Who should own and control the means of production?

[shintao]

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally?

So why are you a liberal?

.

Because I am a humanitarian and hate seeing my fellow man (not foreigners) suffer needlessly for a state of mind.

Let me ask you, if you could end poverty and homelessness, have National Health Care, and gasoline for $2.00 a gallon, would you do it?

Because YOU hate seeing YOUR "fellow man" suffer, you think everyone should support that philosophy? That seems pretty illogical to me. Why should anyone be FORCED to give his property to a total stranger, no matter what the reason for the need?

Yes, if I could do those things without depriving other people of their property and freedom, I would be glad to do so.

Not at all, but I have a clue you never had a philosophy class, so....... I doubt you have a handle on logic.

Where did I say you had to give property? You also have comprehension problems. And at least you can give an honest answer. Because we can do that by taking back your property and your oil from corporations who are rapping you of it. By setting up a National gasoline system you can have gasoline for $2. a gallon, one dollar to run the service, and one dollar to fund humanitarian needs. No, it will not shut down private oil. They will be free to compete with National oil if they chose. Rare will be the case, but they have the freedom to their free market exercise to carry on. Frankly I am tired of giving my oil to a corporation that charges me $3-5. a gallon, that only costs .30 to refine and gives nothing back to society except another gouging.

 

[daveman]

And what in history tells you can't do it?

The fact that no socialist or liberal society has ever been able to do any of that.

Now surprise me. DON'T respond with "But that's because the right people have never been in charge! When WE'RE running it, it'll work great!"

Really? Hitler did it. Was he socialist or a facist?

Chavez did it. Was he Democratic Socialist or a facist?

Hmm, Obviously you are wrong. Whatever you want to call private enterprise in America, they can't do it, and the Socialist have to help them out. Venezuela's Extra Gasoline Shipment for US set to Arrive in Florida | venezuelanalysis.com

So...you don't mind your goals being met, but at the cost of individual liberties.

 

[shintao]

The fact that no socialist or liberal society has ever been able to do any of that.

Now surprise me. DON'T respond with "But that's because the right people have never been in charge! When WE'RE running it, it'll work great!"

Really? Hitler did it. Was he socialist or a facist?

Chavez did it. Was he Democratic Socialist or a facist?

Hmm, Obviously you are wrong. Whatever you want to call private enterprise in America, they can't do it, and the Socialist have to help them out. Venezuela's Extra Gasoline Shipment for US set to Arrive in Florida | venezuelanalysis.com

So...you don't mind your goals being met, but at the cost of individual liberties.

What Liberty would you lose? You are taking back your property and your oil. Is that a lost or gained Liberty?

 

[Contumacious]

Your hearing must be going dude, because I never asked anyone for anything I didn't earn. Contrary, you are looking pretty ignorant right now muff-mouth, and no you can't suck my cock even though you asked. So take your Hitler & shove him up your ass where he will be close to your gerbil ranch, puke.

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally?

So why are you a liberal?

.

Because I am a humanitarian and hate seeing my fellow man (not foreigners) suffer needlessly for a state of mind.

Let me ask you, if you could end poverty and homelessness, have National Health Care, and gasoline for $2.00 a gallon, would you do it?

That is a very noble philosophy.

But the problem with you fascists is that you like being a Humanitarian with other people's monies, specifically, taxpayers and US treasury funds. And if the homies don't want to play "the let' s share the wealth game" then you fuckers will send IRS goons to our property to seize it and to lock us up in debtors' prison.

.

 

[shintao]

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally?

So why are you a liberal?

.

Because I am a humanitarian and hate seeing my fellow man (not foreigners) suffer needlessly for a state of mind.

Let me ask you, if you could end poverty and homelessness, have National Health Care, and gasoline for $2.00 a gallon, would you do it?

That is a very noble philosophy.

But the problem with you fascists is that you like being a Humanitarian with other people's monies, specifically, taxpayers and US treasury funds. And if the homies don't want to play "the let' s share the wealth game" then you fuckers will send IRS goons to our property to seize it and to lock us up in debtors' prison.

.

