Why do leftists abhor the concept of a meritocracy?

[manifold]

It is far better to reward the very best, punish the very worst and treat majority the same.

At first blush that strikes me as rather pithy and downright reasonable, but I've never actually heard it put that way before.

That usually means I should think about it for a while.

 

[midcan5]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/gener...e-concept-of-a-meritocracy-4.html#post3782020

What no challenges? Hm, so let's see someone raised in an upper class family who has had tutors and has attended a top ranked college, and is a wasp on top if it all, interviews for a job at a prestigious firm and lands the job over a person of less means based on merit. Actually our wasp lands a job over all applicants on merit. Is this OK and/or is this something other than merit at work? Surely the hiring explanation would be merit, so anything wrong with this picture.

Assumptions on what the founders knew, or why they did something, are another example of words like meritocracy, they excuse rather than explain. Who knows what the founders thought and how wonderfully pure their motives were. There is one thing we do know, they formed this central government under a system of checks and balances because the states couldn't get along. Think of that for a moment, the states, these wonderful places of reason and sense, a 'word today' that stands for freedom and liberty, couldn't get along.

Meritocracy and other assorted 'key words' are smoke screens for privilege and the status quo. There never was equality, or even equality of opportunity, there never will be, the difference here is the more liberal person recognizes that, the conservative hides behind a veil of words and moralistic posturing. Anyone who doubts that consider America since the last presidential election.

So which particular The Man is keeping you down?

D -

You must know by now (?) you never address the issue, you hide behind that thin veil of slogan, not very meritorious. Next time study for the test.

 

[daveman]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/gener...e-concept-of-a-meritocracy-4.html#post3782020

What no challenges? Hm, so let's see someone raised in an upper class family who has had tutors and has attended a top ranked college, and is a wasp on top if it all, interviews for a job at a prestigious firm and lands the job over a person of less means based on merit. Actually our wasp lands a job over all applicants on merit. Is this OK and/or is this something other than merit at work? Surely the hiring explanation would be merit, so anything wrong with this picture.

Assumptions on what the founders knew, or why they did something, are another example of words like meritocracy, they excuse rather than explain. Who knows what the founders thought and how wonderfully pure their motives were. There is one thing we do know, they formed this central government under a system of checks and balances because the states couldn't get along. Think of that for a moment, the states, these wonderful places of reason and sense, a 'word today' that stands for freedom and liberty, couldn't get along.

Meritocracy and other assorted 'key words' are smoke screens for privilege and the status quo. There never was equality, or even equality of opportunity, there never will be, the difference here is the more liberal person recognizes that, the conservative hides behind a veil of words and moralistic posturing. Anyone who doubts that consider America since the last presidential election.

So which particular The Man is keeping you down?

D -

You must know by now (?) you never address the issue, you hide behind that thin veil of slogan, not very meritorious. Next time study for the test.

Wrong. The issue is meritocracy.

You claim: "There never was equality, or even equality of opportunity, there never will be..."

So someone's keeping you down. Who is it? Answer the question.

 

[Flopper]

Even COngress eliminated seniority as a factor. The only places that practice that are union shops. If someone is a shitbag he doesn't become less of a shitbag because he was able to last in the system more years than someone else.
Is meritocracy an ideal system? No. But it is better than anything else I've seen proposed. Including grievance culture.

Congress has eliminated the seniority factor? You go to be kidding. Labor unions are certainly not the only place where seniority is a major factor in determining advancement. Federal civil service, which covers nearly 2 million workers, rewards seniority as do most state and local governments. Private businesses that are more concerned about the long-term future of the business in lieu of short term profits reward loyalty and seniority.

Judgment of merit in most cases in purely subjective. Let 3 managers rate a group of employees and they will agree on the best and worst. What about the rest of the group? Ratings go all over the place with little correlation. Businesses that try to award all their employees based strictly on merit find themselves with high turnover and low employee moral. It is far better to reward the very best, punish the very worst and treat majority the same.

Democrats To Upend Seniority System In Senate: Brown
Federal workers are unionized. As are state gov't workers.
At least you admit that 3 managers will agree on the best employee.
Your post confirms mine, it does not refute it.

The key word in your article is “intend”. I will believe that when I see it.

Only 1 in 4 federal employees are union members. Only about 1 in 10 wage or salary workers in the US are members of any union and the percentage is falling for both public and private sector. In the private sector only 6% are union members. Unions are rapidly dying out in the US. Union membership today is half what it was in 1983. With the demise of unions, essentially all pay may be based on merit.


If the merit of an employee could be determined accurately, I would be all for using merit as the sole factor in determining wages, but the fact is you can't. It's pretty easy for any manager or even the employees to determine the best and worst. The very best should be rewarded and worst punished or fired.

