort of thing by directive, we tried it..it didn't work..because the Mexicans told us to stop".
So..off the top of my head..I've come up with two pretty important questions regarding why the Bush administration's people should be in on this.
And seeing that forensics hasn't established which exact gun killed Terry..it would seem prudent...no?
But lets get down to brass tacks here. What's the ultimate goal? Would it be like impeaching Clinton..who you guys said was hauled before Congress for lying..yet Bush lied several times..in Congress..most notably at the SOTU about aluminium tubing. But..um..no impeachment.
So would it be to prohibit the ATF from ever carrying out this sort of operation again? I've seen no legislation put up that does that..maybe you can point me to it?
Or is it..to embarrass the administration..or perhaps engage in a fishing expedition meant to undo a popular elections.
I'm going with that one.
Dipshit, let's deal in reality and in the present. Bush isn't in office. No matter how much you wish and wish he left office in 2008 and this current amateur occupying the Oval Office is responsible.
This is pathetic. The left is deranged, they can't help themselves from invoking Bush.
All you have done is provide speculation and conjecture, but the facts aren't on your side. Shallow and rdead spent 8 years spreading conspiracy theories from AWOL stories, Nazi connections, Haliburton, on and on and NOW when the AG is on the record lying, oh I'm sorry 'retracting' his story no less then 6 times--
Screw it, keep on posting. The leftists on this board are doing more to further the Conservative Movement then i could ever do, they are demonstrating the stupidity an deranged logic that it takes to be a member of the modern Democrat Party.
Clinton wasn't in office during 9/11, either..yet Clinton and his staff were made to testify at the 9/11 commission.
Dipshit.
You are delusional. Keep telling yourself this is nothing more than a political attack. Close your eyes and tell yourself it's Bush's fault. If you wish real hard maybe it will be true.
You and the entire left are doing what you have done during this entire investigation, ignore the facts and deflect blame to Bush.
You know, RDerp, it's sometimes amazing how many blatant falsehoods you can squeeze into a single post. 5 minutes with Google and you'd know just how wrong you are, but then again I think you already know, you just don't give a shit about the truth.
Rdean has always manipulated the truth to make his point. The truth is stationary and can't be manipulated, once it is, isn't no longer the truth, but becomes a yarn.
But, everything in rdean's post is correct and factual.
If you believe differently, please post factual links.
Thank you.
Can you be any more ridiculous, Sallow? Wide Receiver was stopped in 2007 when the Mexican government, who were in on it, informed the DOJ that they couldn't track the guns. Fast & Furious, OTOH, was started by Holder's DOJ in 2009 WITHOUT the knowledge or cooperation of the Mexican government, and wasn't stopped until 3 ATF agents blew the whistle on it.
Eeeyah. Ridiculous. Lets go with that. The Mexican government "asked" the United States to discontinue the program because they couldn't track the guns..and "poof"..it was gone. Forgive me if I have a little trouble with that meme. The Bush administration, which pulled the Anti-ballastic Missile treaty unilaterally, kept sending spy planes to China despite protests and attacked a nation which didn't attack us..again..by ourselves..and with protest suddenly started listening to Mexico. Got it.
Well heck..lets say the Bush administration had a special place in it's heart for Mexico and go with that. What happened to the guns they lost track of? Did the magically disappear? Were they "special" guns set to disintergrate when Bush gave the go ahead? Were they loaded with special "A-Team" ammo..that goes around the good guys and only hits bad guys? I dunno. I don't enough about guns to know if they can do that. Would you?
Well okay..off the gun topic for a moment. Since the Bush administration "stopped" the program..where there any memos put into place to keep it from starting up again? Directives? Sticky notes? Something? I'm just wondering why Kenneth F. Melson..who was head of the ATF around the time of Operation Wide Reciever..didn't pipe up and say something like "The Bush administration absolutely prohibits this sort of thing by directive, we tried it..it didn't work..because the Mexicans told us to stop".
So..off the top of my head..I've come up with two pretty important questions regarding why the Bush administration's people should be in on this.
And seeing that forensics hasn't established which exact gun killed Terry..it would seem prudent...no?
But lets get down to brass tacks here. What's the ultimate goal? Would it be like impeaching Clinton..who you guys said was hauled before Congress for lying..yet Bush lied several times..in Congress..most notably at the SOTU about aluminium tubing. But..um..no impeachment.
So would it be to prohibit the ATF from ever carrying out this sort of operation again? I've seen no legislation put up that does that..maybe you can point me to it?
Or is it..to embarrass the administration..or perhaps engage in a fishing expedition meant to undo a popular elections.
I'm going with that one.
In order to have a rational discussion of the subject, both discussers must be rational. You've proven you lack that capability with this post.
We're not discussing ABM treaties or spy planes here, so quit changing the subject. The DOJ stopped 'Wide Receiver' in 2007 because they, with the assistance of the Mexican government, were unable to track the weapons. Mexico didn't "ask" the DOJ to cancel it, cancellation was a decision reached mutually by the agencies involved.
Your sarcasm is duly noted and promptly ignored. The guns from WR that were not retrieved when arrests were made obviously found their way into the hands of the cartels, I think the number was around 400. As for memos and directives, I would assume they exist because, as I stated before, WR WAS STOPPED in 2007.
