Why Can't The So-Called Pro-Life Crowd Be Honest?

[Dr.Drock]

So I guess a newborn is "non-viable"?

It should be able to walk and feed itself right?

You libs are baby killers.... just sayin'

For pro-lifers and pro-choicers the principle view is the same, it's just the timing and situations where people think abortions should be legal that are different.

Very few pro-lifers are against allowing a 14 year old child to abort a pregnancy caused by her father. Very few pro-lifers are against the morning after pill. Very few pro-choicers are for partial birth abortion, late term abortion with a healthy fetus/mother.

So we all like to pretend our stance on the view is a moral highground, but neither is. It's just a different view of how far a particular liberty should go.

I will always take the ground that does'nt allow for the MURDER of innocent babies.

So you're anti-war in all circumstances?

 

[Bern80]

There was a thread on this with a case where the death of the baby was certain but a law said the woman couldn't have an abortion. So the baby was born and for 15 minutes died a slow painful death in the mother's arms. I didn't see one pro-lifer on the thread take issue with that.

So it proved to me, at least with the people on this board, that it isn't about the well-being of the baby or mother. It's solely about forcing one's religious views on another.

It's solely about religious beliefs for pro-lifers? You are generally not prone to sweeping black and white generalizations Drock.

 

[Immanuel]

There was a thread on this with a case where the death of the baby was certain but a law said the woman couldn't have an abortion. So the baby was born and for 15 minutes died a slow painful death in the mother's arms. I didn't see one pro-lifer on the thread take issue with that.

So it proved to me, at least with the people on this board, that it isn't about the well-being of the baby or mother. It's solely about forcing one's religious views on another.

You would be wrong in your generalization that not one pro-lifer took objection to the issue. My first thought was that the whole thing was simply an attempt to skirt the law and that she had actually had an abortion by inducing labor knowing full well the baby would not survive. Upon reading up on the case, I discovered differently.

The OP in that thread was not about abortion it was about the plight of parents that knew their child was not going to survive. A horrible plight indeed.

If you want to extend the meaning of murder to the abortion of a non-viable fetus, shouldn't we then refer to the purging of freezer space at a in vitro fertilization clinic as mass murder?

One silly rationalization deserves another.

So I guess a newborn is "non-viable"?

It should be able to walk and feed itself right?

You libs are baby killers.... just sayin'

For pro-lifers and pro-choicers the principle view is the same, it's just the timing and situations where people think abortions should be legal that are different.

Very few pro-lifers are against allowing a 14 year old child to abort a pregnancy caused by her father. Very few pro-lifers are against the morning after pill. Very few pro-choicers are for partial birth abortion, late term abortion with a healthy fetus/mother.

So we all like to pretend our stance on the view is a moral highground, but neither is. It's just a different view of how far a particular liberty should go.

If by principle view you mean that most of us, pro-choice and pro-life, prefer the life of the fetus over its death, I would completely agree. Just because someone supports the "choice" does not mean that they support abortion. What they are really saying is that the government does not have any business making that choice.

Now, in reply to the OP.

I know of no pro-lifers that believe that there should be no laws at all. I know of no pro-lifers that or even people that are conservative that want the government AND its laws to dissolve. Taking DaGoose's statements to their ultimate end would mean the complete dissolving of the government.

It is completely unrealistic to ask us pro-lifers to state the obvious in every post. Should we add a disclaimer to our posts, maybe in the signature line: PS I support limited government not "no government"?

 

[Dr.Drock]

There was a thread on this with a case where the death of the baby was certain but a law said the woman couldn't have an abortion. So the baby was born and for 15 minutes died a slow painful death in the mother's arms. I didn't see one pro-lifer on the thread take issue with that.

So it proved to me, at least with the people on this board, that it isn't about the well-being of the baby or mother. It's solely about forcing one's religious views on another.

No proof the child was in pain, all birth is traumatic to the child. Thats an assumption used to cushion a choice to kill. That the mothers pain would have been less if the child was killed 10 days earlier than the birth is emotional poppycock.

Yeah I guess the newborn didn't explicitly say "this hurts." I guess just every breath being a struggle until eventual death while awake is a pretty good sign of pain.

I guess if I were a parent, and I watched my baby be born then slowly die in my arms I'd be pretty traumatized, call me crazy.

I think we should also get rid of all hospice centers, those are immoral. If death is certain it's best that we let the cancer patients deal with the pain god intended them to feel rather than make the best of an awful situation.

 

[R.D.]

For pro-lifers and pro-choicers the principle view is the same, it's just the timing and situations where people think abortions should be legal that are different.

