Why Can't Everyone Pay the Same Tax Rate?

[Care4all]

the per person standard deduction and personal exemption, is so that each individual is NOT taxed on what it takes to feed themselves and keep themselves and family alive, what is more than this determined amount, is considered ''taxable'' income, or profit....so to say.

ANY tax system that taxes one's own work income that is needed for basic survival, would be immoral and inhumane.

i suppose a flat tax would be fine, but only with a standard deduction for every individual, similar to how it works now, only more in line with reality's cost of living.

same with the fair tax or national sales tax, some sort of credit should be given for the cost of basic needs.

otherwise, it would be pure evil imho.

this will still mean that some individuals....the maid, the janitor, the lawn guy, the car wash guy, the waitress, the dept store sales person, may STILL not pay any federal tax. (other than gas tax, social security tax, cigarette tax, and medicare tax, unless of course all of these individual taxes are incorporated in to the flat tax or sales tax?)

And shouldn't social security taxes be set up so that EVERYONE is taxed the same as well?

 

[Toro]

Anyone got a valid reason for this?

Because there is a fair amount of randomness and luck in life, and those who are better off are usually the beneficiaries of this randomness and luck.

As Nassim Nicholas Taleb wrote, "Work hard and you can own a BMW. Work and hard and have luck and you can own a Gulfstream."

BTW, that doesn't mean I'm against a flat tax. A flat tax with an exemption for the first amount of income is a progressive tax. For example, exempting the first, say, $40,000 on income then taxing all income thereafter at some rate, say 30%, is a progressive application of a flat tax.

So because some people are lucky we should let the first $40,00 go un-taxed? Is that what you are saying?

Partly. What I am saying is that some people are unlucky, and should not be taxed because of it.

The other reason is because someone making $10,000 needs each and every penny to survive far more than someone making $100,000.

 

[DiamondDave]

The top 5% paid over 60% of income taxes. There is no way on earth that they are using 60% of what Government redistributes.

Show me a link of what income the top 5% earned. I've already shown that the top 1o% hold more than 80% of our national wealth. Yeah, there's redistribution, and it's from the middle class to the top. I know how much the right wing likes to crap on poor people, but that's just bullshit when you look at the numbers.

accumulated wealth is not income, you ignorant fucking troll... not to mention that all wealth or earnings is not the property of the state, nor a communal pot that you have a right to because you want it and your jealousy

Yes Dick Suck.... no matter how much you bitch in a 10 point neg rep comment... accumulated wealth is not the same as income

 

[Dick Tuck]

Show me a link of what income the top 5% earned. I've already shown that the top 1o% hold more than 80% of our national wealth. Yeah, there's redistribution, and it's from the middle class to the top. I know how much the right wing likes to crap on poor people, but that's just bullshit when you look at the numbers.

accumulated wealth is not income, you ignorant fucking troll... not to mention that all wealth or earnings is not the property of the state, nor a communal pot that you have a right to because you want it and your jealousy

Yes Dick Suck.... no matter how much you bitch in a 10 point neg rep comment... accumulated wealth is not the same as income

Damn, you're stone stupid. Accumulated wealth, when liquidated, it's taxed at half rate. That's one of the reasons I'm disgusted with right wing crap about the alleged death tax. If you convert your wealth to income, you get taxed at about half the tax rate. If it's convert at your death, you idiots want it to be a freebie for those whose estates are well over 2 million.

You see, you want it both ways. You don't want to pay taxes, and you want to bitch about government death. You're nothing more than a welfare whore, who doesn't love this country enough to keep it fiscally strong.

Now come on back with your personal attacks. BTW, you were the one who decided you wanted a rep war. That must mean you actually care about those little cyber medals.

 

[SuMar]

Anyone got a valid reason for this?

I have been for flat tax all along.

 

[The T]

Q: Why Can't Everyone Pay the Same Tax Rate?

A: Control, Wealth Envy and Poverty pimps in the form of politicians.

