Why aren't the anti-choice people against birth control pills.

[teapartysamurai]

In the rare chance an egg is produced while a woman is on birth control, the birth control pill will often cause a fertilized egg - in other words - a HUMAN BEING - to fail to attach to the uterine wall. This results in an abortion.

Why is it OK to kill an embryo right after conception with a birth control pill, but not anything else?

You are confusing birth control pills with RU486. There is a difference between the pill which prevents conception and RU486 which stops (aka kills) a pregnancy.

And you are misinformed. Eggs are not "produced." Women are born with every egg they are every going to have already in their bodies.

The pill simply stops them from being fertilized.

That being said Catholics think birth control is a sin.

I don't use birth control. The pill makes me sick as a dog. I can't and won't use it. There are other methods besides the "pill" to prevent pregnancy.

You are extremely misinformed.

 

[teapartysamurai]

That's an extremely valid observation. Most pro-lifers use birth control and have abortions as a byproduct of such usage. Especially the ones using IUD's. All artificial birth control causes abortions, some at higher rates than others, but a woman who is sexually active from 15-45 and is on birth control the entire time, except to have 2 children, will, on average, have 1-5 abortions depending on the pill she's on. If she's using an IUD, the number could easily be in the hundreds.

Also, I don't see much difference between the mentality and rationale behind abortion and birth control usage.

That is bogus. You are confusing miscarriage with prevention of fertilization.

Preventing fertilization is NOT an abortion.

And not all pro lifers use the bill or IUDs.

There are some of us that simply will not take the risks.

 

[Barb]

That's an extremely valid observation. Most pro-lifers use birth control and have abortions as a byproduct of such usage. Especially the ones using IUD's. All artificial birth control causes abortions, some at higher rates than others, but a woman who is sexually active from 15-45 and is on birth control the entire time, except to have 2 children, will, on average, have 1-5 abortions depending on the pill she's on. If she's using an IUD, the number could easily be in the hundreds.

Also, I don't see much difference between the mentality and rationale behind abortion and birth control usage.

Oh fuck it. You kill the sperm before it reaches the egg, and prevent that "match made in heaven," and aren't you committing murder right then and there?? The sperm is wasted, that month's eggs are wasted, and everyone dies.

Well, except the mother from having endless babies, and the babies that are already born because they have enough to eat and their parents can send them to college so they don't have to work at low wage hard labor all their lives, and the kids spaced out enough to have a viable chance to LIVE long enough to be born, and a better chance of surviving to age five, and again the mother who has a lower chance of dying during childbirth...

For crissakes. You people are SICK.

And yes, I did type "you people." And I meant that, from the heart.

 

[teapartysamurai]

What about the fertilized eggs which fail to attach naturally to the uterine wall? Does nature itself have a process to abort a pregnancy?

Besides: who is going to scream "MURDERER!" at a fifteen year old scared out of her wits kid when the pill kicks in? Where's the fun in that?

It isn't natural when a birth control pill is causing it.

I agree. Saying it happens naturally is the same kind of relativism as saying the mailman is going to die anyway, therefore it is ok if I shoot him. Or saying people die naturally all the time, therefore it is ok for me to shoot the mailman.

The two are not a valid comparison. The fact is pro-lifers who use birth control are hypocrites.

See this is how liberals play this game.

They ignore facts like the differnce between PREVENTING pregnancy and killing a pregnancy after the fact.

There is no hypocrisy there, but liberals are going to say there is anyway because they want to feel morally superior because they are FOR killing children. HUH?????

Yeah, that's their argument.

But your argument is akin to saying preventing a car accident is the same as killing any witnesses in the car you hit, AFTER having an accident.

It's JUST not the same.

Same goes for pregnancy. There is a huge difference in killing a pregnancy and preventing that pregnancy from occuring.

Your information on HOW pregnancy happens is WOEFULLY ignorant.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Use of vague language does you no favors. Neither does inventing your own titles for other people.

LOL! So the anti-choicers get to come up with labels for me - but I can't do the same. OK!

