Why did Arafat turn down 97% of the W Bank and all of Gaza in 2000?

[High_Gravity]

Hypothetical.

Lets say the UN decided to give America to China due to it's massive debt.

The Chinese army invaded and herded all American citizens to Ohio and built a wall around it.

And would shoot anyone trying to escape and bomb them whenever they wanted.

Questions:

How long would the American citizens resist after having their country stolen from them?

5 years? 50 years? 100 years? 200 years?

Knowing the American spirit; would we ever concede defeat, and just be happy with our situation?

Or would we; dig tunnels, smuggle arms, build home made rockets, sneak out and attack Chinese soldiers, and basically do anything to try to get our country back?












Do you think the American

Is that what happened though? the UN gave the land to Israel?

The UN gave no land to Israel.

I am completely lost now. I thought Israel was formed under a UN mandate? or was it an English one?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Is that what happened though? the UN gave the land to Israel?

The UN gave no land to Israel.

I am completely lost now. I thought Israel was formed under a UN mandate? or was it an English one?

Interesting. Where did you get that impression?

 

[Sunni Man]

I am completely lost now. I thought Israel was formed under a UN mandate? or was it an English one?

Regardless of how or why; the people living there were herded into the west Bank and Gaza.

And the rest of the land given to the jews and renamed Israel........

 

[GHook93]

I'd really like to know what posters think about this historic and bewildering event that took place. I still don't get it. It was all handed to him on a silver platter and he refused to form a Palestinian State.

The Myth of the Generous Offer

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Excellent post by Coyote.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6914869-post22.html

So President Clinton's a liar? The New York Times is lying?

In his own words. In the very liberal New York Times blaming Arafat for the failure.

IMPASSE AT CAMP DAVID: THE OVERVIEW; CLINTON ENDS DEADLOCKED PEACE TALKS
By JANE PERLEZ
Published: July 26, 2000

At the end of two weeks of marathon negotiations with the leaders of Israel and the Palestinians, a visibly fatigued President Clinton announced today that they were unable to reach an agreement ''at this time.''

The president and other American mediators made clear that it was Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader, who balked in the end, and by all accounts the issue was Jerusalem, the Holy City both Israelis and Palestinians claim as their sacred capital.

Speaking at the White House, Mr. Clinton singled out the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, for his readiness to make hard compromises.

''I would be making a mistake not to praise Barak, because I think he took a big risk,'' the president said. ''The prime minister moved forward more from his initial position than Chairman Arafat, particularly surrounding the question of Jerusalem.''

IMPASSE AT CAMP DAVID: THE OVERVIEW; CLINTON ENDS DEADLOCKED PEACE TALKS - New York Times

And the source was bullshit when Coyote posted it, but did you really expect and honest post from Tinhead. First, the guy is a mental midget. Second, the guy is as creditable Alamdouchebag saying there are no gays in Iran!

 

[martybegan]

I am completely lost now. I thought Israel was formed under a UN mandate? or was it an English one?

Regardless of how or why; the people living there were herded into the west Bank and Gaza.

And the rest of the land given to the jews and renamed Israel........

and the 1.5 million Israeli Arabs simply don't exist?

 

[MJB12741]

Good question. It's called Palestinian Mentality!

I'd really like to know what posters think about this historic and bewildering event that took place. I still don't get it. It was all handed to him on a silver platter and he refused to form a Palestinian State.

 

[irosie91]

Is that what happened though? the UN gave the land to Israel?

The UN gave no land to Israel.

I am completely lost now. I thought Israel was formed under a UN mandate? or was it an English one?

Be not confused-----and do not over eat just because Samer does-----
Israel was formed within the CALIPHATE -----the OTTOMAN TURKS
could not collect taxes from arab squatters in palestne
----so they decided to sell land
to jews----this took place in the early 1800s Jews were jumping for joy
because previously they could not buy land in palestine. Lots of
people donated money to the project and jews started migrating
TO PALESTINE from europe ---parts of asia and Africa etc
and developed a society there -----hoping to develope an
independent country. Some people call that the ZIONIST PROJECT---
it was one of many historically----sometimes jews did manage to get
to palestine-----but----it often did not work out because strictly speaking
----according to islamic law----all land is OWNED BY THE UMMAH---
that means all land is MUSLIM LAND

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Myth of the Generous Offer



Excellent post by Coyote.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6914869-post22.html

So President Clinton's a liar? The New York Times is lying?