 

[DiamondDave]

accumulated wealth is not income, you ignorant fucking troll... not to mention that all wealth or earnings is not the property of the state, nor a communal pot that you have a right to because you want it and your jealousy

Yes Dick Suck.... no matter how much you bitch in a 10 point neg rep comment... accumulated wealth is not the same as income

Damn, you're stone stupid. Accumulated wealth, when liquidated, it's taxed at half rate. That's one of the reasons I'm disgusted with right wing crap about the alleged death tax. If you convert your wealth to income, you get taxed at about half the tax rate. If it's convert at your death, you idiots want it to be a freebie for those whose estates are well over 2 million.

You see, you want it both ways. You don't want to pay taxes, and you want to bitch about government death. You're nothing more than a welfare whore, who doesn't love this country enough to keep it fiscally strong.

Now come on back with your personal attacks. BTW, you were the one who decided you wanted a rep war. That must mean you actually care about those little cyber medals.

Damn... you are more stupid than you claim others to be.... hey are not the same thing... and now you have shown to be in support of double taxation, as if the money belonged to the government or society instead of the person earning it...

I support no death tax for anyone... rich, poor, DEM, REP, fat, this, male, female, or whatever else....

You, who support even more ways of taxation in a wealth redistribution scheme at the hands of a bloated government, shows yourself to be the welfare whore you proclaim others to be... you ignorant pole smoker

 

[Dick Tuck]

Yes Dick Suck.... no matter how much you bitch in a 10 point neg rep comment... accumulated wealth is not the same as income

Damn, you're stone stupid. Accumulated wealth, when liquidated, it's taxed at half rate. That's one of the reasons I'm disgusted with right wing crap about the alleged death tax. If you convert your wealth to income, you get taxed at about half the tax rate. If it's convert at your death, you idiots want it to be a freebie for those whose estates are well over 2 million.

You see, you want it both ways. You don't want to pay taxes, and you want to bitch about government death. You're nothing more than a welfare whore, who doesn't love this country enough to keep it fiscally strong.

Now come on back with your personal attacks. BTW, you were the one who decided you wanted a rep war. That must mean you actually care about those little cyber medals.

Damn... you are more stupid than you claim others to be.... hey are not the same thing... and now you have shown to be in support of double taxation, as if the money belonged to the government or society instead of the person earning it...

I support no death tax for anyone... rich, poor, DEM, REP, fat, this, male, female, or whatever else....

You, who support even more ways of taxation in a wealth redistribution scheme at the hands of a bloated government, shows yourself to be the welfare whore you proclaim others to be... you ignorant pole smoker

You just don't want people to pay their fair share, and don't give a damn if you bankrupt our country. You're nothing more than a middleclass welfare queen, who doesn't care about how you weaken our nation.

 

[QUENTIN]

In part, it's because asking someone with $1,000,000 for $100,000 is quite different than asking someone with $100 for $10 in terms of impact, burden, and yes, fairness.

Also because a flat tax doesn't work well in a capitalist society that inherently creates significantly different economic classes who then have very different requirements for how much of their capital they need to maintain to cover true necessities, as genuine capitalists recognize.

"It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

-- Adam Smith, Father of Capitalism, in The Wealth of Nations, Foundation of Capitalist Economic Theory

 

[DiamondDave]

Damn, you're stone stupid. Accumulated wealth, when liquidated, it's taxed at half rate. That's one of the reasons I'm disgusted with right wing crap about the alleged death tax. If you convert your wealth to income, you get taxed at about half the tax rate. If it's convert at your death, you idiots want it to be a freebie for those whose estates are well over 2 million.

You see, you want it both ways. You don't want to pay taxes, and you want to bitch about government death. You're nothing more than a welfare whore, who doesn't love this country enough to keep it fiscally strong.

Now come on back with your personal attacks. BTW, you were the one who decided you wanted a rep war. That must mean you actually care about those little cyber medals.

Damn... you are more stupid than you claim others to be.... hey are not the same thing... and now you have shown to be in support of double taxation, as if the money belonged to the government or society instead of the person earning it...

