"Who won the veep debate" thread

[Bfgrn]

And bfgrn is now channeling JFK and Goldwater both! Wow!!

Yea, JFK and Goldwater...imagine that...

Goldwater, JFK Election Campaign In '64 Might Have Offered Public A Great Debate

Since his death, much of the conversation about Goldwater has recalled his 1964 presidential campaign against Lyndon B. Johnson. And why not? It was the election that launched the modern conservative movement as well as the career of Ronald Reagan.

A few years ago I interviewed many people about that 1964 campaign and stumbled across an interesting tidbit: It was the election that could have changed American politics.

In 1963, Goldwater and his friend, John F. Kennedy, shared a radical plan: The two men would campaign as a team. The Republican and the Democratic president would barnstorm the country and speak on the same platform. The ideas - conservative vs. liberal - would be debated and the election would be a referendum on public policy.

"I knew him as a close friend and I had really looked forward to running against him in the election that was to be held," Goldwater wrote after Kennedy's death in 1963. The two candidates planned to stump the country "like politicians should do. Standing up to state our points, our issues, and then debating each other."

Imagine that. These two politicians could have built a stage for a politics of discourse, a test of ideas. Goldwater was fond of JFK. It was a friendship that did not require affirmation; they could agree to disagree.

Kennedy's assassination ended the notion of a joint campaign stage.

Goldwater even withdrew from the Republican field, saying he no longer had the stomach for a campaign. However, in January of 1964, after much pressure from his colleagues, he took up the fight against Johnson. Goldwater promised a Scottsdale crowd: "I will not change my beliefs to win votes. I will offer a choice, not an echo."

That choice did not include side-by-side comparisons with the Democratic nominee. Goldwater had no use for Johnson.


Imagine THAT...

Equality, rightly understood as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences; wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism.
Barry Goldwater

We have all made mistakes. But Dante tells us that divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on different scales. Better the occasional faults of a party living in the spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a party frozen in the ice of its own indifference.
President John F. Kennedy

 

[JoeB131]

Jake thinks Mitt is really a moderate, who is going to be a liberal once he gets elected.

It's horseshit.

Are you a lefty, yes or no?

You are and that makes you the mirror copy of a Tea Party wack on our side.

We don't need either side of wacks making any policy.

Don't have the courage or honesty to answer the question, 'eh Jake.

But I'll answer yours. I am a liberal. I have been a liberal all my adult life. Our nation was founded by the most liberal thinkers of their time. My centrist beliefs have been the same for 50 years Jake. If I had to describe those beliefs, they are very much in line with our late President Kennedy. And another man who I admire is Barry Goldwater. I've witnessed a drastic change in my country. A conservative era that began with Nixon, festered with Reagan and ruptured under George W. Bush has eviscerated the robust middle class in America. A new Gilded Age is the final outcome. It was from the beginning. It will take decades of Second New Deal type policies to return that middle class to what was it once was.

The Republican Party is morally bankrupt. It is no longer a viable party for We, the People. It it is now the party that caterers solely to the top 1%. If Romney is elected, the biggest polluters in this country will set our energy and environmental policies. If Romney is elected Wall Street will determine our economic policies. If Romney is elected, citizens who can't afford health insurance will be directed by the president named Romney to go to the emergency room. And if Romney is elected, the words public and common trust will be eliminated.

Your man Mitten is not the answer Jake, he is cut from the same cloth as Bush.

Your man Mitten is to the right of Barry Goldwater. Think about THAT Jake. The so called centrist you worship is to the right of the father of modern conservatism.

So, if Jack Kennedy and Barry Goldwater are 'leftists' that should be sanctioned, then so am I Jake.

"Harry Truman once said, 'There are 14 or 15 million Americans who have the resources to have representatives in Washington to protect their interests, and that the interests of the great mass of the other people - the 150 or 160 million - is the responsibility of the president of the United States, and I propose to fulfill it.'"
President John F. Kennedy

"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the Republican party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."
Barry Goldwater

 

[JakeStarkey]

Mitt is a moderate Republican.

Lefty JoeB and Lefty Bfgrn are . . . lefties.

Own up to your infirmity, guys.

 

[Bfgrn]

Mitt is a moderate Republican.