No, I am talking about your poperty & oil & the poor man's property & oil,...not asking you for an additional dime, while lowering your gas prices by a dollar or so and ending the gouging game of private corporations control over you. By the way, I am not a facist, I am a socialist. And who is government killing off & taking property from? YOU! BINGO! And it doesn't matter if we have a republican or a democrat, you have a constitution that allows it. Change the constitution.

Now answer the fucking question with a yes or no, or is that to hard for you to comprehend?

 

[JBeukema]

You are clearly the idiot. You're 'calling' for a decent standard of living? You are proving my point. It isn't anyone elses job to provide for you standard of living. IT's YOUR JOB. It's your job to figure out what skills you are going to need to earn the money needed to provide for your standard of living. How well do you think that society would work where everyone thinks it's everyone elses job to provide their standard of living?

I have bad news for the likes of you JB. Your standard of living will likely NEVER improve. know why? Because you no accountability having ass wipes refuse to acknowledge the one factor playing the largest role in what you SoL is.....YOU.

Sol is the name of our sun.

Also, 'elses' is not a word.

Thirdly: go to the library and ask for a history of the American labour movement.

Avoid much?

Every time you make an excuse for why your SoL is what it is that does not involve you, you prove my point.

Are you capable of forming a coherent sentence?

 

[JBeukema]

Your hearing must be going dude, because I never asked anyone for anything I didn't earn. Contrary, you are looking pretty ignorant right now muff-mouth, and no you can't suck my cock even though you asked. So take your Hitler & shove him up your ass where he will be close to your gerbil ranch, puke.

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally?

So why are you a liberal?

.

Because I am a humanitarian and hate seeing my fellow man (not foreigners) suffer needlessly for a state of mind.

Let me ask you, if you could end poverty and homelessness, have National Health Care, and gasoline for $2.00 a gallon, would you do it?

Now you're a Liberal? You said you were a social democrat. Then you advocated fascism in the guise of democratic socialism.

Can you try to keep your story straight?

 

[JBeukema]

And what in history tells you can't do it?

The fact that no socialist or liberal society has ever been able to do any of that.

Now surprise me. DON'T respond with "But that's because the right people have never been in charge! When WE'RE running it, it'll work great!"

Really? Hitler did it.

 

[shintao]

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally?

So why are you a liberal?

.

Because I am a humanitarian and hate seeing my fellow man (not foreigners) suffer needlessly for a state of mind.

Let me ask you, if you could end poverty and homelessness, have National Health Care, and gasoline for $2.00 a gallon, would you do it?

Now you're a Liberal? You said you were a social democrat. Then you advocated fascism in the guise of democratic socialism.

Can you try to keep your story straight?

Can you screw you head on? It appears to have fallen off your shoulders.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

One of the central questions of any political ideology is "Who should own and control the means the production?" (Means of production refers to factories, farmlands, machinery, office space, etc.) Generally there have been three approaches to this issue.

1.The first was aristocracy, in which a ruling elite owned the land and productive wealth, and peasants and serfs had to obey their orders in return for their livelihood.

2.The second is capitalism, which disbanded the ruling elite and allows a much broader range of private individuals to own the means of production. However, this ownership is limited to those who can afford to buy productive wealth; nearly all workers are excluded.

3.The third approach is socialism, which is defined as "the collective ownership and control of the means of production." That is, everyone owns and controls productive wealth, which is accomplished through the vote.

As you can see, there is a spectrum here, ranging from a few people owning productive wealth at one end, to everyone owning it at the other.
====http://www.huppi.com

I believe we are currently between 2 & 3 as we add more regulations, etc. to those that own & control production, due to flaws in Capitalism.

In a free market system there is no room for your agenda.

 

[editec]

Here's the problem with capitalism:

PROPERTY IS THEFT.​

Here's the problem with socialism:

POVERTY IS THEFT.​

Finding the correct mixture of freedom V regulation is something that we strive for, but that target keeps changing as conditions in the world change.

Most of the arguments advanced in defence or in opposition to these two different approches to governance are dependent on the BIFURCATION fallacy.

Now taking hard assed positions for or against these forms of governmance might make for some zesty prose, and might even make you feel super macho, but those hard assed all or nothing positions also make you look like an complete ignoramous.

 

[shintao]

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally?

So why are you a liberal?

.

Because I am a humanitarian and hate seeing my fellow man (not foreigners) suffer needlessly for a state of mind.

