Why does Obama Support Zelaya?

[Sweet Willy]

For a guy who's bitching about my simple-mindedness, you sure are having a difficult time grasping the nuances of international relations...

There is no nuance there. It's simple minded chatter. Not worthy of further comment.

Are you related to JB? He also has an annoying habit of calling his opponents stupid...

So you get that often, do you?

 

[eagleseven]

There is no nuance there. It's simple minded chatter. Not worthy of further comment.

Are you related to JB? He also has an annoying habit of calling his opponents stupid...

So you get that often, do you?

No, just from you. You're quite the anomaly!

 

[DiveCon]

Is the logic too difficult for you to understand?

1. Zelaya = Chavez's puppet. Bloody hell, Zelaya's being flown around South America on Chavez's jetliner!

2. Obama supports Zelaya.

3. Therefore, Obama supports Chavez's puppet.

4. Hence, Obama supports Chavez.

Perhaps you don't see it that way, but I assure you, Chavez does.


The UN that was too cowardly to condemn the massacre in Iran is immaterial.

For a guy who's bitching about my simple-mindedness, you sure are having a difficult time grasping the nuances of international relations...

sweet willy is a mooncalf

 

[Tech_Esq]

I think you you've taken the wrong lesson from that. You've got a recent crop of tin horn dictators and wannabe dictators down there running Chavez' BS Bolavarian Republic or whatever he's calling it these days.

You ever notice that dictators like to liken themselves to past great people to sort of take on some of that heroism themselves? With Chavez it's Simon de Bolivar, with Hitler it was Fredrick the Great, with Obama it's Abraham Lincoln.... Ooops.....did I say that?

Back to the point, tin horn dictators don't like it when examples are made of other dictators in their neighborhood; it's bad for business. Dictatin' ain't easy you know. (It's hard bein' a pimp).

Tech, c'mon. I know you're better than that. Why do you have to follow the path of the intellectual midgets in thinking for some bizarre reason that the only government in this entire region is Venezuela's? Why is everyone saying that? I just can't comprehend. Here we are, I know that not everybody who is "for the coup" is a raving idiot, but surely, even the raving idiots can look at a map and realize that there are more than 20 countries here right? Why do Americans suddenly think appropriate to reduce 500,000,000 people into 3 countries [Cuba, Honduras, Venezuela]? Whatever Happened to Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Uruguay, and Paraguay? Why are people adamantly claiming that now EVERYBODY is run by Chavez or by "Leftists Dictators"? We tried so hard for so long to finally get elections, parliaments, democracies, and now that is all reduced to nothing, because those elected aren't to your liking. Everything is run by "leftists dictators," apparently. But hey, on the bright side, nobody's sending us death squads anymore.

With such a simple-minded view of this world, no thinking person can take these opinions seriously.

Were it true that you were correct an I'm only talking about Chavez and the Castro brothers, you might have a point. I'm not sure whether you're ignorant of the truth or whether you are assuming that I am so that you can try to get other people to believe in the misrepresentation you put forward.

So, let's take a look at Latin America. First stop is Venezuela. I've been watching Venezuela closely for about 5 years because I could see what was going to happen there. I have a friend of mine whose family is from El Salvador and has the expected view of the use of American power in Latin America and especially that use in Central America in the 1980s. We've gone back and forth about this for years. His common refrain is that "the farmers in the field don't care anything about the government. Communist, right-wing dictators, democracy, they don't care. They just want to be left alone. The US has no right going into those countries and stirring up trouble."

So, when Chavez popped his head up, I thought it was a prime opportunity to teach Juan an abject lesson in power politics and the formation of dictatorships in Latin America. So I started providing Juan periodic "Uncle Hugo" updates. When Hugo bought 40,000 AK-47s, I reported on it. When Hugo planted listening devices and wire taps on his political opponents and played the recordings on the public air, I reported it. When Hugo had his political opponents attacked by his minions, I reported it. When Hugo began extorting his neighbors to buy into the Bolivar Republic, I reported it. When he was giving them oil, bribing, cajoling, supporting socialist candidates for office....interfering in the political processes of those countries to advance his collectivist schemes.

I don't want this to be a wall of text, so I'll stop here. I'll pick up the other countries in a future post.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Picking up the discussion.... You asked about the rest of the countries in Latin America. From MSNBC:

ASUNCION, Paraguay - The victory of the "bishop of the poor" in Paraguay's presidential election expands a wave of leftist leadership across Latin America and further isolates the few remaining conservative governments.

Once Fernando Lugo is inaugurated on Aug. 15, the only right-leaning governments in Latin America will be Colombia, El Salvador and Mexico — and arguably Peru, where a left-leaning populist party has gradually edged to the right.