It's never really a great idea, but when it begins to make communication difficult it should just be avoided.

Women's rights to what? To eat, not be beaten? You're derailing your own thread. lol

To her own womb.

Women didn't have the right to a womb until Roe v. Wade? Just say a legal right to have an abortion. Not that I think 'rights' language has any business in this topic, but at least that is understandable.

There are no rights for fetuses in the Constitution. The SCOTUS invented some degree of rights for later term fetuses in Roe v Wade.

 

[Gadawg73]

Most true fundementalists are against vascetomy.
Funny how "conservatives" always want government to legislate abortion only.

 

[Si modo]

It isn't natural when a birth control pill is causing it.

I agree. Saying it happens naturally is the same kind of relativism as saying the mailman is going to die anyway, therefore it is ok if I shoot him. Or saying people die naturally all the time, therefore it is ok for me to shoot the mailman.

The two are not a valid comparison. The fact is pro-lifers who use birth control are hypocrites.

See this is how liberals play this game.

They ignore facts like the differnce between PREVENTING pregnancy and killing a pregnancy after the fact.

There is no hypocrisy there, but liberals are going to say there is anyway because they want to feel morally superior because they are FOR killing children. HUH?????

Yeah, that's their argument.

But your argument is akin to saying preventing a car accident is the same as killing any witnesses in the car you hit, AFTER having an accident.

It's JUST not the same.

Same goes for pregnancy. There is a huge difference in killing a pregnancy and preventing that pregnancy from occuring.

Your information on HOW pregnancy happens is WOEFULLY ignorant.

Actually, there is hypocrisy. If one uses the argument that life begins at conception, thus abortion is murder, then they MUST also be against the Pill for the same reason.

 

[teapartysamurai]

That's an extremely valid observation. Most pro-lifers use birth control and have abortions as a byproduct of such usage. Especially the ones using IUD's. All artificial birth control causes abortions, some at higher rates than others, but a woman who is sexually active from 15-45 and is on birth control the entire time, except to have 2 children, will, on average, have 1-5 abortions depending on the pill she's on. If she's using an IUD, the number could easily be in the hundreds.

Also, I don't see much difference between the mentality and rationale behind abortion and birth control usage.

BC pills and other types of BC are not abortifacients... to abort a developing and growing human, you must have implantation in the womb.... a good % (I do not have all the specifics on the exact #) of fertilized eggs never implant and go beyond initial mitosis... your statement that all artificial BC results in abortions is literally absurd

What next, saying anyone who masturbates is a hypocrite if they are anti-abortion?

There is much of a difference between preventing and aborting

So its OK to kill a human being so long as it has not attached to the uterine wall, is that what you are saying?

Or is a fertilized egg not a human being?

How can you tell there is a bunch of idiots talking that HAVE NEVER HAD CHILDREN?????? They start talking about abortion and make it obvious THEY HAVE NO FREAKING IDEA HOW CONCEPTION WORKS.

Let me educate you morons:

Answer: Birth control pills, or oral contraceptives, contain hormones that suppress ovulation. During ovulation an egg is released from the ovaries, without ovulation there is no egg to be fertilized and pregnancy cannot occur. There are 2 types of birth control pills -- the combined pill and the Minipill. The combined pill contains both estrogen and progestin, while the Minipill contains only progestin.

How Does the Birth Control Pill Work?

The pill does NOT prevent the fertilized egg from attaching YOU IDIOTS, it simply prevents ovulation from occuring thus there is no egg to fertilize.

It does not "abort" an already fertiziled egg. As I said, you are confusing RU486 with the pill.

If you are going to make it clear you are idiots that are ignorant about pregnancy keep going.

I've had two kids. How many have you had?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Recall all the rightwingers around here who signed onto the notion that abortion rights in the black community were causing a black genocide?

Why wouldn't they, logically, consider the availability of birth control in the black community to be essentially the same thing?

 

[teapartysamurai]

I agree. Saying it happens naturally is the same kind of relativism as saying the mailman is going to die anyway, therefore it is ok if I shoot him. Or saying people die naturally all the time, therefore it is ok for me to shoot the mailman.

