Why Emphasizing Manufacturing Jobs is a Mistake

those stats are misleading, they only track grocery store purchases. Not those at McDonalds, pizza hut, etc.

We spend less on essientials such as gas and energy?

We spend less on food relative to incomes.

saupload_food.jpg


We are spending more on energy now relative to the past 10-20 years, but not compared to 40, 50, 100 years.

energy.jpg
 
Yes, we produce many, many times more agricultural products than we did 100 years ago in an industry that employs far fewer people. Food is far less a proportion of our family budgets than it was in the past because food production has become far more efficient because of technological progress. Yet, we have, what, 100 million more jobs than we did back then?

That is the point.

Clearly, You are not a fan of Farm Aid. Hear any good stories about windfall farmers over the last 40 years, dude? Are those AMERICAN FARMERS not worth your time? Do you think our food is BETTER for us now or WORSE for us after it becomes processed into efficiency?

go tell it to Willie Nelson when he performs another year for the benefit of ANOTHER Farm Aid.

That has what to do with the amount of food that is produced in America compared to the past?

In 2008, farm income was at an all-time high as wheat, corn, soybeans, sugar, all hit or approached record levels.

valueofcroplivestock7009.jpg


Payments_nfi7009.jpg



yea dude! boiling down farmers to only those who are factory farms or who can compete with dirt cheep mexican produce MIGHT JUST PRODUCE A GRAPH LIKE THAT. Now, again, did you want to avoid the fact of unemployed farmers over the last 40 years or shall we play this game of hiding behind stats and constructed nomenclature? Ever wonder where those FORMER FUCKING FARMERS went, Toro? Do they not count? Should they wipe the dirt off of their fucking hands and enroll in java programming class? Are you so fucking wrapped up in the cult of FMC that you have no empathy for the rotted generation that killed of family farming JUST SO you can buy cheaper fucking fruit from MEXICO?


This, again, is the direct illustration of why your kind of economic philosophy is dangerous to domestic America.
 
yea dude! boiling down farmers to only those who are factory farms or who can compete with dirt cheep mexican produce MIGHT JUST PRODUCE A GRAPH LIKE THAT. Now, again, did you want to avoid the fact of unemployed farmers over the last 40 years or shall we play this game of hiding behind stats and constructed nomenclature? Ever wonder where those FORMER FUCKING FARMERS went, Toro? Do they not count? Should they wipe the dirt off of their fucking hands and enroll in java programming class? Are you so fucking wrapped up in the cult of FMC that you have no empathy for the rotted generation that killed of family farming JUST SO you can buy cheaper fucking fruit from MEXICO?


This, again, is the direct illustration of why your kind of economic philosophy is dangerous to domestic America.

First, I have no idea what FMC means.

Second, I come from a farming part of the world. They are making a mint right now. Ag is boom/bust. Always has been.

Third, please demonstrate how Mexican farming is undercutting American farming.

Forth, there has been a migration from the farm to the city for 200 years. Tell me why this time should be any different.

If we listened to your "cult philosophy," we'd all still be using hand ploughs.
 
yea dude! boiling down farmers to only those who are factory farms or who can compete with dirt cheep mexican produce MIGHT JUST PRODUCE A GRAPH LIKE THAT. Now, again, did you want to avoid the fact of unemployed farmers over the last 40 years or shall we play this game of hiding behind stats and constructed nomenclature? Ever wonder where those FORMER FUCKING FARMERS went, Toro? Do they not count? Should they wipe the dirt off of their fucking hands and enroll in java programming class? Are you so fucking wrapped up in the cult of FMC that you have no empathy for the rotted generation that killed of family farming JUST SO you can buy cheaper fucking fruit from MEXICO?


This, again, is the direct illustration of why your kind of economic philosophy is dangerous to domestic America.

First, I have no idea what FMC means.

Second, I come from a farming part of the world. They are making a mint right now. Ag is boom/bust. Always has been.

Third, please demonstrate how Mexican farming is undercutting American farming.

Forth, there has been a migration from the farm to the city for 200 years. Tell me why this time should be any different.

If we listened to your "cult philosophy," we'd all still be using hand ploughs.

1. Free Market Capitalism

2. You clearly don't come from the midwest in AMERICA. I would love to see you cite a source indicating any kind of domestic farming boom.

3. Mexican farming undercuts American farming just like it does in production. the SOL of Mexico is cheap as shit compared to the American SOL. By devaluing American farming for the sake of cheaper mexican cost you are doing the same thing to American farmers than your kind has done to American auto workers.