I support no death tax for anyone... rich, poor, DEM, REP, fat, this, male, female, or whatever else....

You, who support even more ways of taxation in a wealth redistribution scheme at the hands of a bloated government, shows yourself to be the welfare whore you proclaim others to be... you ignorant pole smoker

You just don't want people to pay their fair share, and don't give a damn if you bankrupt our country. You're nothing more than a middleclass welfare queen, who doesn't care about how you weaken our nation.

No... what I want is EXACTLY the fair share, you twit

What YOU want is selective equal treatment... equal treatment when it suits you, UNEQUAL treatment for others when it suits you

I will stick with the support of equal treatment for every citizen by government, in ALL aspects, whether it is to my personal benefit or not

 

[QUENTIN]

Damn... you are more stupid than you claim others to be.... hey are not the same thing... and now you have shown to be in support of double taxation, as if the money belonged to the government or society instead of the person earning it...

I support no death tax for anyone... rich, poor, DEM, REP, fat, this, male, female, or whatever else....

You, who support even more ways of taxation in a wealth redistribution scheme at the hands of a bloated government, shows yourself to be the welfare whore you proclaim others to be... you ignorant pole smoker

You just don't want people to pay their fair share, and don't give a damn if you bankrupt our country. You're nothing more than a middleclass welfare queen, who doesn't care about how you weaken our nation.

No... what I want is EXACTLY the fair share, you twit

What YOU want is selective equal treatment... equal treatment when it suits you, UNEQUAL treatment for others when it suits you

I will stick with the support of equal treatment for every citizen by government, in ALL aspects, whether it is to my personal benefit or not

So you support the right of homosexuals to marry a sole consenting adult of their choosing and serve in the military without hiding their sexuality, just like every other citizen can? Equal treatment in ALL aspects?

 

[SuMar]

Damn... you are more stupid than you claim others to be.... hey are not the same thing... and now you have shown to be in support of double taxation, as if the money belonged to the government or society instead of the person earning it...

I support no death tax for anyone... rich, poor, DEM, REP, fat, this, male, female, or whatever else....

You, who support even more ways of taxation in a wealth redistribution scheme at the hands of a bloated government, shows yourself to be the welfare whore you proclaim others to be... you ignorant pole smoker

You just don't want people to pay their fair share, and don't give a damn if you bankrupt our country. You're nothing more than a middleclass welfare queen, who doesn't care about how you weaken our nation.

No... what I want is EXACTLY the fair share, you twit

What YOU want is selective equal treatment... equal treatment when it suits you, UNEQUAL treatment for others when it suits you

I will stick with the support of equal treatment for every citizen by government, in ALL aspects, whether it is to my personal benefit or not

Libs always exclude the wealthy when it comes to equal treatment. With an addendum that the lower class receive "special" treatment at the expense of the wealthy.

 

[Big Black Dog]

I think everybody in America should pay taxes at the same rate. I also think that the 49% of Americans that don't pay any Federal taxes should buck up and pay taxes like the rest of us. Everybody wants to gripe about what taxes the rich pay, or what they should be paying, but nobody seems to have much to say about the nearly half of the population that pay no Federal taxes at all. So, liberal pals, what's fair about that? In my humble opinion, I strongly support the ideas of the "Fair Tax" movement.

 

[QUENTIN]

I think everybody in America should pay taxes at the same rate. I also think that the 49% of Americans that don't pay any Federal taxes should buck up and pay taxes like the rest of us. Everybody wants to gripe about what taxes the rich pay, or what they should be paying, but nobody seems to have much to say about the nearly half of the population that pay no Federal taxes at all. So, liberal pals, what's fair about that? In my humble opinion, I strongly support the ideas of the "Fair Tax" movement.

So you disagree with Adam Smith then, and his argument that in a Capitalist economy it is both necessary and fair for the wealthy to pay taxes at a higher rate than the poor?