Lefty JoeB and Lefty Bfgrn are . . . lefties.

Own up to your infirmity, guys.

Whatever you say Frank...

 

[AceRothstein]

Mitt is a moderate Republican.

Lefty JoeB and Lefty Bfgrn are . . . lefties.

Own up to your infirmity, guys.

Sometimes Mitt is a moderate, sometimes he isn't.

I could probably handle a moderate Mitt presidency but with him talking out of both sides of his mouth, I just can't trust that he would actually be moderate Mitt.

 

[Bfgrn]

Mitt is a moderate Republican.

Lefty JoeB and Lefty Bfgrn are . . . lefties.

Own up to your infirmity, guys.

Sometimes Mitt is a moderate, sometimes he isn't.

I could probably handle a moderate Mitt presidency but with him talking out of both sides of his mouth, I just can't trust that he would actually be moderate Mitt.

If you track Mitten's political career like a close aide of his father, it boils down to this:

Whatever you want to hear, whether you are from the far left or the far right...Mitten will tell you he supports it. Just don't ask for any details, policies, studies or platforms to back it up.

It used to be that integrity and honesty were important, but folks like Jake who are smitten with Mitten just worship.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Mitt is a moderate Republican.

Lefty JoeB and Lefty Bfgrn are . . . lefties.

Own up to your infirmity, guys.

Whatever you say Frank...

Thanks. . . Huggy

 

[Dick Tuck]

 

[NYcarbineer]

Old lady gunslinger seems to oddly reticent the morning after the latest debate.

 

[thanatos144]

Old lady gunslinger seems to oddly reticent the morning after the latest debate.

Maybe unlike you she has a life.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Old lady gunslinger seems to oddly reticent the morning after the latest debate.

Maybe unlike you she has a life.

I doubt it.

 

[thanatos144]

Old lady gunslinger seems to oddly reticent the morning after the latest debate.

Maybe unlike you she has a life.

I doubt it.

Not everyone can be like you and live on welfare.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Are you a lefty, yes or no?

You are and that makes you the mirror copy of a Tea Party wack on our side.

We don't need either side of wacks making any policy.

Don't have the courage or honesty to answer the question, 'eh Jake.

But I'll answer yours. I am a liberal. I have been a liberal all my adult life. Our nation was founded by the most liberal thinkers of their time. My centrist beliefs have been the same for 50 years Jake. If I had to describe those beliefs, they are very much in line with our late President Kennedy. And another man who I admire is Barry Goldwater. I've witnessed a drastic change in my country. A conservative era that began with Nixon, festered with Reagan and ruptured under George W. Bush has eviscerated the robust middle class in America. A new Gilded Age is the final outcome. It was from the beginning. It will take decades of Second New Deal type policies to return that middle class to what was it once was.

The Republican Party is morally bankrupt. It is no longer a viable party for We, the People. It it is now the party that caterers solely to the top 1%. If Romney is elected, the biggest polluters in this country will set our energy and environmental policies. If Romney is elected Wall Street will determine our economic policies. If Romney is elected, citizens who can't afford health insurance will be directed by the president named Romney to go to the emergency room. And if Romney is elected, the words public and common trust will be eliminated.

Your man Mitten is not the answer Jake, he is cut from the same cloth as Bush.

Your man Mitten is to the right of Barry Goldwater. Think about THAT Jake. The so called centrist you worship is to the right of the father of modern conservatism.

So, if Jack Kennedy and Barry Goldwater are 'leftists' that should be sanctioned, then so am I Jake.

"Harry Truman once said, 'There are 14 or 15 million Americans who have the resources to have representatives in Washington to protect their interests, and that the interests of the great mass of the other people - the 150 or 160 million - is the responsibility of the president of the United States, and I propose to fulfill it.'"
President John F. Kennedy

"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the Republican party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."
Barry Goldwater