Let me ask you, if you could end poverty and homelessness, have National Health Care, and gasoline for $2.00 a gallon, would you do it?

Now you're a Liberal? You said you were a social democrat. Then you advocated fascism in the guise of democratic socialism.

Can you try to keep your story straight?

 

[daveman]

Really? Hitler did it. Was he socialist or a facist?

Chavez did it. Was he Democratic Socialist or a facist?

Hmm, Obviously you are wrong. Whatever you want to call private enterprise in America, they can't do it, and the Socialist have to help them out. Venezuela's Extra Gasoline Shipment for US set to Arrive in Florida | venezuelanalysis.com

So...you don't mind your goals being met, but at the cost of individual liberties.

What Liberty would you lose? You are taking back your property and your oil. Is that a lost or gained Liberty?

Ask the Venezuelans. Chavez now has the power to rule by decree. You think that's going to end well?

I wonder when some Obamabot is going to suggest the lame duck Congress do the same thing for Obama...

 

[JBeukema]

Because I am a humanitarian and hate seeing my fellow man (not foreigners) suffer needlessly for a state of mind.

Let me ask you, if you could end poverty and homelessness, have National Health Care, and gasoline for $2.00 a gallon, would you do it?

Now you're a Liberal? You said you were a social democrat. Then you advocated fascism in the guise of democratic socialism.

Can you try to keep your story straight?

Can you screw you head on? It appears to have fallen off your shoulders.

So you can't be bothered for any sort of consistency?

 

[keee keee]

His royal honor King Obama

 

[Intense]

Here's the problem with capitalism:

PROPERTY IS THEFT.​

Here's the problem with socialism:

POVERTY IS THEFT.​

Finding the correct mixture of freedom V regulation is something that we strive for, but that target keeps changing as conditions in the world change.

Most of the arguments advanced in defence or in opposition to these two different approches to governance are dependent on the BIFURCATION fallacy.

Now taking hard assed positions for or against these forms of governmance might make for some zesty prose, and might even make you feel super macho, but those hard assed all or nothing positions also make you look like an complete ignoramous.

Wow! Could you be more General? When you are finished, maybe remember to flush?

 

[Bern80]

Of the points that I made which, if any, do you actually doubt to be true? Everything I said in that post seemed self evident.

Obviously not. The very same reason socialism fails is the reason one effect of capitalism is wealth disparity. Because invariably you are not going to get everyone in the system to take responsibility for themselves. In socialism it results in the collapse of the system. In capitalism it creates wealth disparity among those who set and reach the goal of attaining wealth and those that don't have that goal.

I don't understand why you class warfare types don't get it. How is it that you expect people to have a certain SoL or level of wealth of those same people don't make that a goal?

Have you actually analyzed what you are saying that would lead to a collapse? Because I have, and I think you are wrong. The Euro-socialists do not think like American capitalists do. They have drive & work ethic & take pride in what they do as part of the whole. Everybody works in the socialist system, either in the communities or on the job. People don't lay on the couch with a remote control & worry about the house payment. Socialists have prepared a safety-net to put people back to work. Capitalists here won't spend the money, and prefer paying people to sit on their ass.

So study that facet up Bernie, just to be informed in your thinking.

I have and none of what you said refutes that. In fact it proves my point. But for the record the EU has comparable unemployment rates to the U.S. making it rather hard to make the case that their system is somehow better.

If you are contending that the europeans take more pride in work and have better work ethic than americans, those are all components of personal responsibility. So what have I just been saying? I have been saying that the financial disparities in the U.S. are not a result of a failure of capitalism. It is the result of the failure of individuals. Failure to have a decent work ethic, failure to work hard, failure to help one's fellow man. Failure to hold one's self to a higher standard.

A lot of people of said things in this thread about what capitalism is; it is the definition of wealth disparity, it demands an us vs. them. All Bullshit. All capitalism is, is opportunity. That opportunity is equal parts success and failure.

 

[Contumacious]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

You are a communist. Isn't there a communist country you could move to?

If he stays put for another year or so the US will be his paradise.

.

 

[shintao]

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

You are a communist. Isn't there a communist country you could move to?

If he stays put for another year or so the US will be his paradise.

.

I would be very afraid.