"It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

-- Adam Smith, Father of Capitalism, in The Wealth of Nations, Foundation of Capitalist Economic Theory

Of course it's fine if you do, but if the economy and its operation is in large part based on that principle, which the government has followed since it first started collecting income tax, what do you think the impact would be of this departure from capitalist principles and how would you characterize the new system?

 

[DiamondDave]

You just don't want people to pay their fair share, and don't give a damn if you bankrupt our country. You're nothing more than a middleclass welfare queen, who doesn't care about how you weaken our nation.

No... what I want is EXACTLY the fair share, you twit

What YOU want is selective equal treatment... equal treatment when it suits you, UNEQUAL treatment for others when it suits you

I will stick with the support of equal treatment for every citizen by government, in ALL aspects, whether it is to my personal benefit or not

So you support the right of homosexuals to marry a sole consenting adult of their choosing and serve in the military without hiding their sexuality, just like every other citizen can? Equal treatment in ALL aspects?

I support the right of any homosexual to live with or be with anyone they choose.. I also support getting the government out of the marriage business and making any governmental recognized family or civil union based on the exact same treatment... being taxation, census, inheritance, power of attorney for emergencies, etc....

I do not support the redefinition of marriage for the special treatment of a tiny few whacko activists

I do not support actions by persons in the military that are a detriment to the mission and morale... so no, I do not support homosexuals serving in the military... just as I do not support others with mental, medical, or behavioral problems serving in the military

 

[QUENTIN]

I support the right of any homosexual to live with or be with anyone they choose.. I also support getting the government out of the marriage business and making any governmental recognized family or civil union based on the exact same treatment... being taxation, census, inheritance, power of attorney for emergencies, etc....

I do not support the redefinition of marriage for the special treatment of a tiny few whacko activists

Fair enough, that's consistent and equal treatment if the government recognized only contractual civil unions and "marriage" is a religious matter. Though, as a side question, if it's just churches that recognize "marriages" then, what stops the Unitarian Universalist church from granting a purely religious "marriage license" to a homosexual couple? Would you oppose that since the definition would then be a subjective religious matter without legal ramifications?

I do not support actions by persons in the military that are a detriment to the mission and morale... so no, I do not support homosexuals serving in the military... just as I do not support others with mental, medical, or behavioral problems serving in the military

And here we run into contradiction or hypocrisy.

If you don't think homosexual citizens can serve in the same manner and under the same rules as heterosexual citizens, then you don't support "equal treatment in ALL aspects." What makes homosexuals any different as Americans than heterosexuals, besides what they do consensually with their genitals? Homosexuality is not a crime and is not legally defined as a mental, medical, or behavioral problem. Homosexuality does not void any of the rights conferred on all citizens. Therefore to not unequivocally allow gays to serve is to divide the country into "citizens" and "gay citizens" who face different and UNEQUAL treatment. It's to set up the same kind of false "separate but equal" rules that were deemed unconstitutional when they tried it with black Americans. It's a basic civil rights issue.

Being personally opposed to homosexuality for whatever reason is one thing, but to think it means different laws and rules should apply to you than they do to other law-abiding citizens is categorically to not believe in equal treatment in all aspects, but different treatment in some aspects when it suits your personal ideology and preference. That's the same inconsistency you chastise others for.

 

[Care4all]

I think everybody in America should pay taxes at the same rate. I also think that the 49% of Americans that don't pay any Federal taxes should buck up and pay taxes like the rest of us. Everybody wants to gripe about what taxes the rich pay, or what they should be paying, but nobody seems to have much to say about the nearly half of the population that pay no Federal taxes at all. So, liberal pals, what's fair about that? In my humble opinion, I strongly support the ideas of the "Fair Tax" movement.

