Why Emphasizing Manufacturing Jobs is a Mistake

Toro

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2005
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Surfing the Oceans of Liquidity
Great article.

As a percentage of the workforce, White Collar occupations grew from 18% to 60% of employees over the course of the 20th century, as show in this graph:

WhiteCollar.png


What does this mean?

Farm productivity has exploded, increasing 1.9% per year over the last half of the century. At that rate, every 100 years, the same inputs on a farm produce 6.5 times as much foodstuffs. The percentage of the population engaged in farming dropped from 40% to under 2%, and yet we became a great exporting power in agricultural products.

Similarly, manufacturing productivity rose 1.3%, on average, over the course of the second half of the 20th century. A brief list of 20th century mechanical engineering achievements is instructive. From better distribution (automotive), to better storage (air conditioning), to better production (glass, paper, metal), to better power generation (energy), the list of advances in making "stuff" has meant that we produce more and better stuff each year, with fewer costs and materials per unit.

Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

The end result of our being able to make things more readily is that we've found we need fewer and fewer people to actually make stuff.

This is the process of commoditization, and it is a good thing for our economy.

If you think about it, all human endeavors become commoditized. Newton and Liebniz, in the 17th century, were the only guys in the entire world who were smart enough to figure out the calculus. Today, it's something bright high schoolers master before going to college.

If you had told J.P. Morgan, at the turn of the last century, that someday his specialized field -- that of pricing risk on debt to corporations -- would be profitably pursued by over 100,000 professionals in the United States, we can forgive his lack of foresight for scoffing at you.

Indeed, in every field we see the body of knowledge progress from discovery, to experimentation, to mastery, to routinization.

And because we've commoditized the skills behind production, it is easy for labor in foreign lands to master it, and earn the lower wages that come with routine skills.

What does that leave for us? Will we end up a nation bereft of earnings power, the equivalent of a couch potato uncle, past his prime? No.

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

So while that iPod "counts" as $150 on China's export ledger, in reality, the majority of the profitability of the iPod goes to Apple, and to the national distribution channels through which it is shipped.

Really, it should be no surprise that final assembly is the least valuable, and the design genius of Apple the most valuable, work that go into an iPod, iPhone, or (coming soon!) iTablet. It's been that way all along.

What the 20th century statistics don't capture about the departure of our manufacturing base is it's always been that way.

The implementation of all of those fantastic mechanical engineering feats above, and the rise in productivity thereby produced, always meant that some marginal labor was being replaced by automated processes. But because it all previously occurred within the confines of a firm, it was difficult to piece out that value created at a GE was increasingly coming from the Masters of Crotonville and less and less from the factory floor.

Today, with the ability to componentize a company, and separate its marketing from its production from its distribution, it's more obvious when the jobs have shipped to another state, or another country. But the history of work in America is an inexorable, inevitable shift to the work of the mind.

And I, for one, think that's a good thing. Because the more people we have engaged in medical research, or designing great electronics, or simply making trenchant observations on our internet economy, the better for us.

We are a White Collar nation, and our future is very bright.

stone: Our White Collar Nation
 
I've never heard a politician say "When my child grows up, I want them to have a job in a factory".

Nope, they just want everybody else child to have a job in a factory.
 
Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

-----------------------

Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

------------------------

Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

------------------------

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

-------------------------

Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.
 
Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

-----------------------

Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

------------------------

Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

------------------------

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

-------------------------

Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.
What kind of manufacturing plant do you want your child to work in?
 
Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

-----------------------

Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

------------------------

Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

------------------------

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

-------------------------

Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.
What kind of manufacturing plant do you want your child to work in?

First, a "child" shouldn't have to work in a factory.

Second, if it's a choice between a manufacturing plant and living on the street, then I would say, "A clean one that pays a fair salary".

Most Republicans have no idea what it takes to be an engineer or a scientist. For Christ sakes, they believe in "magical creation" and think education is, "Just a piece of paper". Many say that "peer review" is a lie. Ask a Republican what "peer review" is and 99% have no clue, they just "know" it's a lie.
 