You are a liberal or a centrist. You cannot be both.
Nixon was not even CLOSE to being a conservative. Nixon was a typical California liberal. Nixon governed as a central planner. Not a centrist.
New deal? Yer kidding. First more massive government spending will go only to further scuttle the economy.
Second....Today's entitlement minded waiting for a government handout types would NEVER tolerate a "work for welfare" or even the promise of a good paying job for a set period of time. Social safety nets have gotten much too easy to get, too lucrative and too easy to stay on.
In effect, the current recipient of taxpayer largess already HAS a new deal.
The best way to grow the middle class is for the government to get the hell out of the way of the private sector, stop proposing more taxes, higher taxes, and more regulations.
No government program, no mandate or other scheme will help anyone.
Government needs to get the hell out of the way of the economy.
NO...No one is saying there should be no regulations, no laws, no control as is the liberal straw man argument.
As for the rest of your rants about pollution and medical care....Please no more liberal talking points.
Yes I am quite sure Romney will simply snap his fingers and all EPA regualtions will be rescinded. The Clean Air Act..Gone. All who are incapable of affording private medical insurance, to hell with you. Get sick and die. Sure.
Obama is ruling, not governing, by executive fiat. We've had enough of the self proclaimed elected king.
Obama's policies have created an almost flat GDP growth rate over the time he has been in office. Obama has created over 6 trillion dollars in new debt since taking office.
Unemployment has been over 8% for his entire administration. Obama has shown no leadership nor has been willing to take any of the responsibility for the terrible economy and non -existent foreign policy. "When I took office I inherited quite a mess"..
Ok, if Obama is as great as a president as you people claim him to be, then why is Obama making excuses such as "I inherited a mess".."I have tried but it's harder than I thought"
Well Mr President, if the job is harder than you thought, then what makes you think you are now qualified for the Office of POTUS...?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Mitt is a moderate Republican.

Lefty JoeB and Lefty Bfgrn are . . . lefties.

Own up to your infirmity, guys.

Sometimes Mitt is a moderate, sometimes he isn't.

I could probably handle a moderate Mitt presidency but with him talking out of both sides of his mouth, I just can't trust that he would actually be moderate Mitt.

If you track Mitten's political career like a close aide of his father, it boils down to this:

Whatever you want to hear, whether you are from the far left or the far right...Mitten will tell you he supports it. Just don't ask for any details, policies, studies or platforms to back it up.

It used to be that integrity and honesty were important, but folks like Jake who are smitten with Mitten just worship.

Other than a few such as Teddy Roosevelt, JFK and Ronald Reagan has EVER told the people what they DID NOT want to hear?
That's why they are called politicians and not statesmen.
So please, if you are implying that "dear leader" has never pandered to a constituency or a specific special interest group, you have not been paying attention. Or you are so biased, you are blinded by that bias.

 

[Bfgrn]

Are you a lefty, yes or no?

You are and that makes you the mirror copy of a Tea Party wack on our side.

We don't need either side of wacks making any policy.

Don't have the courage or honesty to answer the question, 'eh Jake.

But I'll answer yours. I am a liberal. I have been a liberal all my adult life. Our nation was founded by the most liberal thinkers of their time. My centrist beliefs have been the same for 50 years Jake. If I had to describe those beliefs, they are very much in line with our late President Kennedy. And another man who I admire is Barry Goldwater. I've witnessed a drastic change in my country. A conservative era that began with Nixon, festered with Reagan and ruptured under George W. Bush has eviscerated the robust middle class in America. A new Gilded Age is the final outcome. It was from the beginning. It will take decades of Second New Deal type policies to return that middle class to what was it once was.

The Republican Party is morally bankrupt. It is no longer a viable party for We, the People. It it is now the party that caterers solely to the top 1%. If Romney is elected, the biggest polluters in this country will set our energy and environmental policies. If Romney is elected Wall Street will determine our economic policies. If Romney is elected, citizens who can't afford health insurance will be directed by the president named Romney to go to the emergency room. And if Romney is elected, the words public and common trust will be eliminated.

Your man Mitten is not the answer Jake, he is cut from the same cloth as Bush.

Your man Mitten is to the right of Barry Goldwater. Think about THAT Jake. The so called centrist you worship is to the right of the father of modern conservatism.

So, if Jack Kennedy and Barry Goldwater are 'leftists' that should be sanctioned, then so am I Jake.