But what about the other employees which make up most of the work force? Are better communications skills in one employee more important than technical ability in another? Is the employee that sold more last year more valuable that the employee who is doing a better job of customer retention? Management faced with these decisions just allocates the raises and bonus on a best guess basis. It doesn't make that much difference to the company as to how the money is distributed, but it makes a huge difference to the employees. The results are poor employee moral and higher turnover. It would be far better if management would just admit that using merit as a primary means is unfair to most of the employees. Using a system that rewards the very best, deals with the worst, and uses seniority as the determining factor for the rest is the best way to go.


Union Members Summary

 

[The Rabbi]

"Merit" is what managers decide it is. A salesman that can speak 10 languages isn't much use selling used cars in Idaho. A creative chef who can't show up on time isn't much good in a short order restaurant.

 

[manifold]

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. - MLK Jr.

Sounds like he dreamt of a meritocracy to me.

But what do I know?

 

[daveman]

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. - MLK Jr.

Sounds like he dreamt of a meritocracy to me.

But what do I know?

Sadly, Dr King's dream has been pushed aside in favor of identity politics and the collective.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Some might argue that leftism and a meritocracy are mutually exclusive ideals, but that is not really the case. There may be conflicting elements that need to be balanced, but by and large the two could definitely coexist. Yet for some reason leftists dismiss the meritocracy concept out of hand at best, and view it as an absolute evil at worst. And I just don't understand why.

Why do leftists abhor the concept of a meritocracy?

Actually........it's the right wing that doesn't like 'em. Remember them talking about people being "elitists"?

Besides.......here's the definition.........

World English Dictionary
meritocracy (ˌmɛrɪˈtɒkrəs&#618

— n , pl -cies
1. rule by persons chosen not because of birth or wealth, but for their superior talents or intellect
2. the persons constituting such a group
3. a social system formed on such a basis

Meritocracy | Define Meritocracy at Dictionary.com

Besides.........determining "merit" is highly subjective...........

mer·it   /ˈmɛrɪt/ Show Spelled
[mer-it] Show IPA

–noun
1. claim to respect and praise; excellence; worth.
2. something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation; a commendable quality, act, etc.: The book's only merit is its sincerity.
3. merits, the inherent rights and wrongs of a matter, as a lawsuit, unobscured by procedural details, technicalities, personal feelings, etc.: The case will be decided on its merits alone.

Merit | Define Merit at Dictionary.com

And.........according to Clammy Gurl, I have no "merit" because I'm a sponge on the government. However, there are many people who would like to be able to do what I'm doing right now in retirement.

 

[manifold]

Some might argue that leftism and a meritocracy are mutually exclusive ideals, but that is not really the case. There may be conflicting elements that need to be balanced, but by and large the two could definitely coexist. Yet for some reason leftists dismiss the meritocracy concept out of hand at best, and view it as an absolute evil at worst. And I just don't understand why.

Why do leftists abhor the concept of a meritocracy?

Actually........it's the right wing that doesn't like 'em. Remember them talking about people being "elitists"?

Besides.......here's the definition.........

World English Dictionary
meritocracy (ˌmɛrɪˈtɒkrəs&#618

— n , pl -cies
1. rule by persons chosen not because of birth or wealth, but for their superior talents or intellect
2. the persons constituting such a group
3. a social system formed on such a basis

Meritocracy | Define Meritocracy at Dictionary.com

Besides.........determining "merit" is highly subjective...........

mer·it   /ˈmɛrɪt/ Show Spelled
[mer-it] Show IPA

–noun
1. claim to respect and praise; excellence; worth.
2. something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation; a commendable quality, act, etc.: The book's only merit is its sincerity.
3. merits, the inherent rights and wrongs of a matter, as a lawsuit, unobscured by procedural details, technicalities, personal feelings, etc.: The case will be decided on its merits alone.

Merit | Define Merit at Dictionary.com

And.........according to Clammy Gurl, I have no "merit" because I'm a sponge on the government. However, there are many people who would like to be able to do what I'm doing right now in retirement.

Pointing out subjectivity is a red herring. Riva already tried and failed.

Do you ignore your subjective evaluations of merit when you cast your votes for public office?

If so, what purely objective basis have you stumbled upon? Please share, because you'd be the first.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Some might argue that leftism and a meritocracy are mutually exclusive ideals, but that is not really the case. There may be conflicting elements that need to be balanced, but by and large the two could definitely coexist. Yet for some reason leftists dismiss the meritocracy concept out of hand at best, and view it as an absolute evil at worst. And I just don't understand why.

Why do leftists abhor the concept of a meritocracy?