Very few pro-lifers are against allowing a 14 year old child to abort a pregnancy caused by her father. Very few pro-lifers are against the morning after pill. Very few pro-choicers are for partial birth abortion, late term abortion with a healthy fetus/mother.

So we all like to pretend our stance on the view is a moral highground, but neither is. It's just a different view of how far a particular liberty should go.

I will always take the ground that does'nt allow for the MURDER of innocent babies.

So you're anti-war in all circumstances?

So we agree that it’s wrong to kill those considerd “unwanted.” Thats pro life

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Because if they were they would admit that they are in favor of government control over American citizens private decisions. THEY are the real enemies of liberty and freedom.

You are correct in saying that they favor government control, but to say they are the "real" enemies of liberty and freedom, clearly inferring that the opposition is not, is fatally flawed. Neither conservatives nor so called liberals are big proponents of personal freedom and liberty.

 

[xsited1]

Because if they were they would admit that they are in favor of government control over American citizens private decisions. THEY are the real enemies of liberty and freedom.

Because unless you are the woman, her doctor or her God you need to stay the fuck out of her business.

.

I'm in favor of abortions for the undesirables. We certainly wouldn't want to abort a future Nobel Prize-winning Physicist.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I will always take the ground that does'nt allow for the MURDER of innocent babies.

So you're anti-war in all circumstances?

So we agree that it’s wrong to kill those considerd “unwanted.” Thats pro life

Yes, I agree killing all innocent babies/children/adults is immoral and disgusting. Which is why I'm anti-war and anti-late term abortion.

I don't think a 1st trimester fetus is a baby though. I view it as a fetus. Society mostly agrees with me, if a 6 month old baby were born and tragically died in a car wreck there'd be a big funeral with family and friends. If a woman has a miscarriage a month in to her pregnancy that doesn't happen (giving a link to show this has happened once won't prove it's the norm either).

 

[Immanuel]

There was a thread on this with a case where the death of the baby was certain but a law said the woman couldn't have an abortion. So the baby was born and for 15 minutes died a slow painful death in the mother's arms. I didn't see one pro-lifer on the thread take issue with that.

So it proved to me, at least with the people on this board, that it isn't about the well-being of the baby or mother. It's solely about forcing one's religious views on another.

No proof the child was in pain, all birth is traumatic to the child. Thats an assumption used to cushion a choice to kill. That the mothers pain would have been less if the child was killed 10 days earlier than the birth is emotional poppycock.

Yeah I guess the newborn didn't explicitly say "this hurts." I guess just every breath being a struggle until eventual death while awake is a pretty good sign of pain.

I guess if I were a parent, and I watched my baby be born then slowly die in my arms I'd be pretty traumatized, call me crazy.

I think we should also get rid of all hospice centers, those are immoral. If death is certain it's best that we let the cancer patients deal with the pain god intended them to feel rather than make the best of an awful situation.

Call me crazy, but I hope that eventually the parents will be able to relish the 15 minutes they got to spend with their baby girl. The pain will never, ever go away, but I hope that they will cherish those 15 minutes of life for the rest of their lives.

My wife's first pregnancy ended in a mis-carriage three days after we got confirmation that she was pregnant. It was heartbreaking. But, I still think of that child as our child and since the Word of God is true, I fully expect to meet that child someday in the future.

Immie

 

[Nosmo King]

If you want to extend the meaning of murder to the abortion of a non-viable fetus, shouldn't we then refer to the purging of freezer space at a in vitro fertilization clinic as mass murder?

One silly rationalization deserves another.

So I guess a newborn is "non-viable"?

It should be able to walk and feed itself right?

You libs are baby killers.... just sayin'

Maybe if you had paid attention is school, this response wouldn't be necessary. Scientific terminology, zipperhead. Put down the monster truck transformers and pick up a textbook. just sayin'

 

[R.D.]

There was a thread on this with a case where the death of the baby was certain but a law said the woman couldn't have an abortion. So the baby was born and for 15 minutes died a slow painful death in the mother's arms. I didn't see one pro-lifer on the thread take issue with that.

So it proved to me, at least with the people on this board, that it isn't about the well-being of the baby or mother. It's solely about forcing one's religious views on another.

No proof the child was in pain, all birth is traumatic to the child. Thats an assumption used to cushion a choice to kill. That the mothers pain would have been less if the child was killed 10 days earlier than the birth is emotional poppycock.

Yeah I guess the newborn didn't explicitly say "this hurts." I guess just every breath being a struggle until eventual death while awake is a pretty good sign of pain.