In his own words. In the very liberal New York Times blaming Arafat for the failure.

IMPASSE AT CAMP DAVID: THE OVERVIEW; CLINTON ENDS DEADLOCKED PEACE TALKS
By JANE PERLEZ
Published: July 26, 2000

At the end of two weeks of marathon negotiations with the leaders of Israel and the Palestinians, a visibly fatigued President Clinton announced today that they were unable to reach an agreement ''at this time.''

The president and other American mediators made clear that it was Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader, who balked in the end, and by all accounts the issue was Jerusalem, the Holy City both Israelis and Palestinians claim as their sacred capital.

Speaking at the White House, Mr. Clinton singled out the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, for his readiness to make hard compromises.

''I would be making a mistake not to praise Barak, because I think he took a big risk,'' the president said. ''The prime minister moved forward more from his initial position than Chairman Arafat, particularly surrounding the question of Jerusalem.''

IMPASSE AT CAMP DAVID: THE OVERVIEW; CLINTON ENDS DEADLOCKED PEACE TALKS - New York Times

And the source was bullshit when Coyote posted it, but did you really expect and honest post from Tinhead. First, the guy is a mental midget. Second, the guy is as creditable Alamdouchebag saying there are no gays in Iran!

Perhaps you could post the text of the agreement so we can see what it actually said.

 

[Sunni Man]

I am completely lost now. I thought Israel was formed under a UN mandate? or was it an English one?

Regardless of how or why; the people living there were herded into the west Bank and Gaza.

And the rest of the land given to the jews and renamed Israel........

and the 1.5 million Israeli Arabs simply don't exist?

Where did you get this number from?

 

[martybegan]

Regardless of how or why; the people living there were herded into the west Bank and Gaza.

And the rest of the land given to the jews and renamed Israel........

and the 1.5 million Israeli Arabs simply don't exist?

Where did you get this number from?

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[High_Gravity]

The UN gave no land to Israel.

I am completely lost now. I thought Israel was formed under a UN mandate? or was it an English one?

Interesting. Where did you get that impression?

I read somewhere on here the mandate for Palestine expired in 1948 or something like that.

 

[irosie91]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sunni Man
Regardless of how or why;


how or why-----LETS IGNORE how or why jews escaped islamic oppression
when it was possible to do so and bought land in "palestine" which was
part of the OTTOMAN CALIPHATE ----well---HOW was they escaped----
left on foot, by boats ----and sometime later on a train from egypt to palestine---
after getting to egypt----

well if you must know---the OTTOMANS were willing to sell land to jews---
in the early 1800s----in spite of islamic POLICY that all land is MUSLIM LAND
and jews from christian europe---and whatever was in asia went too.

then the muslims started getting resentful and decided that jews
really should not OWN LAND ----so they started doing massacres
and claimed jews STOLE THE LAND that they had bought
from the Ottomans

 

[mudwhistle]

Arafart had the INTERESTS of his fellow beloved
palestinians at heart-----how could he deny them
the BENEFITS of being eternal refugees?

He was just looking out for the 100%ers in Palistine that are on welfare.

 

[proudveteran06]

I'd really like to know what posters think about this historic and bewildering event that took place. I still don't get it. It was all handed to him on a silver platter and he refused to form a Palestinian State.

The Myth of the Generous Offer

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Excellent post by Coyote.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6914869-post22.html

If Arafat was unhappy about the offer what " Counter - Offers" did he propose? The poster is not being honest; What he refuses to mention is that Arafat was demanding " Right of Return" which is not ever going to happen

 

[proudveteran06]

Arafat ( also Abbas ) is demanding a pathway inside Israel connecting the W. Bank and Gaza with the Palestinians having total control. Why are they entitled to ANY land inside Israel? What " offers" were made by Abbas or Arafat for a piece of Israel's land?