Actually........it's the right wing that doesn't like 'em. Remember them talking about people being "elitists"?

Besides.......here's the definition.........



Meritocracy | Define Meritocracy at Dictionary.com

Besides.........determining "merit" is highly subjective...........

mer·it   /ˈmɛrɪt/ Show Spelled
[mer-it] Show IPA

–noun
1. claim to respect and praise; excellence; worth.
2. something that deserves or justifies a reward or commendation; a commendable quality, act, etc.: The book's only merit is its sincerity.
3. merits, the inherent rights and wrongs of a matter, as a lawsuit, unobscured by procedural details, technicalities, personal feelings, etc.: The case will be decided on its merits alone.

Merit | Define Merit at Dictionary.com

And.........according to Clammy Gurl, I have no "merit" because I'm a sponge on the government. However, there are many people who would like to be able to do what I'm doing right now in retirement.

Pointing out subjectivity is a red herring. Riva already tried and failed.

Do you ignore your subjective evaluations of merit when you cast your votes for public office?

If so, what purely objective basis have you stumbled upon? Please share, because you'd be the first.

What is "meritorious" to Muslims, may not be to Christians. What is "meritorious" to Christians, may not be to those of other faiths. We all have different beliefs, and we all have a preferred way of doing things. Merit is highly subjective.

 

[Ravi]

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. - MLK Jr.

Sounds like he dreamt of a meritocracy to me.

But what do I know?

Yeah, their character, not their SAT scores.

 

[manifold]

Do you ignore your subjective evaluations of merit when you cast your votes for public office?

What is "meritorious" to Muslims, may not be to Christians. What is "meritorious" to Christians, may not be to those of other faiths. We all have different beliefs, and we all have a preferred way of doing things. Merit is highly subjective.

So it that a yes? I honestly can't tell.

 

[Ravi]

So you want to trade one meritocracy for another?

Therein lies the problem.

 

[Flopper]

"Merit" is what managers decide it is. A salesman that can speak 10 languages isn't much use selling used cars in Idaho. A creative chef who can't show up on time isn't much good in a short order restaurant.

And there lies the problem. Merit works well for rewarding the best and the worst. For the rest, it's just a guess. There is nothing that pisses off employees more than being treated unfairly and that is exactly what merit raises and bonuses do for average employee.

 

[rdean]

Isn't Texas BEAUTIFUL????

From the file name: fen-river-pollution.

The Fen River is in China. Even the most stupid of stupid people knows that China is not in Texas.

But apparently, dean is even stupider than that.

Some say Texas cities are the most beautiful. If you can see one.

A Google of the file name -- hk pollution -- turns up this blog entry:

For more local perspective on the TXU proposal controversy, we recommend Preston's Jetson Green blog post, from which we borrowed the symbolic photo (may not be Dallas)​

Judging from the file name, I'd say that's Hong Kong, not Dallas.

THIS is Dallas:

No similarity at all. Buildings are all wrong. Dean fucks up again.

Houston - the third year in a row - the "Fattest" city in the US. Texas has 5 in the top 15.

And now dean is claiming these are Texans, based only on his bigotry against conservatives.

Dean, why do you lie so much? Oh, wait, you really believe your claims are true simply because you say them, don't you?

This isn't the first time I've busted you passing off pictures of China as places in America.

You should be ashamed of yourself, but you lack the integrity.

Oh, and dean doesn't support a meritocracy, because he'd never be promoted.

Here's a few links for you. Enjoy the beauty of Texas!

Why Texas is so Great

Texas Pride: State ranks as 7th largest carbon emitter in the world! - RelentlesslyOptimistic

No. 2: Dallas, Texas, America's 8 Ugliest Cities

 

[daveman]

Isn't Texas BEAUTIFUL????

From the file name: fen-river-pollution.

The Fen River is in China. Even the most stupid of stupid people knows that China is not in Texas.

But apparently, dean is even stupider than that.

A Google of the file name -- hk pollution -- turns up this blog entry:

For more local perspective on the TXU proposal controversy, we recommend Preston's Jetson Green blog post, from which we borrowed the symbolic photo (may not be Dallas)​

Judging from the file name, I'd say that's Hong Kong, not Dallas.

THIS is Dallas:

No similarity at all. Buildings are all wrong. Dean fucks up again.

Houston - the third year in a row - the "Fattest" city in the US. Texas has 5 in the top 15.

And now dean is claiming these are Texans, based only on his bigotry against conservatives.

Dean, why do you lie so much? Oh, wait, you really believe your claims are true simply because you say them, don't you?

This isn't the first time I've busted you passing off pictures of China as places in America.

You should be ashamed of yourself, but you lack the integrity.