"Harry Truman once said, 'There are 14 or 15 million Americans who have the resources to have representatives in Washington to protect their interests, and that the interests of the great mass of the other people - the 150 or 160 million - is the responsibility of the president of the United States, and I propose to fulfill it.'"
President John F. Kennedy

"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the Republican party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."
Barry Goldwater

You are a liberal or a centrist. You cannot be both.
Nixon was not even CLOSE to being a conservative. Nixon was a typical California liberal. Nixon governed as a central planner. Not a centrist.
New deal? Yer kidding. First more massive government spending will go only to further scuttle the economy.
Second....Today's entitlement minded waiting for a government handout types would NEVER tolerate a "work for welfare" or even the promise of a good paying job for a set period of time. Social safety nets have gotten much too easy to get, too lucrative and too easy to stay on.
In effect, the current recipient of taxpayer largess already HAS a new deal.
The best way to grow the middle class is for the government to get the hell out of the way of the private sector, stop proposing more taxes, higher taxes, and more regulations.
No government program, no mandate or other scheme will help anyone.
Government needs to get the hell out of the way of the economy.
NO...No one is saying there should be no regulations, no laws, no control as is the liberal straw man argument.
As for the rest of your rants about pollution and medical care....Please no more liberal talking points.
Yes I am quite sure Romney will simply snap his fingers and all EPA regualtions will be rescinded. The Clean Air Act..Gone. All who are incapable of affording private medical insurance, to hell with you. Get sick and die. Sure.
Obama is ruling, not governing, by executive fiat. We've had enough of the self proclaimed elected king.
Obama's policies have created an almost flat GDP growth rate over the time he has been in office. Obama has created over 6 trillion dollars in new debt since taking office.
Unemployment has been over 8% for his entire administration. Obama has shown no leadership nor has been willing to take any of the responsibility for the terrible economy and non -existent foreign policy. "When I took office I inherited quite a mess"..
Ok, if Obama is as great as a president as you people claim him to be, then why is Obama making excuses such as "I inherited a mess".."I have tried but it's harder than I thought"
Well Mr President, if the job is harder than you thought, then what makes you think you are now qualified for the Office of POTUS...?

Thanks for proving my point. My political views have not shifted in 50 years, but now you are saying that the 'center' is somewhere in the middle of right wing views??? I have been saying for years that the two major political parties have both shifted to the right. The GOP has shifted so far to the right is it no longer a viable party for We, the People.

Nixon, a liberal? Surely you jest. I guess you have no knowledge of the man and his sick right wing beliefs, or the 100,000 'California liberals' who ended up in prison because of Nixon's draconian beliefs?

WHO are these 'entitlement minded waiting for a government handout types'...the Romney 47 %ers?

Federal budget and Census data show that, in 2010, 91 percent of the benefit dollars from entitlement and other mandatory programs went to the elderly (people 65 and over), the seriously disabled, and members of working households. People who are neither elderly nor disabled — and do not live in a working household — received only 9 percent of the benefits.

Moreover, the vast bulk of that 9 percent goes for medical care, unemployment insurance benefits (which individuals must have a significant work history to receive), Social Security survivor benefits for the children and spouses of deceased workers, and Social Security benefits for retirees between ages 62 and 64. Seven out of the 9 percentage points go for one of these four purposes.

80 percent of the workforce has seen their wages decline in real terms over the last quarter-century, and the average household has seen 40 percent of its wealth disappear during the Great Recession. Through it all, families never asked for a handout from anyone, especially Washington. They were left to go on their own, working harder, squeezing nickels, and taking care of themselves. But their economic boats have been taking on water for years, and now the crisis has swamped millions of middle class families. ref ref

The only people in this country who are the 'entitlement minded waiting for a government handout types' are the Wall Street criminals who crashed our economy and got bonuses and golden parachutes, instead of prison sentences.

Again, I guess you pay little attention to what conservative presidents believe or do. George W. Bush castrated the Clean Water Act just by changing the meaning of a few terms.

Or that the current teapublican House of Representatives is the most anti-environmental House in history. In just the year since the GOP took control of the House, there have been at least 159 votes held against environmental protections -- including 83 targeting the Environmental Protection Agency.

And you don't even pay attention to the current right wing corporate shill running for president...

Romney: Uninsured have emergency rooms

GDP growth? Let's take a look at history...

"The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities. But in all that people can individually do as well for themselves, Government ought not to interfere."
President Abraham Lincoln