As I have posted for some time, Manufacturing makes up less than ten percent of our economy. Ironically, that is still twice that of the next biggest manufacturing country which is Japan. I do not believe the Red Chinese claims that they have passed Japan.
 
Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

-----------------------

Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

------------------------

Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

------------------------

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

-------------------------

Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.
What kind of manufacturing plant do you want your child to work in?

First, a "child" shouldn't have to work in a factory.

Second, if it's a choice between a manufacturing plant and living on the street, then I would say, "A clean one that pays a fair salary".

Most Republicans have no idea what it takes to be an engineer or a scientist. For Christ sakes, they believe in "magical creation" and think education is, "Just a piece of paper". Many say that "peer review" is a lie. Ask a Republican what "peer review" is and 99% have no clue, they just "know" it's a lie.

I meant adult children, but whatever, you knew that and chose to take the low road.
Why are you using "Christ" to make your point? Are you one of those religious fundamental types?


Edit to add
I never said it was an either/or choice. I asked an open question. You put some arbitrary limitation on it.
 
Last edited:
Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

-----------------------

Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

------------------------

Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

------------------------

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

-------------------------

Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.
What kind of manufacturing plant do you want your child to work in?

One like I work in.

Wages = hourly wage plus profit sharing.

Made a bit over 100k last year, only a bit over 50k this year. Cadillac health care plan. Very good pension plan that does not depend on the continued existance of my company.
And the best safety record in the steel industry.

The job I have is not only physically challenging, but also mentally challeging. The job satisfaction where I work is probably one of the highest of any company in the nation.
 
Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

-----------------------

Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

------------------------

Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

------------------------

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

-------------------------

Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.
What kind of manufacturing plant do you want your child to work in?

One like I work in.

Wages = hourly wage plus profit sharing.

Made a bit over 100k last year, only a bit over 50k this year. Cadillac health care plan. Very good pension plan that does not depend on the continued existance of my company.
And the best safety record in the steel industry.

The job I have is not only physically challenging, but also mentally challeging. The job satisfaction where I work is probably one of the highest of any company in the nation.

Sounds like you you like your job and employer. Good deal.
Cadillac health care plans will potentially see a tax increase for you based upon the current health care legislation, but other than that, sounds like you have what you want.
 
Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

-----------------------

Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

------------------------

Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

------------------------

In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

-------------------------

Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.
What kind of manufacturing plant do you want your child to work in?

One like I work in.

Wages = hourly wage plus profit sharing.

Made a bit over 100k last year, only a bit over 50k this year. Cadillac health care plan. Very good pension plan that does not depend on the continued existance of my company.
And the best safety record in the steel industry.

The job I have is not only physically challenging, but also mentally challeging. The job satisfaction where I work is probably one of the highest of any company in the nation.

I design test equipment. I don't make quite as much as you do, but to see my designs manufactured and sold is a kick like "Project Runway".

The economy was so bad in the last year, the staff had to take a 10% pay cut, no profit sharing, cut in dental and health care. Since the products are many, but the volume is low and since it's test equipment, when inventory is high and companies slow down, the work can go away. The people in the factory worked 8 days a month for four months last year.

Orders have been good the last month. Usually when orders pick up, it means the economy is picking up since the test equipment is purchased to support manufacturing. We can only hope. Most of the engineers moonlight on the side - one teaches physics at a downtown University, one handles the computer system at another company, a lady electrical and PLC programming engineer is married and her husband has a very good job, but those in the shop depend on their jobs 100%.

I don't know if it means anything, but only one of the engineers says he is Republican and they all said they voted for Obama. We all agree the Republican party has become too right wing, too radical and just too ignorant.

Because I work for a company that makes equipment that is sold worldwide, I get to meet engineers from Europe and Asia. They come here to be trained and to order "specials" that are newly developed options. Of course, we work with them to develop these options which means we can gauge their ability as engineers. I can say that I have never met an engineer I could call dumb. I have heard Republicans on this site talk about engineers who have no "common sense". That is just wishful thinking. And while I feel I'm a pretty good engineer, some of them make me feel downright stupid simply because of their brilliance. And for sure, America has no corner on the market. Those that refuse to compete, WILL be left behind.