4. Go find a fucking rural part of America and find an answer for yourself, guy. America isn't required to facilitate your batshit cray econ theories just because YOU think everyone should live in the town instead of the country.

and yes, if we listened to MY philosophy AMERICANS WOULD STILL BE ABLE TO FIND WORK THAT MAINTAINS A DOMESTIC SOL WITHOUT HEARING SOME BULLSHIT FROM A CANADIAN ABOUT HOW THEIR BRAND NEW MIN WAGE SERVICE JOB IS BETTER THAN THEIR FORMER FAMILY FUCKING FARM.
 
2. You clearly don't come from the midwest in AMERICA. I would love to see you cite a source indicating any kind of domestic farming boom.

I come from a place that was hit far worse than MidAmerica.

I showed you the income graph. Farm incomes were at all-time highs last year.

Now show us that this is wrong.

3. Mexican farming undercuts American farming just like it does in production. the SOL of Mexico is cheap as shit compared to the American SOL. By devaluing American farming for the sake of cheaper mexican cost you are doing the same thing to American farmers than your kind has done to American auto workers.

Back it up. Walk the talk. Show us that Mexican imports are hurting American farmers.

America is by far and away the largest exporter of ag products in the world. Mexico doesn't even make the list.

FAOSTAT

4. Go find a fucking rural part of America and find an answer for yourself, guy. America isn't required to facilitate your batshit cray econ theories just because YOU think everyone should live in the town instead of the country.

and yes, if we listened to MY philosophy AMERICANS WOULD STILL BE ABLE TO FIND WORK THAT MAINTAINS A DOMESTIC SOL WITHOUT HEARING SOME BULLSHIT FROM A CANADIAN ABOUT HOW THEIR BRAND NEW MIN WAGE SERVICE JOB IS BETTER THAN THEIR FORMER FAMILY FUCKING FARM.

The economy under Shogun.

luddites.jpg
 
Yeah sure 250 million working Americans are all going to be trained to be rocket scientists computer engineers and economists.

Good plan.
 
those stats are misleading, they only track grocery store purchases. Not those at McDonalds, pizza hut, etc.

We spend less on essientials such as gas and energy?

We spend less on food relative to incomes.

saupload_food.jpg


We are spending more on energy now relative to the past 10-20 years, but not compared to 40, 50, 100 years.

energy.jpg

Per dollar of GDP? LMAO

that is exactly the kind of spin I was referring to.

Thanks.
 
Per dollar of GDP? LMAO

that is exactly the kind of spin I was referring to.

Thanks.

I figured you would be able to understand the context of the graph. I guess I was mistaken.

GDP is income. When per unit input of energy to GDP is falling, that means energy as a proportion of the economy is falling, which means that energy relative to income is falling.

Here is a more straightforward graph. It plots energy as a percentage of personal disposable income. As you can see, the trend over the long-term has been down.

nrg_share_jun_09.gif


Econbrowser: Not a robust recovery

Feel free to back up your argument. You have not so far.
 
Yeah sure 250 million working Americans are all going to be trained to be rocket scientists computer engineers and economists.

Good plan.

Again, the point is missed.

A quarter of all jobs created since 1967 weren't even classified as jobs by the Census Bureau in 1967. As new industries arise, not only the jobs directly related to the new industry but the secondary, tertiary jobs, etc. that arise from the new industry are created.
 
Per dollar of GDP? LMAO

that is exactly the kind of spin I was referring to.

Thanks.

I figured you would be able to understand the context of the graph. I guess I was mistaken.

GDP is income. When per unit input of energy to GDP is falling, that means energy as a proportion of the economy is falling, which means that energy relative to income is falling.

Here is a more straightforward graph. It plots energy as a percentage of personal disposable income. As you can see, the trend over the long-term has been down.

nrg_share_jun_09.gif


Econbrowser: Not a robust recovery

Feel free to back up your argument. You have not so far.

GDP is not personal income. nor wage income.

Job's since 1999 have been a net loss.
Wages also dropped when considering inflation.
 

I come from a place that was hit far worse than MidAmerica.

I showed you the income graph. Farm incomes were at all-time highs last year.

Now show us that this is wrong.


I've explained explicitly how you are wrong and why hiding behind a graph that doesn't speak one thing about the droppoff of AMERICAN FARMERS is a joke. Again, of COURSE your graph will make it look like more revenue is being doled out to farmers AFTER THEIR FUCKING POPULATION HAS BEEN CARVED DOWN TO A FRACTION OF WHAT THEY ONCE WERE. In other news, when I reduce water out of chicken stock it tastes more chickeny. HOLY SHIT!

oh, and your opinion about who is hit harder means two things to me. I'm sure you can guess what they are.



