Who should own and control the means of production?

[shintao]

One of the central questions of any political ideology is "Who should own and control the means the production?" (Means of production refers to factories, farmlands, machinery, office space, etc.) Generally there have been three approaches to this issue.

1.The first was aristocracy, in which a ruling elite owned the land and productive wealth, and peasants and serfs had to obey their orders in return for their livelihood.

2.The second is capitalism, which disbanded the ruling elite and allows a much broader range of private individuals to own the means of production. However, this ownership is limited to those who can afford to buy productive wealth; nearly all workers are excluded.

3.The third approach is socialism, which is defined as "the collective ownership and control of the means of production." That is, everyone owns and controls productive wealth, which is accomplished through the vote.

As you can see, there is a spectrum here, ranging from a few people owning productive wealth at one end, to everyone owning it at the other.
====http://www.huppi.com

I believe we are currently between 2 & 3 as we add more regulations, etc. to those that own & control production, due to flaws in Capitalism.

 

[Avatar4321]

The people who own the property used.

 

[shintao]

The people who own the property used.

So you would opt for #1.

1.The first was aristocracy, in which a ruling elite owned the land and productive wealth, and peasants and serfs had to obey their orders in return for their livelihood.

The problem is when #2 has no restrictions from the people, they become corrupt and wish to revert back to #1. That is where you find Corporations wishing to go, to have compelete control over their domain.

 

[Avatar4321]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

 

[fyrenza]

ME,

but of Course!

 

[Avatar4321]

oh and your socialist theory doesn't work.

 

[shintao]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

 

[cutter]

Where have you seen a successful Socialist program? Never. Capitalism has been the most successful program ever. Problem is everyone wants to be boss and most aren't smart enough. At least with Capitalism if you are smart enough the bosses will make sure you get ahead. You don't have to be some 3rd cousin of the current dictator

 

[Lasher]

ME,

but of Course!

And who the fuck are you?

 

[Lasher]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

You're a sick, little, faggot commie.

 

[code1211]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

Well the 17th Century has sent a note. We must wonder as to when the time capsule was opened.

"He" exists only in your unicorn world. Business is owned for the most part by banks and contolled for the most part by corporations. Corporations sell stock to raise funds and that stock is owned by investors who are US. "Us" demands that the corporations show profits, issue dividends and protect our investments.

In your world "He" is the man with his boot on your throat. In the real world, "He" is some guy who took a risk to follow his passion whether that is dentistry or lawn maintenance and "He" is missing meals, working 18 hour days and in general committing the kind of effort that you don't even have the power to imagine.

If "He" works hard enough and is lucky enough, "He" might build a business that has a value that he can sell off and enjoy the end of his stress shortened life in his waning years enough to perhaps see his spoiled children give him him a grand child.

The problem with envy is not with those that are envied. It is with those who envy. If you don't like to work hard, there's no shame to that. There's no great honor, either. Why attack those that do like to work hard?

Why not just continue to enjoy the ride? Why throw stones at the guys pulling the wagon? If the guys pulling wagon put down the yoke, our little wagon stops and then what are we going to do?

Oh, wait. We are finding out right now. 2 to 3 Trillion dollars of business money is not being invested right now because the Big 0 has scared them to death with uncertainty. When the guys pulling the wagon stop pulling, we all suffer.

 

[Avatar4321]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

Then you do what you can to govern your own life. Stop trying to take the property of others for your benefit.

 

[shintao]

Where have you seen a successful Socialist program? Never. Capitalism has been the most successful program ever. Problem is everyone wants to be boss and most aren't smart enough. At least with Capitalism if you are smart enough the bosses will make sure you get ahead. You don't have to be some 3rd cousin of the current dictator

Capitalism is bankrupt to the tune 14Trillion, so stop talking nonsense. It has murdered millions in its Empirical wars, polluted the Earth, and starved the people it was to serve. And while you ignore it, socialism does work, and is shown to you over & over & over again, so you must be blind if you missed it. I am sure I could point out a country today and you would ask the same question tomorrow.

This debate has to do with what capitalism is capable of doing to the serfs, which is move you back to #1. if left unabated.

 

[Trajan]

One of the central questions of any political ideology is "Who should own and control the means the production?" (Means of production refers to factories, farmlands, machinery, office space, etc.) Generally there have been three approaches to this issue.

1.The first was aristocracy, in which a ruling elite owned the land and productive wealth, and peasants and serfs had to obey their orders in return for their livelihood.