MSNBC More Leftists in Latin America

Latin America's leftward tilt began with the arrival of Venezuela's Hugo Chavez a decade ago, then continued with new presidents in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Ecuador, Guatemala and Nicaragua.

In other words, it is appropriate to talk about Venezuela when you are discussion a movement in Latin America toward left wing dictators. More review, this time from the Guardian:

Analysts in the foreign media and various financial institutions have referred to the dissimilar governments in the region as leftists without noting their nuances. They divide these governments into two groups: moderates and radicals. The first group includes Chile, Brazil and Uruguay, while the second counts Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador and Nicaragua in its files, with Argentina drifting between the two (the governments of Guatemala and Paraguay were both elected this year and are too new to analyse).

Leftist Latin America

I'll let Chavez indict himself:

Nobody will stop revolutionary volcano aroused in the people of America

Caracas, Jul 13 ABN.- “Nobody will stop this revolutionary volcano that aroused in our people; the putschists in Honduras have a few time left,” expressed on Sunday the president of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez Frias.

During the opening of his Sunday program Alo Presidente (Hello President), which took place at the Primary Socialist Production Unit Indio Rangel, in Aragua state, north-central region of Venezuela, Chavez expressed that “We have to take care of the civic-military union and of the conscience of our people.”

“To the Pentagon, the CIA, the bourgeoisie, the empire, I say you will not stop the revolution in our nations because that factor with which you collided with on April 2002 is now bigger: the civic-military union,” he affirmed.

Chavez expressed to be convinced that the crisis in Honduras will finish soon and that “Goriletti and his gorillas will be swept by history. I'm sure.”

“For that reason the path is Revolution and the target, independence.”

He also commented that the detention on Saturday to the reportorial equipment of the Venezuelan state owned television VTV and the continental network Telesur on behalf of the dictatorial regime in Honduras.

“That is the democracy that the Yankee empire wants to impose on the people of America. They have already arrested the father of the boy they killed; they imposed a curfew and now they arrest the journalists from VTV and Telesur. Is that the democracy you want here',” he said.

Bolivarian Voice

 

[editec]

I think you you've taken the wrong lesson from that. You've got a recent crop of tin horn dictators and wannabe dictators down there running Chavez' BS Bolavarian Republic or whatever he's calling it these days.

You ever notice that dictators like to liken themselves to past great people to sort of take on some of that heroism themselves? With Chavez it's Simon de Bolivar, with Hitler it was Fredrick the Great, with Obama it's Abraham Lincoln.... Ooops.....did I say that?

Back to the point, tin horn dictators don't like it when examples are made of other dictators in their neighborhood; it's bad for business. Dictatin' ain't easy you know. (It's hard bein' a pimp).

Tech, c'mon. I know you're better than that. Why do you have to follow the path of the intellectual midgets in thinking for some bizarre reason that the only government in this entire region is Venezuela's? Why is everyone saying that? I just can't comprehend. Here we are, I know that not everybody who is "for the coup" is a raving idiot, but surely, even the raving idiots can look at a map and realize that there are more than 20 countries here right? Why do Americans suddenly think appropriate to reduce 500,000,000 people into 3 countries [Cuba, Honduras, Venezuela]? Whatever Happened to Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Uruguay, and Paraguay? Why are people adamantly claiming that now EVERYBODY is run by Chavez or by "Leftists Dictators"? We tried so hard for so long to finally get elections, parliaments, democracies, and now that is all reduced to nothing, because those elected aren't to your liking. Everything is run by "leftists dictators," apparently. But hey, on the bright side, nobody's sending us death squads anymore.

With such a simple-minded view of this world, no thinking person can take these opinions seriously.

Were it true that you were correct an I'm only talking about Chavez and the Castro brothers, you might have a point. I'm not sure whether you're ignorant of the truth or whether you are assuming that I am so that you can try to get other people to believe in the misrepresentation you put forward.

So, let's take a look at Latin America. First stop is Venezuela. I've been watching Venezuela closely for about 5 years because I could see what was going to happen there. I have a friend of mine whose family is from El Salvador and has the expected view of the use of American power in Latin America and especially that use in Central America in the 1980s. We've gone back and forth about this for years. His common refrain is that "the farmers in the field don't care anything about the government. Communist, right-wing dictators, democracy, they don't care. They just want to be left alone. The US has no right going into those countries and stirring up trouble."