And because of all this, I become highly riled when Republicans say "education" is just a piece of paper and they delegitimize science with that "ID" crap. Republican leaders may say liberals are more dangerous to America than the terrorists, but the truth is, the "determined ignorance" of those on the right is far, far more dangerous. Republicans and terrorists work hand in hand. Republicans undermine America from within with their fear-mongering and by calling the educated "elitist" and working to make the president fail. The terrorists just try to bomb.
 
I design test equipment. I don't make quite as much as you do, but to see my designs manufactured and sold is a kick like "Project Runway".

The economy was so bad in the last year, the staff had to take a 10% pay cut, no profit sharing, cut in dental and health care. Since the products are many, but the volume is low and since it's test equipment, when inventory is high and companies slow down, the work can go away. The people in the factory worked 8 days a month for four months last year.

Orders have been good the last month. Usually when orders pick up, it means the economy is picking up since the test equipment is purchased to support manufacturing. We can only hope. Most of the engineers moonlight on the side - one teaches physics at a downtown University, one handles the computer system at another company, a lady electrical and PLC programming engineer is married and her husband has a very good job, but those in the shop depend on their jobs 100%.

I don't know if it means anything, but only one of the engineers says he is Republican and they all said they voted for Obama. We all agree the Republican party has become too right wing, too radical and just too ignorant.

Because I work for a company that makes equipment that is sold worldwide, I get to meet engineers from Europe and Asia. They come here to be trained and to order "specials" that are newly developed options. Of course, we work with them to develop these options which means we can gauge their ability as engineers. I can say that I have never met an engineer I could call dumb. I have heard Republicans on this site talk about engineers who have no "common sense". That is just wishful thinking. And while I feel I'm a pretty good engineer, some of them make me feel downright stupid simply because of their brilliance. And for sure, America has no corner on the market. Those that refuse to compete, WILL be left behind.

And because of all this, I become highly riled when Republicans say "education" is just a piece of paper and they delegitimize science with that "ID" crap. Republican leaders may say liberals are more dangerous to America than the terrorists, but the truth is, the "determined ignorance" of those on the right is far, far more dangerous. Republicans and terrorists work hand in hand. Republicans undermine America from within with their fear-mongering and by calling the educated "elitist" and working to make the president fail. The terrorists just try to bomb.

Generalize and stereotype much?
Your personal diatribe is just that, a diatribe and nothing else.
 
Well, I am just a millwright, and the job is occasionaly very dirty, and, around the furnaces, it is not uncommon to work at tempertures exceeding 120 F. With full work gear on.

But I am daily doing problem solving, and building additions onto the machinery. I cannot look at any part of the mill without seeing things I have built, or improved. There is an enormous satisfaction in that.

I am one of those that occasions dis engineers. Primarily because of forgetting to design machinery to be maintenanced. On the other hand, I have often been floored by the abilities of some engineers to come up with completely off the wall solutions that I would never have considered.

The propagation of willfull ignorance by the Conservatives, as opposed to conservatives, is absolutely the greatest danger to our nation today. It affects every thing from our reaction to the dangers of climate change, to failure of our education system to keep up with the sytems in Europe and Asia.

We are getting more orders now in our company, just the opposite of most years when the orders decline sharply this time of year. We are beginning to hire back some of our people.

I hope your companies upward trend continues.
 
I design test equipment. I don't make quite as much as you do, but to see my designs manufactured and sold is a kick like "Project Runway".

The economy was so bad in the last year, the staff had to take a 10% pay cut, no profit sharing, cut in dental and health care. Since the products are many, but the volume is low and since it's test equipment, when inventory is high and companies slow down, the work can go away. The people in the factory worked 8 days a month for four months last year.