I guess if I were a parent, and I watched my baby be born then slowly die in my arms I'd be pretty traumatized, call me crazy.

I think we should also get rid of all hospice centers, those are immoral. If death is certain it's best that we let the cancer patients deal with the pain god intended them to feel rather than make the best of an awful situation.

More emotional poppycock.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

So it proved to me, at least with the people on this board, that it isn't about the well-being of the baby or mother. It's solely about forcing one's religious views on another.

I am personally pro-life and it has absolutely nothing to do with religious beliefs. A fetus is a living human being, plain and simple. Because it hasn't been born yet doesn't make it any less so. That's science.

That said, I also don't support making abortion illegal. It's a private matter and the government should not be involved.

 

[Dr.Drock]

No proof the child was in pain, all birth is traumatic to the child. Thats an assumption used to cushion a choice to kill. That the mothers pain would have been less if the child was killed 10 days earlier than the birth is emotional poppycock.

Yeah I guess the newborn didn't explicitly say "this hurts." I guess just every breath being a struggle until eventual death while awake is a pretty good sign of pain.

I guess if I were a parent, and I watched my baby be born then slowly die in my arms I'd be pretty traumatized, call me crazy.

I think we should also get rid of all hospice centers, those are immoral. If death is certain it's best that we let the cancer patients deal with the pain god intended them to feel rather than make the best of an awful situation.

Call me crazy, but I hope that eventually the parents will be able to relish the 15 minutes they got to spend with their baby girl. The pain will never, ever go away, but I hope that they will cherish those 15 minutes of life for the rest of their lives.

My wife's first pregnancy ended in a mis-carriage three days after we got confirmation that she was pregnant. It was heartbreaking. But, I still think of that child as our child and since the Word of God is true, I fully expect to meet that child someday in the future.

Immie

Cherish your baby dying a slow death? That seems awfully selfish to me. I'd rather not put my baby through that.

That's why I made the connection to the hospice centers. If given a choice, I'd rather not put the person through horrifying pain when it's a certainty along with death.

 

[Dr.Drock]

No proof the child was in pain, all birth is traumatic to the child. Thats an assumption used to cushion a choice to kill. That the mothers pain would have been less if the child was killed 10 days earlier than the birth is emotional poppycock.

Yeah I guess the newborn didn't explicitly say "this hurts." I guess just every breath being a struggle until eventual death while awake is a pretty good sign of pain.

I guess if I were a parent, and I watched my baby be born then slowly die in my arms I'd be pretty traumatized, call me crazy.

I think we should also get rid of all hospice centers, those are immoral. If death is certain it's best that we let the cancer patients deal with the pain god intended them to feel rather than make the best of an awful situation.

More emotional poppycock.

Humor me and tell me how any of what I typed is wrong.

 

[Immanuel]

So it proved to me, at least with the people on this board, that it isn't about the well-being of the baby or mother. It's solely about forcing one's religious views on another.

I am personally pro-life and it has absolutely nothing to do with religious beliefs. A fetus is a living human being, plain and simple. Because it hasn't been born yet doesn't make it any less so. That's science.

That said, I also don't support making abortion illegal. It's a private matter and the government should not be involved.

I am pro-life and much (but not all) of my reasoning is religious in nature. A human fetus is a living human being and is distinguished from the fetus of any other mammal by the designation human as compared to canine or feline. The biological stage of being a fetus is not specific to humans.

That said, I also do not support making abortion illegal. As a pro-lifer my hope is to reduce the number of abortions and someday to end all abortions. Making the procedure illegal will not accomplish any of that. If making it illegal won't prevent one abortion, then what good is the legislation? Reducing abortions can only IMHO be accomplished by making abortion a less desirable choice (through education, culture, society, costs to obtain one etc. etc. etc) than having the child itself.

Immie

 

[3DG4life]

Because if they were they would admit that they are in favor of government control over American citizens private decisions. THEY are the real enemies of liberty and freedom.

Because unless you are the woman, her doctor or her God you need to stay the fuck out of her business.

.

Fetusus are the only "people" they care about protecting. Once your out of the womb, you're on your own, buster.

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They ramble on about big government.. I can't really think of anything bigger than the government regulating what a woman can do with her womb.

Bunch of hypocrites.

 

[RDD_1210]

Because if they were they would admit that they are in favor of government control over American citizens private decisions. THEY are the real enemies of liberty and freedom.

Because unless you are the woman, her doctor or her God you need to stay the fuck out of her business.

.