Holder's fiasco pumped over 2,000 weapons into Mexico without even giving the Mexican government a 'heads up' that they were coming.
At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009[26] and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[18] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.[23]
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Clinton wasn't in office during 9/11, either..yet Clinton and his staff were made to testify at the 9/11 commission.
Dipshit.
You are delusional. Keep telling yourself this is nothing more than a political attack. Close your eyes and tell yourself it's Bush's fault. If you wish real hard maybe it will be true.
You and the entire left are doing what you have done during this entire investigation, ignore the facts and deflect blame to Bush.
Deflect what?
Nothing you've posted in this thread is germane or pertinent to the issue.
Again..what is the ultimate goal here?
Stop the ATF from engaging in these sorts of practices?
Seriously?
Where's the legislation?
Because it's not.
Republicans have been calling for Holder to resign, AT THE HEARING, no less..before all this "investigation" wraps up.
The aim here is pretty clear. And it's nothing to do with procedure or justice.
Swallow and dean have never been known for their brains.Swallow says Obama and Holder are beyond the law in because of them being black and stuff.
LOL
Stupid is sticking with that old dimwit lie. No racist here, just hate stupid as in obamaturd and the dimwits.Swallow says Obama and Holder are beyond the law in because of them being black and stuff.
Nah. Just that the rethugs (including you) are racist and bigots and look for any opportunity to do a lynching.
The butthurt is strong here!
LOLOLOLOLOL
Guess the left has no problem with a dead Border Patrol Agent and who cares about all those dead Mexicans. Hell. The're Mexicans after all.
If a Rep AG and DOJ had done this the left would be screaming bloody murder. Hell. They's be hanging bush in effigy.
Holder and his DOJ are responsible but they are Dems so what the hey. And they are black.
One would think that any honest person would like to know that someone is held responsible for the death of a Border Patrol Agent.
Guess it ain't that important to the left.
Black = special treatment, they are above the law. You know reparations and all.
Maybe because the dimwits give them so much ammo to use, considering that they always do stupid stuff, like vote obamaturd into office.The Republican Party has become the party of "Ah Ha". They think they have a new scheme. A new way to attack the president. To avoid responsibility. The problem with this current debacle is they struck "too soon".
If this had happened, say two weeks before the election, it might have had a chance to actually cause damage to the first African American Attorney General and the first African American President, but with this much time, people will learn the truth. And truth has proven to be the deadly enemy to this current Republican Party.
So forget the fact that Bush used Executive Privilege 6 times while Obama has used it this once. And what did Bush use it for? Things like protecting whoever outed a covert CIA agent, something people other than Republicans think of as "treason".
Forget the fact this program was "officially started" in 2006.
Forget the fact the agent killed wasn't killed with one of these guns.
Forget the fact Holder ordered this program stopped when he found out about it.
Just this simple one thing, when pointed out to thinking Americans, will prove this to be the scheme it is.
When an operation, such as this is put into effect, it takes years of planning. It's no accident is was started in 2006. You know something like this was going on for years. Because it takes years to train people. To make contacts. To put the operation in place. To acquire materials and knowledge. To gather intel. This entire operation began in an area of the country hostile to Obama with people who are Republicans to the core.
Holder didn't enter office with this huge operation already planned out and put in place on day one. It's ludicrous.
Look at the operation that took out Bin Laden after Republicans let him go and stopped looking for him. And it was a very small operation involving a limited number of people. And how long did they plan before the operation went into effect? How much training was involved? How much intel was acquired?
When the size and scope of "Operation Fast and Furious" is revealed and when it started and when Eric Holder took office, it will become apparent this is another attack on Obama by way of Holder. Now for these right wingers, it doesn't matter. They just don't care about truth. I believe my all time favorite post here was when some right winger said Iraq was Obama's fault. That we never should have invaded. This is the same kind of thing.
hahahahaha
I have nothing else, it will do no good. Obama and Holder are black, therefore they are special.
Well there is that.
There is also the fact that they are Democrats.
Republicans are using very serious and extreme measures to further partisan politics.
And this is not the first time. They also seem to be doing it on a regular basis.
So I made a bad assumption, I thought arrests had been made. Sue me.
I find it telling that the Holder DOJ could indict and prosecute those involved with WR on the one hand, and on the other DOUBLE DOWN on the failed operation with one of their own that was even MORE flawed than the first.
That doesn't bother you any?
Dimwits know what they are doing, they just are not that smart about it. rdean and swallows hard know the truth, they just are too stupid to believe it.So I made a bad assumption, I thought arrests had been made. Sue me.
I find it telling that the Holder DOJ could indict and prosecute those involved with WR on the one hand, and on the other DOUBLE DOWN on the failed operation with one of their own that was even MORE flawed than the first.
That doesn't bother you any?
That is stunning isn't it? In 2010 the Justice Dept headed by Holder indicted Bush era ATF agents that were involved in the planning and execution of Wide Receiver while at the same time running a much, much worse operation that involved thousands not hundred of assault weapons and never informed Mexican officials.
Those indictments were politically motivated, that should be obvious now.
Anyone that is going to say that Holder and the Obama administration is not involved in a cover up is simply admitting their own ignorance at best and their own delusional dream at worst.