Big Black dog, the poorest DO PAY Federal Taxes, they just do not pay income taxes. the Federal Taxes the poor and middle class pay are the Social security tax, of which nearly $200 - $300 BILLION a year of social security surplus taxes have been collected from them and used each year to pay in the budget, for what income taxes should have been paying for....plus they pay medicare taxes on every dime they make as well. In addition to this they pay nearly all of the federal gas taxes compared to the wealthiest, and they pay the majority of the Federal cigarette taxes compared to the top 2% of the wealthiest in this country....in addition to this, every thing they purchase made by a corporation, they paid the corporation's federal taxes that are built in to the price of the product.

so, in my opinion, it is far from reality and factual, when people claim there are 49% of this country's working citizens that pay no Federal taxes to support this country.

Can't you see that this claim is distorting what is actually going on here....and this is the wealthiest trying to take even more from the poorest than they ALREADY take, so that the wealthiest can have less taken from them....? This is the very wealthiest attacking the middle class and poor, who already OVER contribute a huge percentage of EVERY DIME of their income to social security taxes, which are then used to pay for the budget of which federal taxes outside of SS should be paying? While the very wealthiest, only AT ABSOLUTE MAX pay social security taxes on only their first +/- $100k....that is just some of them pay that, because small business owners avoid SS taxes on any of the money they take in from their business as individual income/capital gain, where no social security tax is required to be paid on it.

It is REVERSE ROBINHOOD....

And I will NEVER understand those who support such....(shakes head) only because it is NOT as you all portray, (that these people pay no federal taxes to support this country), the FINE PRINT on what is really happening is important, again, imo.

Care

 

[Big Black Dog]

I think everybody in America should pay taxes at the same rate. I also think that the 49% of Americans that don't pay any Federal taxes should buck up and pay taxes like the rest of us. Everybody wants to gripe about what taxes the rich pay, or what they should be paying, but nobody seems to have much to say about the nearly half of the population that pay no Federal taxes at all. So, liberal pals, what's fair about that? In my humble opinion, I strongly support the ideas of the "Fair Tax" movement.

Big Black dog, the poorest DO PAY Federal Taxes, they just do not pay income taxes. the Federal Taxes the poor and middle class pay are the Social security tax, of which nearly $200 - $300 BILLION a year of social security surplus taxes have been collected from them and used each year to pay in the budget, for what income taxes should have been paying for....plus they pay medicare taxes on every dime they make as well. In addition to this they pay nearly all of the federal gas taxes compared to the wealthiest, and they pay the majority of the Federal cigarette taxes compared to the top 2% of the wealthiest in this country....in addition to this, every thing they purchase made by a corporation, they paid the corporation's federal taxes that are built in to the price of the product.

so, in my opinion, it is far from reality and factual, when people claim there are 49% of this country's working citizens that pay no Federal taxes to support this country.

Can't you see that this claim is distorting what is actually going on here....and this is the wealthiest trying to take even more from the poorest than they ALREADY take, so that the wealthiest can have less taken from them....? This is the very wealthiest attacking the middle class and poor, who already OVER contribute a huge percentage of EVERY DIME of their income to social security taxes, which are then used to pay for the budget of which federal taxes outside of SS should be paying? While the very wealthiest, only AT ABSOLUTE MAX pay social security taxes on only their first +/- $100k....that is just some of them pay that, because small business owners avoid SS taxes on any of the money they take in from their business as individual income/capital gain, where no social security tax is required to be paid on it.

It is REVERSE ROBINHOOD....

And I will NEVER understand those who support such....(shakes head) only because it is NOT as you all portray, (that these people pay no federal taxes to support this country), the FINE PRINT on what is really happening is important, again, imo.

Care

We have to agree to disagree. I think it is a fair thing for every American to pay the exact same amount of taxes as any other citizen. If the rate of income taxes are, for the sake of conversation, 10% of all earned income, then I think it is a fair thing for everybody to pay 10% of all income earned in taxes. Just because a person is industrious and earns more than someone who is less fortunate or less industrious doesn't mean you have the right to essentially pick his pocket just because he has more. I also do not agree with tax exemptions for children, home loans, earned income, child care expenses, etc. If you cannot support the children you bring into the world you should not be having them. Everybody should have a certain amount of tax free income, again, just for the sake of conversation, $20,000.00. All income earned after that initial $20,000.00 should be taxed the same for everybody at the same rate. No other tax exemptions for either private citizens or business. Our whole tax schedule and laws are a disgrace. The most simple person of reason should be able to figure out his own taxes and pay them. There is no need for multiple volumes of tax codes. At the most, the tax codes should be maybe two or three pages of laws and regulations.