The two are not a valid comparison. The fact is pro-lifers who use birth control are hypocrites.

See this is how liberals play this game.

They ignore facts like the differnce between PREVENTING pregnancy and killing a pregnancy after the fact.

There is no hypocrisy there, but liberals are going to say there is anyway because they want to feel morally superior because they are FOR killing children. HUH?????

Yeah, that's their argument.

But your argument is akin to saying preventing a car accident is the same as killing any witnesses in the car you hit, AFTER having an accident.

It's JUST not the same.

Same goes for pregnancy. There is a huge difference in killing a pregnancy and preventing that pregnancy from occuring.

Your information on HOW pregnancy happens is WOEFULLY ignorant.

Actually, there is hypocrisy. If one uses the argument that life begins at conception, thus abortion is murder, then they MUST also be against the Pill for the same reason.

No, because, as I said, people are confusing what the pill does with RU486 (the morning after pill)

Answer: Birth control pills, or oral contraceptives, contain hormones that suppress ovulation. During ovulation an egg is released from the ovaries, without ovulation there is no egg to be fertilized and pregnancy cannot occur. There are 2 types of birth control pills -- the combined pill and the Minipill. The combined pill contains both estrogen and progestin, while the Minipill contains only progestin.

How Does the Birth Control Pill Work?

In short, it fools your body into thinking you are pregnant.

Thus it is no more hypocritical to use the pill than to have sex while already pregnant, as your body will NATURALLY prevent another pregnancy (although there have been RARE cases where a woman has become pregnant again while already pregnancy. I reiterate that's RARE)

It's naturally prevents you from ovulating. It does not KILL anything.

That being said. I don't use the pill. Only a man would invent something that makes you feel like you are in your first trimester ALL THE FREAKING TIME, and think that's a great thing.

I'm not interested in feeling like I have to throw up all the time. I quit after one week, and don't regret it. Too many health risks with the damn things anyway.

There are other natural ways to prevent pregnancy that work and we've only had two kids and no you may not ask. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

 

[Si modo]

See this is how liberals play this game.

They ignore facts like the differnce between PREVENTING pregnancy and killing a pregnancy after the fact.

There is no hypocrisy there, but liberals are going to say there is anyway because they want to feel morally superior because they are FOR killing children. HUH?????

Yeah, that's their argument.

But your argument is akin to saying preventing a car accident is the same as killing any witnesses in the car you hit, AFTER having an accident.

It's JUST not the same.

Same goes for pregnancy. There is a huge difference in killing a pregnancy and preventing that pregnancy from occuring.

Your information on HOW pregnancy happens is WOEFULLY ignorant.

Actually, there is hypocrisy. If one uses the argument that life begins at conception, thus abortion is murder, then they MUST also be against the Pill for the same reason.

No, because, as I said, people are confusing what the pill does with RU486 (the morning after pill)

Answer: Birth control pills, or oral contraceptives, contain hormones that suppress ovulation. During ovulation an egg is released from the ovaries, without ovulation there is no egg to be fertilized and pregnancy cannot occur. There are 2 types of birth control pills -- the combined pill and the Minipill. The combined pill contains both estrogen and progestin, while the Minipill contains only progestin.

How Does the Birth Control Pill Work?

In short, it fools your body into thinking you are pregnant.

Thus it is no more hypocritical to use the pill than to have sex while already pregnant, as your body will NATURALLY prevent another pregnancy (although there have been RARE cases where a woman has become pregnant again while already pregnancy. I reiterate that's RARE)

It's naturally prevents you from ovulating. It does not KILL anything.

That being said. I don't use the pill. Only a man would invent something that makes you feel like you are in your first trimester ALL THE FREAKING TIME, and think that's a great thing.

I'm not interested in feeling like I have to throw up all the time. I quit after one week, and don't regret it. Too many health risks with the damn things anyway.