Oh, and dean doesn't support a meritocracy, because he'd never be promoted.

Here's a few links for you. Enjoy the beauty of Texas!

Why Texas is so Great

Texas Pride: State ranks as 7th largest carbon emitter in the world! - RelentlesslyOptimistic

No. 2: Dallas, Texas, America's 8 Ugliest Cities

Texas Coal Fired Utility Building 'Alamo of Coal'

So, no acknowledgement that you lied, despite my proof you did.

No honor. No integrity. No decency.

Yep -- that's rdean.

You're a liar, dean. You have zero credibility. Now, I suggest you send Mitt Romney an angry email demanding he be outraged about a Broadway musical.

You're dismissed.

 

[rdean]

From the file name: fen-river-pollution.

The Fen River is in China. Even the most stupid of stupid people knows that China is not in Texas.

But apparently, dean is even stupider than that.

A Google of the file name -- hk pollution -- turns up this blog entry:

For more local perspective on the TXU proposal controversy, we recommend Preston's Jetson Green blog post, from which we borrowed the symbolic photo (may not be Dallas)​

Judging from the file name, I'd say that's Hong Kong, not Dallas.

THIS is Dallas:

No similarity at all. Buildings are all wrong. Dean fucks up again.

And now dean is claiming these are Texans, based only on his bigotry against conservatives.

Dean, why do you lie so much? Oh, wait, you really believe your claims are true simply because you say them, don't you?

This isn't the first time I've busted you passing off pictures of China as places in America.

You should be ashamed of yourself, but you lack the integrity.

Oh, and dean doesn't support a meritocracy, because he'd never be promoted.

Here's a few links for you. Enjoy the beauty of Texas!

Why Texas is so Great

Texas Pride: State ranks as 7th largest carbon emitter in the world! - RelentlesslyOptimistic

No. 2: Dallas, Texas, America's 8 Ugliest Cities

Texas Coal Fired Utility Building 'Alamo of Coal'

So, no acknowledgement that you lied, despite my proof you did.

No honor. No integrity. No decency.

Yep -- that's rdean.

You're a liar, dean. You have zero credibility. Now, I suggest you send Mitt Romney an angry email demanding he be outraged about a Broadway musical.

You're dismissed.

Never claim that Dallas has no smog. This is from the 19th floor of a building in Los Colinas about 10 miles from downtown.

Dallas Smog | NowPublic Photo Archives

Smog over Dallas, photo courtesy of DallasNews.com

Star Telegraph: June 2010

ARLINGTON — TXU Power, a subsidiary of Dallas-based TXU Corp. said it will fund a project at UT Arlington’s Department of Industrial & Manufacturing Systems Engineering to research and design a technology management system for reducing nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions – a principal cause of smog.

TXU funds UT Arlington smog research | www.pegasusnews.com | Dallas/Fort Worth

Oh no, I have no integrity. Dallas is really, really CLEAN with "sweet smelling air". I was wrong. It looks like the land of OZ. Just follow the "Yellow Brink Road". How could I be so wrong. Wah, wah, boo hoo.

 

[daveman]

Never claim that Dallas has no smog.

I never did. You're lying again.

Oh no, I have no integrity.

Well, whatya know. You finally got something right.

Dallas is really, really CLEAN with "sweet smelling air". I was wrong. It looks like the land of OZ. Just follow the "Yellow Brink Road". How could I be so wrong. Wah, wah, boo hoo.

Nice strawman. It's smarter than you are.


Dean, if you have to lie to make your point, your point isn't worth making.

But then, if you didn't lie, you wouldn't be dean.

Oh, and Mormons! Booga booga!!

 

[FiscalSanity]

Flopper,

I get where you're coming from, but on the flipside, how is giving everyone the same pay raise fair to the person who does 25% more work or brings in 25% more orders? I worked on both sides of the union when i was with UPS, and as both an employee and a manager it pissed me off to see people that did as little as the could get away with being paid just as much as the best workers. There wasn't any incentive to work harder, because you're raise was determined by contract. On the other hand, there was a lot of incentive to ride the clock and stretch 8 hours worth of work into 10 hours so that you could rack up some overtime.

 

[rdean]

Never claim that Dallas has no smog.

I never did. You're lying again.

Oh no, I have no integrity.

Well, whatya know. You finally got something right.

Dallas is really, really CLEAN with "sweet smelling air". I was wrong. It looks like the land of OZ. Just follow the "Yellow Brink Road". How could I be so wrong. Wah, wah, boo hoo.

Nice strawman. It's smarter than you are.


Dean, if you have to lie to make your point, your point isn't worth making.

But then, if you didn't lie, you wouldn't be dean.

Oh, and Mormons! Booga booga!!

Lie about what?