Back it up. Walk the talk. Show us that Mexican imports are hurting American farmers.

America is by far and away the largest exporter of ag products in the world. Mexico doesn't even make the list.


Growers are receiving $3 to $5 less on average than last year with comparable volume of produce, he said. Produce from the Mexican market has increased volume and reduced prices, but even the recent freezes that typically reduce volume and raise prices have not had much effect on the market.

"It's been an extremely brutal year," Brown said.
Local tomato growers struggle with low prices: Industry hurt by bad economy, salmonella fear, imports | North America > United States from AllBusiness.com

Toro, I don't give a shit if the full range of domestic export of America is larger than Mexico. You see, WE don't have to abide by your assumption that we must normalize OUR output with that of mexico just because YOU want cheaper labor to produce cheaper things while America gets to fuck itself. And, honestly dude, you probably shouldn't try to rely on graphs and stats if you are going to be so transparently deceptive about comparing variables. Perhaps Mexico doesn't have the range of export partners that the US has. This, however, speaks NOTHING to the fact of nafta's effect on American farmers. That you have to hide behind such silliness pretty much indicates more about your cultish beliefs than you'd like to see.




luddites.jpg


NOTICE, TORO.... they are EMPLOYED AND WORKING.


Toro's plan for America


ghost-town.jpg
 
Yeah sure 250 million working Americans are all going to be trained to be rocket scientists computer engineers and economists.

Good plan.

Half those Americans even believe "science" is a "religion".
 
The Consumer Price Index (CPI) for all food increased 5.5 percent in 2008, the highest annual increase since 1990, and is forecast to increase 1.5 to 2.5 percent in 2009.


Food-at-home prices, led by fats and oils and cereal and bakery product prices, increased 6.4 percent, while food-away-from-home prices rose 4.4 percent in 2008.


Total food expenditures for all food consumed in the U.S. was $1,165.3 billion dollars in 2008, a 3.3-percent increase from $1,128.0 billion in 2007. Spending on food away from home was 48.5 percent of the $1,165.3 billion in total food expenditures in 2008—spending for food at home was 51.5 percent.

ERS/USDA Briefing Room - Food CPI and Expenditures
 
Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

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Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

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Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

------------------------

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

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Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.

You are a complete lunkhead. If I doubted it earlier, you have it proved right here.
All our improvements in farming are due solely to fertilizer run off?:cuckoo: WTF? Do you have a clue what you are talking about?
Have you ever met a Republican? I mean really. I doubt it personally as your descriptions hardly mesh with anything I know for a fact. Besides, I thought the Republicans were the party of the rich? Remember that one? Only rich people were Republicans so they could exploit the poor factory workers, the ones making only $100k with full benefits.
Oops, maybe that stereotype outlived its usefulness as the truth became known.

In fact the Democrats are the ones destroying this country. There is not a major school system that has not been under control of the Democrats in this country for 40 years. And the results are dismal. There is not a major welfare program that has not been designed and administrered by a Democrat in 50 years. And look a tthe results of that. Family structres blown apart, rampant alcohol and drug abuse, physical violence etc. There is not a major city that has not been under Democratic dominance for 30+ years and in every one there is crime, poverty, and hopelessness. So tell me again how Republicans are destroying this country. Tell me how Republicans don't beleive in education. Tell me how Republicans are against the family and working people.
No, the enemy here is the Democrats, the Party of Fuck You.

Republicans have voted against Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, laws for Child Dependency protection.

Republicans gave the richest Americans a 1.3 trillion dollar tax break while running two wars.

If American schools are so bad, why are they the best in the world, after all, they are all run by those dumb elitist liberals who believe in science and evolution and research.

All our improvements in farming are due solely to fertilizer run off?:cuckoo:
I'm not even sure where this came from because your bobble head moves around so. Farming production may have shot up, but not without damage to our environment. You might want to do some of that dreaded "research" to find out if I'm right.

Besides, the most recent advance in farming, studying the genetics of plants, hybrids, all that stuff comes from those darn liberal elites. After all, to Republicans, science is a religion. Since only 6% of American scientists even admit to being Republican, I wonder what their main fields are. Probably something to do with the "social sciences". It's a good bet they aren't studying paleontology or plate tectonics. :lol::lol:
 
I love it when people bust out charts. Nowadays on the intarweb, anyone can find a site with an pro/against agenda on just about anything and find a "graph/data" that "supports" their claims. Even from "legit" sites.

Why don't we discuss more at a plain and simple logical level? I'm confident most of us here can think for themselves on this simple issue.