There are other natural ways to prevent pregnancy that work and we've only had two kids and no you may not ask. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

No, TPS. As the OP stated and I linked to, one of the mechanisms of actions of the combined oral contraceptive pill (the 'Pill') is to prevent implantation of the fertilized egg. When the primary mechanism (prevent fertilization) fails, the secondary is a back up. The single hormone pill has a high fail rate, still. The combined, less so.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Recall all the rightwingers around here who signed onto the notion that abortion rights in the black community were causing a black genocide?

Why wouldn't they, logically, consider the availability of birth control in the black community to be essentially the same thing?

I have two words to reply to that:

MARGARET SANGER, Founding of Planned Parenthood!

The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."
Margaret Sanger (editor). The Woman Rebel, Volume I, Number 1. Reprinted in Woman and the New Race. New York: Brentanos Publishers, 1922.

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."
Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12.

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."
Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255 Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America. New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.

Margaret Sanger quotes : Founder of Planned Parenthood

 

[NYcarbineer]

[y.

There are other natural ways to prevent pregnancy that work and we've only had two kids and no you may not ask. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Now I'M sick.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Actually, there is hypocrisy. If one uses the argument that life begins at conception, thus abortion is murder, then they MUST also be against the Pill for the same reason.

No, because, as I said, people are confusing what the pill does with RU486 (the morning after pill)

Answer: Birth control pills, or oral contraceptives, contain hormones that suppress ovulation. During ovulation an egg is released from the ovaries, without ovulation there is no egg to be fertilized and pregnancy cannot occur. There are 2 types of birth control pills -- the combined pill and the Minipill. The combined pill contains both estrogen and progestin, while the Minipill contains only progestin.

How Does the Birth Control Pill Work?

In short, it fools your body into thinking you are pregnant.

Thus it is no more hypocritical to use the pill than to have sex while already pregnant, as your body will NATURALLY prevent another pregnancy (although there have been RARE cases where a woman has become pregnant again while already pregnancy. I reiterate that's RARE)

It's naturally prevents you from ovulating. It does not KILL anything.

That being said. I don't use the pill. Only a man would invent something that makes you feel like you are in your first trimester ALL THE FREAKING TIME, and think that's a great thing.

I'm not interested in feeling like I have to throw up all the time. I quit after one week, and don't regret it. Too many health risks with the damn things anyway.

There are other natural ways to prevent pregnancy that work and we've only had two kids and no you may not ask. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

No, TPS. As the OP stated and I linked to, one of the mechanisms of actions of the combined oral contraceptive pill (the 'Pill') is to prevent implantation of the fertilized egg. When the primary mechanism (prevent fertilization) fails, the secondary is a back up. The pill has a high fail rate, still.

But like I said THAT is RU486.

Now, I AGREE. That when the pill fails and they go to the RU486 to stop the pregnancy, THAT IS ABORTION.

But, for example, I'm pro-life and I would not use RU486.

The op is supplying a straw dog. Claiming those that are pro-life would use RU 486, when the truth is pro-lifers are against RU486 as am I.

There is a huge difference between preventing ovulation and killing a conceived embryo.

But he is trying to confuse the two things. I see no evidence from the op or anywhere in the thread that pro-lifers, like myself, are for or would use RU-486.

Birth control (in my own case) has failed twice. Their ages are now 20 and 12. Never regret having them either.

 

[Si modo]

No, because, as I said, people are confusing what the pill does with RU486 (the morning after pill)

Answer: Birth control pills, or oral contraceptives, contain hormones that suppress ovulation. During ovulation an egg is released from the ovaries, without ovulation there is no egg to be fertilized and pregnancy cannot occur. There are 2 types of birth control pills -- the combined pill and the Minipill. The combined pill contains both estrogen and progestin, while the Minipill contains only progestin.

How Does the Birth Control Pill Work?

In short, it fools your body into thinking you are pregnant.

Thus it is no more hypocritical to use the pill than to have sex while already pregnant, as your body will NATURALLY prevent another pregnancy (although there have been RARE cases where a woman has become pregnant again while already pregnancy. I reiterate that's RARE)

It's naturally prevents you from ovulating. It does not KILL anything.