 

[irosie91]

Arafat ( also Abbas ) is demanding a pathway inside Israel connecting the W. Bank and Gaza with the Palestinians having total control. Why are they entitled to ANY land inside Israel? What " offers" were made by Abbas or Arafat for a piece of Israel's land?

that is the BUGABOO (spelling?) that makes my idea of gaza plus
a chunk of the SINAI more workable Historically ---that is very good land..
Gaza was ---in ancient times a self sustaining city----with lots of
agriculture ---it has POTENTIAL ---and when jews did YAMIT---
in sinai---it was very profitable and they can get lots of Mediterranean.

Time to be creative -----egypt should make the concession----it is
egypt that DID THE 1967 war-----it was actually EGYPT that kept
gaza down for 20 years and then made gaza and OCCUPIED land--
not that it was any better off when Egypt controlled things

 

[Coyote]

Arafat ( also Abbas ) is demanding a pathway inside Israel connecting the W. Bank and Gaza with the Palestinians having total control. Why are they entitled to ANY land inside Israel? What " offers" were made by Abbas or Arafat for a piece of Israel's land?

What right does Israel have to demand Israeli-controlled roads through Palestinian lands?
The issue is the same in both cases - how are you going to create access between different parts of split up territories that are supposed to make one nation.

No easy solution that.

 

[Coyote]

Arafat ( also Abbas ) is demanding a pathway inside Israel connecting the W. Bank and Gaza with the Palestinians having total control. Why are they entitled to ANY land inside Israel? What " offers" were made by Abbas or Arafat for a piece of Israel's land?

that is the BUGABOO (spelling?) that makes my idea of gaza plus
a chunk of the SINAI more workable Historically ---that is very good land..
Gaza was ---in ancient times a self sustaining city----with lots of
agriculture ---it has POTENTIAL ---and when jews did YAMIT---
in sinai---it was very profitable and they can get lots of Mediterranean.

Time to be creative -----egypt should make the concession----it is
egypt that DID THE 1967 war-----it was actually EGYPT that kept
gaza down for 20 years and then made gaza and OCCUPIED land--
not that it was any better off when Egypt controlled things

Palestinians in the West Bank are culturally different than Palestinians in Gaza. Maybe the West Bank ought to be absorbed into Israel, with all inhabitents becoming Israeli citizens and Gaza and a chunk of the Sinai become a Palestinian state. It's a thought....

 

[Coyote]

Good question. It's called Palestinian Mentality!

I'd really like to know what posters think about this historic and bewildering event that took place. I still don't get it. It was all handed to him on a silver platter and he refused to form a Palestinian State.

Because the silver platter was, in reality, a paper plate.

 

[irosie91]

Arafat ( also Abbas ) is demanding a pathway inside Israel connecting the W. Bank and Gaza with the Palestinians having total control. Why are they entitled to ANY land inside Israel? What " offers" were made by Abbas or Arafat for a piece of Israel's land?

that is the BUGABOO (spelling?) that makes my idea of gaza plus
a chunk of the SINAI more workable Historically ---that is very good land..
Gaza was ---in ancient times a self sustaining city----with lots of
agriculture ---it has POTENTIAL ---and when jews did YAMIT---
in sinai---it was very profitable and they can get lots of Mediterranean.

Time to be creative -----egypt should make the concession----it is
egypt that DID THE 1967 war-----it was actually EGYPT that kept
gaza down for 20 years and then made gaza and OCCUPIED land--
not that it was any better off when Egypt controlled things

Palestinians in the West Bank are culturally different than Palestinians in Gaza. Maybe the West Bank ought to be absorbed into Israel, with all inhabitents becoming Israeli citizens and Gaza and a chunk of the Sinai become a Palestinian state. It's a thought....

not a good thought----Israelis and the people of the west bank are a lot more DIFFERENT
-----from each other than are west bank arabs and gazans. Israel cannot accomodate
even the arabs who are already Israeli citizens----too much tension- It is like muslims
in India