2.The second is capitalism, which disbanded the ruling elite and allows a much broader range of private individuals to own the means of production. However, this ownership is limited to those who can afford to buy productive wealth; nearly all workers are excluded.

3.The third approach is socialism, which is defined as "the collective ownership and control of the means of production." That is, everyone owns and controls productive wealth, which is accomplished through the vote.

As you can see, there is a spectrum here, ranging from a few people owning productive wealth at one end, to everyone owning it at the other.
====http://www.huppi.com

I believe we are currently between 2 & 3 as we add more regulations, etc. to those that own & control production, due to flaws in Capitalism.

hummmm, hey, how about??!!!!

 

[WillowTree]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

You are a communist. Isn't there a communist country you could move to?

 

[Avatar4321]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

BTW Thank you for being honest about being a Robber.

 

[Avatar4321]

Where have you seen a successful Socialist program? Never. Capitalism has been the most successful program ever. Problem is everyone wants to be boss and most aren't smart enough. At least with Capitalism if you are smart enough the bosses will make sure you get ahead. You don't have to be some 3rd cousin of the current dictator

Capitalism is bankrupt to the tune 14Trillion, so stop talking nonsense. It has murdered millions in its Empirical wars, polluted the Earth, and starved the people it was to serve. And while you ignore it, socialism does work, and is shown to you over & over & over again, so you must be blind if you missed it. I am sure I could point out a country today and you would ask the same question tomorrow.

This debate has to do with what capitalism is capable of doing to the serfs, which is move you back to #1. if left unabated.

There are no serfs in capitalism.

Capitalism is merely the natural law of economics. It's what happens when the government doesn't oppress men and keep them from being their own masters.

 

[Avatar4321]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

You are a communist. Isn't there a communist country you could move to?

Of course not. He has to try to force this cancer on us too. Because he wants people to be as miserable as he is.

 

[Gadawg73]

Where have you seen a successful Socialist program? Never. Capitalism has been the most successful program ever. Problem is everyone wants to be boss and most aren't smart enough. At least with Capitalism if you are smart enough the bosses will make sure you get ahead. You don't have to be some 3rd cousin of the current dictator

Capitalism is bankrupt to the tune 14Trillion, so stop talking nonsense. It has murdered millions in its Empirical wars, polluted the Earth, and starved the people it was to serve. And while you ignore it, socialism does work, and is shown to you over & over & over again, so you must be blind if you missed it. I am sure I could point out a country today and you would ask the same question tomorrow.

This debate has to do with what capitalism is capable of doing to the serfs, which is move you back to #1. if left unabated.

The government has 14 trillion of debt.
Government is NOT capitalism.
Take a look at your house, your home, your family and all of their possessions.
That is capitalism. The US has 1/3 of the total assets in the world.
Last year we had 20 trillion in gross national product. 14 trillion is not good to have but that is good compared to the average consumer worldwide, very good for Americans.
The average American makes about 30% of what their debt is. An American that makes 60K a year has about 180K of debt in a mortgage, car etc.

 

[shintao]

And who exactly are you to take someone elses property?

I am me, who is everyone but the owner of production that I must make a living wage from. He the owner is a known dangerous person who must be owned and controlled from destroying us all. He should only exist as the government where I can control him.

Well the 17th Century has sent a note. We must woder as to when the time capsule was opened.

"He" exists only in your unicorn world. Business is owned for the most part by banks and contolled for the most part by corporations. Corporations sell stock to raise funds and that stock is owned by investors who are US. "Us" demands that the corporations show profits, issue dividends and protect our investments.

In your world "He" is the man with his boot on your throat. In the real world, "He" is some guy who took a risk to follow his passion whether that is dentistry or lawn maintenance and "He" is missing meals, working 18 hour days and in general committing the kind of effort that you don't even have the power to imagine.

If "He" works hard enough and is lucky enough, "He" might build a business that has a value that he can sell off and enjoy the end of his stress shortened life in his waning years enough to perhaps see his spoiled children give him him a grand child.

The problem with envy is not with those that are envied. It is with those who envy. If you don't like to work hard, there's no shame to that. There's no great honor, either. Why attack those that do like to work hard?

It's the guys pulling the wagon that cause it to move. Do you have to attack the pullers? Why not just continue to enjoy the ride?

Simply refreshing, so I take it you are #1.