 

[MikeK]

Anyone got a valid reason for this?

Because everyone has not derived the same level of benefit from exploiting the resources of this Nation. The problem is not any more complicated than that.

During our most economically productive years, between 1945 and 1982, the maximum level of the progressive income tax rate was 91%. There still was an upper (wealthy) class consisting of many millionaires. Ronald Reagan changed all that. Today that wealthy category has greatly expanded and now includes many billionaires while the lower class of Americans has also greatly expanded and includes in increasing percentage below the povery level and the homeless category.

In short, the inequitable distribution of wealth is clearly transforming America into a third world country. This is a problem which can be solved by restoring the 91% tax rate, imposing import tariffs and penalizing American corporations that export jobs to foreign countries.

Why aren't we doing these things? Because -- "The average man in the street does not recognize the devil even when the devil is holding him by the throat." [Johann von Goethe]

 

[DiamondDave]

I support the right of any homosexual to live with or be with anyone they choose.. I also support getting the government out of the marriage business and making any governmental recognized family or civil union based on the exact same treatment... being taxation, census, inheritance, power of attorney for emergencies, etc....

I do not support the redefinition of marriage for the special treatment of a tiny few whacko activists

Fair enough, that's consistent and equal treatment if the government recognized only contractual civil unions and "marriage" is a religious matter. Though, as a side question, if it's just churches that recognize "marriages" then, what stops the Unitarian Universalist church from granting a purely religious "marriage license" to a homosexual couple? Would you oppose that since the definition would then be a subjective religious matter without legal ramifications?

I do not support actions by persons in the military that are a detriment to the mission and morale... so no, I do not support homosexuals serving in the military... just as I do not support others with mental, medical, or behavioral problems serving in the military

And here we run into contradiction or hypocrisy.

If you don't think homosexual citizens can serve in the same manner and under the same rules as heterosexual citizens, then you don't support "equal treatment in ALL aspects." What makes homosexuals any different as Americans than heterosexuals, besides what they do consensually with their genitals? Homosexuality is not a crime and is not legally defined as a mental, medical, or behavioral problem. Homosexuality does not void any of the rights conferred on all citizens. Therefore to not unequivocally allow gays to serve is to divide the country into "citizens" and "gay citizens" who face different and UNEQUAL treatment. It's to set up the same kind of false "separate but equal" rules that were deemed unconstitutional when they tried it with black Americans. It's a basic civil rights issue.

Being personally opposed to homosexuality for whatever reason is one thing, but to think it means different laws and rules should apply to you than they do to other law-abiding citizens is categorically to not believe in equal treatment in all aspects, but different treatment in some aspects when it suits your personal ideology and preference. That's the same inconsistency you chastise others for.

I gave my reasoning.. detrimental to morale and mission... more difficult for billeting.. etc... and just as other choices are frowned upon, leading to removal from the military.. and just as other conditions and behaviors lead to removal from the military, I support removal from the military on the grounds of homosexuality or homosexual behavior... Homosexuality is not nor should it be a crime, but we are not talking about a civilian crime here or even a military 'crime'.. we are talking morale, logistics, and mission.. something you appear to know nothing about... oh, and homosexuality is not defined as 'natural' or 'genetic' either... and on that note, many genetic abnormalities (if some homosexuals would be determined to be caused by a genetic trait and not just choice) prevent military service or removal from service

As for your first question.... While I think Unitarian Universalists are about as legit as Moonies or cultists, what they choose to call something is up to them... but just because they call something a certain term, others are not forced to accept or recognize it.... big difference with the governmental agenda that is put forth by the homosexual activists