So, when Chavez popped his head up, I thought it was a prime opportunity to teach Juan an abject lesson in power politics and the formation of dictatorships in Latin America. So I started providing Juan periodic "Uncle Hugo" updates. When Hugo bought 40,000 AK-47s, I reported on it. When Hugo planted listening devices and wire taps on his political opponents and played the recordings on the public air, I reported it. When Hugo had his political opponents attacked by his minions, I reported it. When Hugo began extorting his neighbors to buy into the Bolivar Republic, I reported it. When he was giving them oil, bribing, cajoling, supporting socialist candidates for office....interfering in the political processes of those countries to advance his collectivist schemes.

I don't want this to be a wall of text, so I'll stop here. I'll pick up the other countries in a future post.

Would it help at all if I noted that my trust of the so called leftist governments is no greater than my trust of the so called rightist governments?

I don't give a rat's ass what they're calling themselves, or what economic system they claim to stand for, or if God is on their side, either.

To paraphrase Gertrude Stein:

A totalitarian is a totalitarian is a totalitarian.​

 

[Tech_Esq]

Tech, c'mon. I know you're better than that. Why do you have to follow the path of the intellectual midgets in thinking for some bizarre reason that the only government in this entire region is Venezuela's? Why is everyone saying that? I just can't comprehend. Here we are, I know that not everybody who is "for the coup" is a raving idiot, but surely, even the raving idiots can look at a map and realize that there are more than 20 countries here right? Why do Americans suddenly think appropriate to reduce 500,000,000 people into 3 countries [Cuba, Honduras, Venezuela]? Whatever Happened to Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Uruguay, and Paraguay? Why are people adamantly claiming that now EVERYBODY is run by Chavez or by "Leftists Dictators"? We tried so hard for so long to finally get elections, parliaments, democracies, and now that is all reduced to nothing, because those elected aren't to your liking. Everything is run by "leftists dictators," apparently. But hey, on the bright side, nobody's sending us death squads anymore.

With such a simple-minded view of this world, no thinking person can take these opinions seriously.

Were it true that you were correct an I'm only talking about Chavez and the Castro brothers, you might have a point. I'm not sure whether you're ignorant of the truth or whether you are assuming that I am so that you can try to get other people to believe in the misrepresentation you put forward.

So, let's take a look at Latin America. First stop is Venezuela. I've been watching Venezuela closely for about 5 years because I could see what was going to happen there. I have a friend of mine whose family is from El Salvador and has the expected view of the use of American power in Latin America and especially that use in Central America in the 1980s. We've gone back and forth about this for years. His common refrain is that "the farmers in the field don't care anything about the government. Communist, right-wing dictators, democracy, they don't care. They just want to be left alone. The US has no right going into those countries and stirring up trouble."

So, when Chavez popped his head up, I thought it was a prime opportunity to teach Juan an abject lesson in power politics and the formation of dictatorships in Latin America. So I started providing Juan periodic "Uncle Hugo" updates. When Hugo bought 40,000 AK-47s, I reported on it. When Hugo planted listening devices and wire taps on his political opponents and played the recordings on the public air, I reported it. When Hugo had his political opponents attacked by his minions, I reported it. When Hugo began extorting his neighbors to buy into the Bolivar Republic, I reported it. When he was giving them oil, bribing, cajoling, supporting socialist candidates for office....interfering in the political processes of those countries to advance his collectivist schemes.

I don't want this to be a wall of text, so I'll stop here. I'll pick up the other countries in a future post.

Would it help at all if I noted that my trust of the so called leftist governments is no greater than my trust of the so called rightist governments?

I don't give a rat's ass what they're calling themselves, or what economic system they claim to stand for, or if God is on their side, either.

To paraphrase Gertrude Stein:

A totalitarian is a totalitarian is a totalitarian.​

Of course! I agree with you completely.

I've told you about one of my Poli Sci prof's theories that right and left are not on a flat line continuum but on a clock face. Totalitarian is at 12 and Democracy is at 6. My point over and over is that if it isn't yet 3 o'clock where you are or it's after 9 o'clock, you are probably a miserable SOB and you don't much care who is oppressing you, you're just tired of being oppressed.

I don't so much care about Chavez' politics as his totalitarian tactics.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Were it true that you were correct an I'm only talking about Chavez and the Castro brothers, you might have a point. I'm not sure whether you're ignorant of the truth or whether you are assuming that I am so that you can try to get other people to believe in the misrepresentation you put forward.