Orders have been good the last month. Usually when orders pick up, it means the economy is picking up since the test equipment is purchased to support manufacturing. We can only hope. Most of the engineers moonlight on the side - one teaches physics at a downtown University, one handles the computer system at another company, a lady electrical and PLC programming engineer is married and her husband has a very good job, but those in the shop depend on their jobs 100%.

I don't know if it means anything, but only one of the engineers says he is Republican and they all said they voted for Obama. We all agree the Republican party has become too right wing, too radical and just too ignorant.

Because I work for a company that makes equipment that is sold worldwide, I get to meet engineers from Europe and Asia. They come here to be trained and to order "specials" that are newly developed options. Of course, we work with them to develop these options which means we can gauge their ability as engineers. I can say that I have never met an engineer I could call dumb. I have heard Republicans on this site talk about engineers who have no "common sense". That is just wishful thinking. And while I feel I'm a pretty good engineer, some of them make me feel downright stupid simply because of their brilliance. And for sure, America has no corner on the market. Those that refuse to compete, WILL be left behind.

And because of all this, I become highly riled when Republicans say "education" is just a piece of paper and they delegitimize science with that "ID" crap. Republican leaders may say liberals are more dangerous to America than the terrorists, but the truth is, the "determined ignorance" of those on the right is far, far more dangerous. Republicans and terrorists work hand in hand. Republicans undermine America from within with their fear-mongering and by calling the educated "elitist" and working to make the president fail. The terrorists just try to bomb.

Generalize and stereotype much?
Your personal diatribe is just that, a diatribe and nothing else.

His statements are accurate. Any time there is a bill for the improvement of educational facilities, the Republicans in our state are totally against it. Some of them have argued for the inclusion of 'Creationists' ideas in our schools basic science books.
 
I design test equipment. I don't make quite as much as you do, but to see my designs manufactured and sold is a kick like "Project Runway".

The economy was so bad in the last year, the staff had to take a 10% pay cut, no profit sharing, cut in dental and health care. Since the products are many, but the volume is low and since it's test equipment, when inventory is high and companies slow down, the work can go away. The people in the factory worked 8 days a month for four months last year.

Orders have been good the last month. Usually when orders pick up, it means the economy is picking up since the test equipment is purchased to support manufacturing. We can only hope. Most of the engineers moonlight on the side - one teaches physics at a downtown University, one handles the computer system at another company, a lady electrical and PLC programming engineer is married and her husband has a very good job, but those in the shop depend on their jobs 100%.

I don't know if it means anything, but only one of the engineers says he is Republican and they all said they voted for Obama. We all agree the Republican party has become too right wing, too radical and just too ignorant.

Because I work for a company that makes equipment that is sold worldwide, I get to meet engineers from Europe and Asia. They come here to be trained and to order "specials" that are newly developed options. Of course, we work with them to develop these options which means we can gauge their ability as engineers. I can say that I have never met an engineer I could call dumb. I have heard Republicans on this site talk about engineers who have no "common sense". That is just wishful thinking. And while I feel I'm a pretty good engineer, some of them make me feel downright stupid simply because of their brilliance. And for sure, America has no corner on the market. Those that refuse to compete, WILL be left behind.

And because of all this, I become highly riled when Republicans say "education" is just a piece of paper and they delegitimize science with that "ID" crap. Republican leaders may say liberals are more dangerous to America than the terrorists, but the truth is, the "determined ignorance" of those on the right is far, far more dangerous. Republicans and terrorists work hand in hand. Republicans undermine America from within with their fear-mongering and by calling the educated "elitist" and working to make the president fail. The terrorists just try to bomb.

Generalize and stereotype much?
Your personal diatribe is just that, a diatribe and nothing else.