That being said. I don't use the pill. Only a man would invent something that makes you feel like you are in your first trimester ALL THE FREAKING TIME, and think that's a great thing.

I'm not interested in feeling like I have to throw up all the time. I quit after one week, and don't regret it. Too many health risks with the damn things anyway.

There are other natural ways to prevent pregnancy that work and we've only had two kids and no you may not ask. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

No, TPS. As the OP stated and I linked to, one of the mechanisms of actions of the combined oral contraceptive pill (the 'Pill') is to prevent implantation of the fertilized egg. When the primary mechanism (prevent fertilization) fails, the secondary is a back up. The pill has a high fail rate, still.

But like I said THAT is RU486.

Now, I AGREE. That when the pill fails and they go to the RU486 to stop the pregnancy, THAT IS ABORTION.

But, for example, I'm pro-life and I would not use RU486.

The op is supplying a straw dog. Claiming those that are pro-life would use RU 486, when the truth is pro-lifers are against RU486 as am I.

There is a huge difference between preventing ovulation and killing a conceived embryo.

But he is trying to confuse the two things. I see no evidence from the op or anywhere in the thread that pro-lifers, like myself, are for or would use RU-486.

Birth control (in my own case) has failed twice. Their ages are now 20 and 12. Never regret having them either.

No TPS. Look at my link earlier. The Pill will prevent implantaion of the fertilized egg.

 

[teapartysamurai]

[y.

There are other natural ways to prevent pregnancy that work and we've only had two kids and no you may not ask. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Now I'M sick.

Hey hypocrite. You MEN start a thread about WHAT'S A WOMAN'S BUSINESS then don't cry when you find out the dirty details.

You want me to explain periods to you now?

 

[Si modo]

For those who missed my ealier link (from the package insert of Ortho-triclen (R)):

....
Combination oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the
primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include
changes in the cervical mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus)
and the endometrium (which reduce the likelihood of implantation).
....

 

[teapartysamurai]

No, TPS. As the OP stated and I linked to, one of the mechanisms of actions of the combined oral contraceptive pill (the 'Pill') is to prevent implantation of the fertilized egg. When the primary mechanism (prevent fertilization) fails, the secondary is a back up. The pill has a high fail rate, still.

But like I said THAT is RU486.

Now, I AGREE. That when the pill fails and they go to the RU486 to stop the pregnancy, THAT IS ABORTION.

But, for example, I'm pro-life and I would not use RU486.

The op is supplying a straw dog. Claiming those that are pro-life would use RU 486, when the truth is pro-lifers are against RU486 as am I.

There is a huge difference between preventing ovulation and killing a conceived embryo.

But he is trying to confuse the two things. I see no evidence from the op or anywhere in the thread that pro-lifers, like myself, are for or would use RU-486.

Birth control (in my own case) has failed twice. Their ages are now 20 and 12. Never regret having them either.

No TPS. Look at my link earlier. The Pill will prevent implantaion of the fertilized egg.

Yes, but as pointed out earlier it does so by the same mechanism that a woman already pregnant will not be able to get pregnant again if they have sex while pregnant.

It's the same hormones.

The only way to say this is hypocrisy is to say all women having sex during pregnancy are hypocrites.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Inconsistent with what? I know some people got it in their head that this is christian morality thing but moral decisions that affect the lives of others such as laws against theft everyone should be for but moral decisions that don't affect anyone else is someone's own business such as using contraceptives before conception.

The birth control pill can cause an abortion after conception.

The only abortion it can cause is IF you keep taking it after embryonic implantation and THEN it would act as an 'abortion pill'... before implantation, it is not an abortion by definition...

Does life not begin at conception? You're telling me its not a human being until implantation? Since when? As soon as conception occurs, the unique collection of DNA that will determine a human beings genetic identity has already been formed.