It's just more double standards and hypocrisy from the extreme right. Does this really surprise anyone?

 

[Immanuel]

Yeah I guess the newborn didn't explicitly say "this hurts." I guess just every breath being a struggle until eventual death while awake is a pretty good sign of pain.

I guess if I were a parent, and I watched my baby be born then slowly die in my arms I'd be pretty traumatized, call me crazy.

I think we should also get rid of all hospice centers, those are immoral. If death is certain it's best that we let the cancer patients deal with the pain god intended them to feel rather than make the best of an awful situation.

Call me crazy, but I hope that eventually the parents will be able to relish the 15 minutes they got to spend with their baby girl. The pain will never, ever go away, but I hope that they will cherish those 15 minutes of life for the rest of their lives.

My wife's first pregnancy ended in a mis-carriage three days after we got confirmation that she was pregnant. It was heartbreaking. But, I still think of that child as our child and since the Word of God is true, I fully expect to meet that child someday in the future.

Immie

Cherish your baby dying a slow death? That seems awfully selfish to me. I'd rather not put my baby through that.

That's why I made the connection to the hospice centers. If given a choice, I'd rather not put the person through horrifying pain when it's a certainty along with death.

I may have missed your change.

My dad died in a hospice center. Trust me, he did not seem to be in pain, yet my father in law died in a hospital and he was clearly in a lot of pain. My dad had cancer spread throughout his body. My father in law had stomach cancer. I'm not sure if that is a difference or not.

I did not say that they should cherish its death, but rather the few minutes that they were given to spend with it. As I said, they will always suffer the pain, but in this case, they did have the privilege of spending at least a few minutes with their child.

BTW: I now volunteer for the same hospice center my dad died in although I visit patients outside the home rather than spend time in the hospice house. Nursing homes give me the creeps and I typically avoid them.

Immie

 

[Dr.Drock]

Call me crazy, but I hope that eventually the parents will be able to relish the 15 minutes they got to spend with their baby girl. The pain will never, ever go away, but I hope that they will cherish those 15 minutes of life for the rest of their lives.

My wife's first pregnancy ended in a mis-carriage three days after we got confirmation that she was pregnant. It was heartbreaking. But, I still think of that child as our child and since the Word of God is true, I fully expect to meet that child someday in the future.

Immie

Cherish your baby dying a slow death? That seems awfully selfish to me. I'd rather not put my baby through that.

That's why I made the connection to the hospice centers. If given a choice, I'd rather not put the person through horrifying pain when it's a certainty along with death.

I may have missed your change.

My dad died in a hospice center. Trust me, he did not seem to be in pain, yet my father in law died in a hospital and he was clearly in a lot of pain. My dad had cancer spread throughout his body. My father in law had stomach cancer. I'm not sure if that is a difference or not.

I did not say that they should cherish its death, but rather the few minutes that they were given to spend with it. As I said, they will always suffer the pain, but in this case, they did have the privilege of spending at least a few minutes with their child.

BTW: I now volunteer for the same hospice center my dad died in although I visit patients outside the home rather than spend time in the hospice house. Nursing homes give me the creeps and I typically avoid them.

Immie

That's great (honestly) and I'm really glad you're doing that. I went through the same thing with my grandpa. My father and I essentially moved in with him the last 6 months of his life to do our version of hospice care. Luckily my dad does that stuff for a living at a hospital so it made it so we at least knew what we were doing.

But the situation was different in a sense that my grandpa could say something hurts and we'd give him morphine. This couldn't happen with the baby and it was certain by the doctors analysis that death was going to come to the baby and essentially be right after birth.

Personally if I had a preference I'd rather not spend the 15 minutes with my child while it seems like it would be in horrible pain and suffering. Not because I wouldn't want to be with my child for 15 minutes, but I would choose to not put the baby through the pain.

I think others should have that choice when death is certain, that's all I'm saying.

 

[R.D.]

So you're anti-war in all circumstances?

So we agree that it’s wrong to kill those considerd “unwanted.” Thats pro life

Yes, I agree killing all innocent babies/children/adults is immoral and disgusting. Which is why I'm anti-war and anti-late term abortion.

I don't think a 1st trimester fetus is a baby though. I view it as a fetus. Society mostly agrees with me, if a 6 month old baby were born and tragically died in a car wreck there'd be a big funeral with family and friends. If a woman has a miscarriage a month in to her pregnancy that doesn't happen (giving a link to show this has happened once won't prove it's the norm either).

If it isn't a human baby then it isn't a pregnancy.

I don't rely on others to make me feel good about killing off the innocent.