I'm not trying to misrepresent what you said: What you basically are saying is that every single government in Latin America are a "crop of tin horn dictators." You are definitely making that implication, and you continue to make it, by claiming that Zelaya is only supported by "a crop of tin horn dictators", except that this "crop" includes every single government in the entire continent. THAT is a misrepresentation. Castro is a Dictator. Chavez has basically crossed the line into that by now, at least I could understand many believing it. But that's exactly the problem then: You're not talking about Castro and Chavez, you're talking about EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT in the CONTINENT. You are claiming that every single government in the continent is run by DICTATORS because, they disagree with you! I never called Bush a Dictator. I don't think that Felipe Calderon or Alvaro Uribe or even STEPHEN HARPER are dictators just because they're "right-wing." That's stupid. Basically, you reserve yourself the right to determine what is a dictator: If they disagree with you politically, they're dictators, everything else be damned. Just look at the "evidence" you posted. Fernando Lugo is a dictator because he's left-leaning. "More Leftists in Latin America" = "More Dictators in Latin America." Except that means nothing, because you are ALSO calling the Right-Leaning governments in this continent "tin horn dictators," because you just don't like them, they disagreed with you on this issue; hence they must be "tin horn dictators," because anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "tin horn dictator". Well, that's just an astounding show of intellectualism. If you disagree, call 'em a dictator.

You know who were dictators? Augusto Pinochet was a dictator. The Program of National Reorganization of Argentina were a dictatorship. The Brazilian Junta were dictators. Somoza was a dictator. The Juntas of Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Uruguay were Dictators. THOSE were dictatorships. How can you possibly compare ANY of those to EVEN Chavez, much less Fernando Lugo, Kirchner, Bachelet, or Oscar Arias? Can you post any evidence or any analysis on how EVERY leader in L.A. are dictators other than an article calling them "left leaning"? By that same token, then Spain and Portugal are living under brutal dictatorships, according to YOU. It's just, I'm sorry Tech, it's just sad.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Were it true that you were correct an I'm only talking about Chavez and the Castro brothers, you might have a point. I'm not sure whether you're ignorant of the truth or whether you are assuming that I am so that you can try to get other people to believe in the misrepresentation you put forward.

I'm not trying to misrepresent what you said: What you basically are saying is that every single government in Latin America are a "crop of tin horn dictators." You are definitely making that implication, and you continue to make it, by claiming that Zelaya is only supported by "a crop of tin horn dictators", except that this "crop" includes every single government in the entire continent. THAT is a misrepresentation. Castro is a Dictator. Chavez has basically crossed the line into that by now, at least I could understand many believing it. But that's exactly the problem then: You're not talking about Castro and Chavez, you're talking about EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT in the CONTINENT. You are claiming that every single government in the continent is run by DICTATORS because, they disagree with you! I never called Bush a Dictator. I don't think that Felipe Calderon or Alvaro Uribe or even STEPHEN HARPER are dictators just because they're "right-wing." That's stupid. Basically, you reserve yourself the right to determine what is a dictator: If they disagree with you politically, they're dictators, everything else be damned. Just look at the "evidence" you posted. Fernando Lugo is a dictator because he's left-leaning. "More Leftists in Latin America" = "More Dictators in Latin America." Except that means nothing, because you are ALSO calling the Right-Leaning governments in this continent "tin horn dictators," because you just don't like them, they disagreed with you on this issue; hence they must be "tin horn dictators," because anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "tin horn dictator". Well, that's just an astounding show of intellectualism. If you disagree, call 'em a dictator.

You know who were dictators? Augusto Pinochet was a dictator. The Program of National Reorganization of Argentina were a dictatorship. The Brazilian Junta were dictators. Somoza was a dictator. The Juntas of Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Uruguay were Dictators. THOSE were dictatorships. How can you possibly compare ANY of those to EVEN Chavez, much less Fernando Lugo, Kirchner, Bachelet, or Oscar Arias? Can you post any evidence or any analysis on how EVERY leader in L.A. are dictators other than an article calling them "left leaning"? By that same token, then Spain and Portugal are living under brutal dictatorships, according to YOU. It's just, I'm sorry Tech, it's just sad.

I guess I am guilty of taking it to it's logical conclusion before there is absolute evidence that they will reach it.

As at least one of the articles I links states, there is currently a spectrum of left leaners. Some are currently moderates. However, many of them are not. They are Marxists and thicker than thieves with Chavez. They are raising hell because their guy got kicked out. Now, I'm sure that a few of the countries are unhappy with the way the military threw the guy out of the country. OK, I'm not happy about that either. But the remedy is not returning him to power.

My worry with the current make up of Latin America is that Chavez is spending a lot of money one weapons. Nothing for the US to fear. But, plenty for the Columbians and anyone else that doesn't agree with the Bolivar Republic to worry about. Columbia is now virtually surrounded by Chavez' cohorts. He was having a pretty good time in Central America with Ortega and Zeyala until this too.

So, perhaps I overstated in some cases, but I don't think my analysis is wrong. This won't be good for Latin America any more than the right wing dictators were. Just as I said to Ed, if you are on the North side of the 9 -- 3 line, you just know you are being oppressed, it doesn't really matter to you what the politics of your oppressor is.