 

[Care4all]

BC pills and other types of BC are not abortifacients... to abort a developing and growing human, you must have implantation in the womb.... a good % (I do not have all the specifics on the exact #) of fertilized eggs never implant and go beyond initial mitosis... your statement that all artificial BC results in abortions is literally absurd

What next, saying anyone who masturbates is a hypocrite if they are anti-abortion?

There is much of a difference between preventing and aborting

So its OK to kill a human being so long as it has not attached to the uterine wall, is that what you are saying?

Or is a fertilized egg not a human being?

There is zero chance for development without uterine implantation... it is not being aborted from something unless it is attached to something... to terminate it has to be in the process of something... there is no process til the process starts, and the process starts with implantation into the womb... otherwise it is simply the passing of a fertilized egg out of the system, as happens pretty frequently in nature

Well, I suppose your thoughts on this are your thoughts on this....

This is what the Catholic church teaches on Birth control and it being abortion in some cases and morally wrong in all others....

I. CATHOLIC TEACHING ABOUT MARRIAGE AND THE REGULATION OF BIRTHS

WHAT DOES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACH ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP OF MARRIAGE?

Marriage is a permanent relationship created by God and entered into by
the free consent of man and woman. It is a relationship of love and
service, and it is a Christian sacrament.

"The intimate partnership of married life and love has been established by
the Creator and qualified by His laws. It is rooted in the conjugal
covenant of irrevocable personal consent.. .

"By that human act whereby spouses mutually bestow and accept each other,
a relationship arises which by divine will and in the eyes of society too
is a lasting one . . . A man and a woman, who by the marriage convenant of
conjugal love 'are no longer two, but one flesh' (Mt 19:6), render mutual
help and service to each other through an intimate union of their persons
and of their actions ... Christian spouses have a special sacrament by
which they are fortified and receive a kind of consecration in the duties
AND DIGNITY OF THEIR STATE" (GAUDIUM ET SPES, 48).[1]

WHAT DOES THE CHURCH SAY ABOUT METHODS OF BIRTH CONTROL?

"When there is a question of harmonizing conjugal love with the
responsible transmission of life, the moral aspect of any procedure does
not depend solely on sincere intentions or on an evaluation of motives. It
must be determined by objective standards. These, based on the nature of
the human person and his acts, preserve the full sense of mutual
self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love. Such a goal
cannot be achieved unless the virtue of conjugal chastity is sincerely
practiced. Relying on these principles, sons of the Church may not
undertake methods of regulating procreation which are found blameworthy by
the teaching authority of the Church in its unfolding of the divine law"
(Gaudium et Spes, 51).

Does the Church teach that the unnatural or artificial means of birth
control are immoral and blameworthy? Yes. In Humanae Vitae, the
first-named form of illicit or unnatural method of birth control is
abortion (n. 14).[3]

Then, "equally to be excluded, as the teaching authority of the Church has
frequently declared, is direct sterilization, whether perpetual or
temporary whether of the man or woman" (Humanae Vitae, 14). This condemns
tubal ligations, vasectomies, and the Pill.

"Similarly excluded is every action which, either in anticipation of the
conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its
natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render
procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae, 14). Such unnatural forms include
the Pill, the intrauterine device, foams, diaphragms, condoms, withdrawal,
mutual or solitary masturbation and sodomistic practices.

Are some forms of unnatural birth control worse than others? Yes. Those
forms that act after conception has occurred to prevent the continuation
of the pregnancy participate in the additional evil of abortion. "From the
moment of its conception life must be guarded with greatest care, while
abortion and infanticide are unspeakable crimes" (Gaudium et Spes, 51).

Surgical abortion is the most obvious but not the only form. The
intrauterine device (IUD) acts primarily as an early abortion agent by
preventing implantation of the week-old human life.

The birth control Pill makes the inner lining of the uterus very hostile
to implantation. It is not known how often the Pill acts in this way, but
it cannot be denied that the Pill may be acting as an early abortion agent
in any given cycle in any given woman.[4]
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/CCLBC.TXT

So, if you are religious, and Catholic....birth control is equal to abortion.