Except that it's true. Listening to Michael Steel right on down through the Republican party. Senators, Congressmen, governors. Republicans have become the party of "wackos". The terrible things they say. What they promote. Where are the moderate voices? Ask Republicans what they have done for America in the last 15 years and they will say, "Well, besides 9/11, we kept America safe".
Republicans say they don't like being accused, but how can they hear when they are screaming such vitriol as, "Communist, Socialist, Marxist, Fascist, terrorist, liar"?
I feel if I see another Republican who is protesting health care, saying, when asked, "Do you have health care?", either "No", or "No government health care, leave my Medicare alone", I will slap that face.
 
I design test equipment. I don't make quite as much as you do, but to see my designs manufactured and sold is a kick like "Project Runway".

The economy was so bad in the last year, the staff had to take a 10% pay cut, no profit sharing, cut in dental and health care. Since the products are many, but the volume is low and since it's test equipment, when inventory is high and companies slow down, the work can go away. The people in the factory worked 8 days a month for four months last year.

Orders have been good the last month. Usually when orders pick up, it means the economy is picking up since the test equipment is purchased to support manufacturing. We can only hope. Most of the engineers moonlight on the side - one teaches physics at a downtown University, one handles the computer system at another company, a lady electrical and PLC programming engineer is married and her husband has a very good job, but those in the shop depend on their jobs 100%.

I don't know if it means anything, but only one of the engineers says he is Republican and they all said they voted for Obama. We all agree the Republican party has become too right wing, too radical and just too ignorant.

Because I work for a company that makes equipment that is sold worldwide, I get to meet engineers from Europe and Asia. They come here to be trained and to order "specials" that are newly developed options. Of course, we work with them to develop these options which means we can gauge their ability as engineers. I can say that I have never met an engineer I could call dumb. I have heard Republicans on this site talk about engineers who have no "common sense". That is just wishful thinking. And while I feel I'm a pretty good engineer, some of them make me feel downright stupid simply because of their brilliance. And for sure, America has no corner on the market. Those that refuse to compete, WILL be left behind.

And because of all this, I become highly riled when Republicans say "education" is just a piece of paper and they delegitimize science with that "ID" crap. Republican leaders may say liberals are more dangerous to America than the terrorists, but the truth is, the "determined ignorance" of those on the right is far, far more dangerous. Republicans and terrorists work hand in hand. Republicans undermine America from within with their fear-mongering and by calling the educated "elitist" and working to make the president fail. The terrorists just try to bomb.

Generalize and stereotype much?
Your personal diatribe is just that, a diatribe and nothing else.

Except that it's true. Listening to Michael Steel right on down through the Republican party. Senators, Congressmen, governors. Republicans have become the party of "wackos". The terrible things they say. What they promote. Where are the moderate voices? Ask Republicans what they have done for America in the last 15 years and they will say, "Well, besides 9/11, we kept America safe".
Republicans say they don't like being accused, but how can they hear when they are screaming such vitriol as, "Communist, Socialist, Marxist, Fascist, terrorist, liar"?
I feel if I see another Republican who is protesting health care, saying, when asked, "Do you have health care?", either "No", or "No government health care, leave my Medicare alone", I will slap that face.

Still just your diatribe.
Keep it up.
 
I design test equipment. I don't make quite as much as you do, but to see my designs manufactured and sold is a kick like "Project Runway".

The economy was so bad in the last year, the staff had to take a 10% pay cut, no profit sharing, cut in dental and health care. Since the products are many, but the volume is low and since it's test equipment, when inventory is high and companies slow down, the work can go away. The people in the factory worked 8 days a month for four months last year.

Orders have been good the last month. Usually when orders pick up, it means the economy is picking up since the test equipment is purchased to support manufacturing. We can only hope. Most of the engineers moonlight on the side - one teaches physics at a downtown University, one handles the computer system at another company, a lady electrical and PLC programming engineer is married and her husband has a very good job, but those in the shop depend on their jobs 100%.

I don't know if it means anything, but only one of the engineers says he is Republican and they all said they voted for Obama. We all agree the Republican party has become too right wing, too radical and just too ignorant.