The OP's claim that manufacturing tangible goods isn't important can't be right. Simply put, an economy as large as ours cannot survive on white collar jobs with minimal blue collar because most of the white collar jobs deals is directly or indirectly related to manufacturing; even if the tangible products aren't manufactured here.

Plain simple logic so easy a caveman can understand: When you give someone else 100% control of tangible products, you're giving them the leverage to just continue to cut you down on those tangible products. YOu don't control your "white collar jobs" without controlling tangible products. This doesn't even go into the fact that you are giving up proprietary techonology to your competitors (Japan is going to get their clocks cleaned soon because of this).

That's what's happening now and that's why factories are shutting down and this in turn leads to loss of white collar jobs also.
 
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I've explained explicitly how you are wrong and why hiding behind a graph that doesn't speak one thing about the droppoff of AMERICAN FARMERS is a joke. Again, of COURSE your graph will make it look like more revenue is being doled out to farmers AFTER THEIR FUCKING POPULATION HAS BEEN CARVED DOWN TO A FRACTION OF WHAT THEY ONCE WERE. In other news, when I reduce water out of chicken stock it tastes more chickeny. HOLY SHIT!

First, that graph is total income. So total income has been rising for farmers.

Second, migration from the farm has been going on for two centuries. Tell me why that should stop happening in 2010.

oh, and your opinion about who is hit harder means two things to me. I'm sure you can guess what they are.

Then don't pull this holier-than-though shit.

Growers are receiving $3 to $5 less on average than last year with comparable volume of produce, he said. Produce from the Mexican market has increased volume and reduced prices, but even the recent freezes that typically reduce volume and raise prices have not had much effect on the market.

"It's been an extremely brutal year," Brown said.
Local tomato growers struggle with low prices: Industry hurt by bad economy, salmonella fear, imports | North America > United States from AllBusiness.com

Yes, that's right, tomato farmers account for all of farming. :rolleyes:

OMG, someone got fired today Shogun! Capitalism sucks!

You can always find anecdotes to support your own belief set and ideology.

Toro, I don't give a shit if the full range of domestic export of America is larger than Mexico. You see, WE don't have to abide by your assumption that we must normalize OUR output with that of mexico just because YOU want cheaper labor to produce cheaper things while America gets to fuck itself. And, honestly dude, you probably shouldn't try to rely on graphs and stats if you are going to be so transparently deceptive about comparing variables. Perhaps Mexico doesn't have the range of export partners that the US has. This, however, speaks NOTHING to the fact of nafta's effect on American farmers. That you have to hide behind such silliness pretty much indicates more about your cultish beliefs than you'd like to see.

Of course you don't give a shit. You seem to be more interested in cherry-picking anecdotes to support your worldview. That's why you use anecdotes and deride empirical statistics and facts.

If you think that NAFTA has had an adverse effect on farming, back it up. Walk the talk. I'm more than interested in learning but all you've done is rant and bluster.

NOTICE, TORO.... they are EMPLOYED AND WORKING.

Yes, in the 18th century. Paradise!

Luddite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I love it when people bust out charts. Nowadays on the intarweb, anyone can find a site with an pro/against agenda on just about anything and find a "graph/data" that "supports" their claims. Even from "legit" sites.

Then feel free to point out what is wrong, but do so with empirical data, not with preconceived notions. Use empiricism, not ideology.

Why don't we discuss more at a plain and simple logical level? I'm confident most of us here can think for themselves on this simple issue.

I'm also confident that if people think without knowing facts than they will come to the wrong conclusion.

The OP's claim that manufacturing tangible goods isn't important can't be right. Simply put, an economy as large as ours cannot survive on white collar jobs with minimal blue collar because most of the white collar jobs deals is directly or indirectly related to manufacturing; even if the tangible products aren't manufactured here.

Plain simple logic so easy a caveman can understand: When you give someone else 100% control of tangible products, you're giving them the leverage to just continue to cut you down on those tangible products. YOu don't control your "white collar jobs" without controlling tangible products. This doesn't even go into the fact that you are giving up proprietary techonology to your competitors (Japan is going to get their clocks cleaned soon because of this).

That's what's happening now and that's why factories are shutting down and this in turn leads to loss of white collar jobs also.

First of all, you misread the OP. The OP discussed manufacturing jobs. Perhaps what you might not know is that until this recession, even though manufacturing jobs had been falling, manufacturing output had been rising. This is the same path as agriculture where we produce much more with far fewer people. So the idea that we have given up 100% control over producing tangible goods is simply false.
 
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Ya all really need to read "Player Piano" By Kurt Vonnegut.


This whole argument was rather well covered by that book.
 

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