Because I work for a company that makes equipment that is sold worldwide, I get to meet engineers from Europe and Asia. They come here to be trained and to order "specials" that are newly developed options. Of course, we work with them to develop these options which means we can gauge their ability as engineers. I can say that I have never met an engineer I could call dumb. I have heard Republicans on this site talk about engineers who have no "common sense". That is just wishful thinking. And while I feel I'm a pretty good engineer, some of them make me feel downright stupid simply because of their brilliance. And for sure, America has no corner on the market. Those that refuse to compete, WILL be left behind.

And because of all this, I become highly riled when Republicans say "education" is just a piece of paper and they delegitimize science with that "ID" crap. Republican leaders may say liberals are more dangerous to America than the terrorists, but the truth is, the "determined ignorance" of those on the right is far, far more dangerous. Republicans and terrorists work hand in hand. Republicans undermine America from within with their fear-mongering and by calling the educated "elitist" and working to make the president fail. The terrorists just try to bomb.

Generalize and stereotype much?
Your personal diatribe is just that, a diatribe and nothing else.

His statements are accurate. Any time there is a bill for the improvement of educational facilities, the Republicans in our state are totally against it. Some of them have argued for the inclusion of 'Creationists' ideas in our schools basic science books.

And of course you both have links to prove it, right?
As in links that show that all republicans think that way?
 
What kind of manufacturing plant do you want your child to work in?

One like I work in.

Wages = hourly wage plus profit sharing.

Made a bit over 100k last year, only a bit over 50k this year. Cadillac health care plan. Very good pension plan that does not depend on the continued existance of my company.
And the best safety record in the steel industry.

The job I have is not only physically challenging, but also mentally challeging. The job satisfaction where I work is probably one of the highest of any company in the nation.

Of course you do.

And the reason why both you and rdean are compensated well is because you have a high skill set. You aren't paid well because you are in a union (even if you are in a good union) or because you are in manufacturing. You are paid well because you are highly productive. America will always have skilled and productive jobs, as long as we remain highly skilled and productive.

The reason why there are fewer and fewer manufacturing jobs is because American manufacturing is amongst the most productive industries on earth. Highly productive industries eventually eliminate lowly productive workers. Sorry, that's how it has always been and will always be. And it is high productivity which causes fast economic growth. The economy basically grows over the long-term at the rate of population growth plus the rate of productivity growth. If we try to save manufacturing jobs simply for the sake of saving manufacturing jobs, then we are saving lower productivity industries, which means we grow slower. Growing slower does not improve the lot of the nation, though it may improve a few people lucky enough to have one of those lowly productive jobs, which would be at the expense of everyone else.

We produce many multiple times more food today than we did in 1900, even though 40%-50% of the population worked on a farm back then compared to ~3% today. Farmers and people who work in manufacturing are much, much better paid than they were 100 years ago because they are much more productive. We could all be employed if everyone went back to tilling the land by hand but we'd all be dirt poor.
 
Well, I am just a millwright, and the job is occasionaly very dirty, and, around the furnaces, it is not uncommon to work at tempertures exceeding 120 F. With full work gear on.

But I am daily doing problem solving, and building additions onto the machinery. I cannot look at any part of the mill without seeing things I have built, or improved. There is an enormous satisfaction in that.

I am one of those that occasions dis engineers. Primarily because of forgetting to design machinery to be maintenanced. On the other hand, I have often been floored by the abilities of some engineers to come up with completely off the wall solutions that I would never have considered.

The propagation of willfull ignorance by the Conservatives, as opposed to conservatives, is absolutely the greatest danger to our nation today. It affects every thing from our reaction to the dangers of climate change, to failure of our education system to keep up with the sytems in Europe and Asia.

We are getting more orders now in our company, just the opposite of most years when the orders decline sharply this time of year. We are beginning to hire back some of our people.

I hope your companies upward trend continues.

So do I.

Speaking of designing for maintenance, I have a quick story about why many companies need a "manufacturing engineer".
Sometimes the company will pay a local University to develop "something". The last time was for a certain type of "heat exchanger" for a very specific need. There were about 12 engineering students and they designed and built a working model as a senior design project AND they did an admirable job - BUT they didn't design it for manufacturing.

The boss gave this to the engineer in front of me and told him to develop a BM and instructions and get it into production. So the guy comes to me and says, "Dean, we can't put this into production. The service engineers would kill me. The over temperature switch was underneath the tank. You could only get to it by turning it over. The solenoids were between the tank and the pump and the valve was under the solenoids and the heat exchanger was upside down. It worked, but it was a joke.

I told him he had to tell the boss, which he did. The boss told him the unit had been tested and was fine, do what he's told. So he comes back and told me what our boss said. I told him, the boss is working hard, he's not visualizing the problem. Make a computer model and show the boss the working unit and the computer model side by side and he will change his mind.

Well, our boss does give "commands" and expects people to "jump" occasionally, but he is also very intelligent and flexible when given "evidence". So this other engineer did exactly that. He put together a model with EXACTLY the same components, but the solenoids and the on/off valve were in the front. The tank was next to the pump. The over-temperature was on the side and all the wiring went to a single, contact safe terminal block with a plug connector.

So he goes and gets the boss who is furious, but he listens, after the guy goes through the new model, the boss, says, "Well, I guess we just dodged a bullet. I hate to think of what Service would have said if they saw that mess". So, designing for service is absolutely NO JOKE. The design could be the best in the world, but if you can's service it, it's no good. Could you imagine the overtemperature reset on the bottom so you have to turn the entire unit OVER to reset?
 
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Oh man. In my estimation, that is one of the dumbest, most ridiculous articles ever. It's difficult to know where to start.

Farming - increased production comes at a cost, fertilizer and pesticides and their overuse are ruining our drinking water, streams, rivers and oceans. Information is so easy to find on that, I will continue.

Not everyone can be an engineer. What about all those Republicans who live in poor states in trailers? With no manufacturing jobs, what are they going to do? Not everyone can work at a McDonald's. Those people already vote against their own self-interests in everything from health care and education to taxes and security.

Only 6% of scientists are Republican.

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Consider your TV, car, refrigerator, stove, and calculator in the 1970s compared to what you have today. They are better, faster, safer, and more effective.

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Yea, and NOT made here. If only a few people can afford those things, only a few will be sold. That doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus, you need people to FIX the machines that make the machines. Without a "liberal elitists education in science or engineering", what will those Republicans do?

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In the United States, the increase in white collar labor means that we are becoming a nation of thinkers -- web designers, engineers, marketers, IP lawyers, deal guys, inventors, dreamers, and mavericks.

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Engineers, inventors, thinkers? Does that sound even remotely Republican? We're talking "Tea baggers" here.

Losing manufacturing is bad enough for the Democrats, but it's even more devastating for the country because now you have all those loony ARMED Republicans, angry and with nothing to do.

You are a complete lunkhead. If I doubted it earlier, you have it proved right here.
All our improvements in farming are due solely to fertilizer run off? WTF? Do you have a clue what you are talking about?
Have you ever met a Republican? I mean really. I doubt it personally as your descriptions hardly mesh with anything I know for a fact. Besides, I thought the Republicans were the party of the rich? Remember that one? Only rich people were Republicans so they could exploit the poor factory workers, the ones making only $100k with full benefits.
Oops, maybe that stereotype outlived its usefulness as the truth became known.

In fact the Democrats are the ones destroying this country. There is not a major school system that has not been under control of the Democrats in this country for 40 years. And the results are dismal. There is not a major welfare program that has not been designed and administrered by a Democrat in 50 years. And look a tthe results of that. Family structres blown apart, rampant alcohol and drug abuse, physical violence etc. There is not a major city that has not been under Democratic dominance for 30+ years and in every one there is crime, poverty, and hopelessness. So tell me again how Republicans are destroying this country. Tell me how Republicans don't beleive in education. Tell me how Republicans are against the family and working people.
No, the enemy here is the Democrats, the Party of Fuck You.
 

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