CDZ Who should ideally be allowed to vote if you want to create a new country/sub country/provinces?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by grbb, Aug 23, 2018.

Tags:
  1. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    588
    Thanks Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +158
    1. All people.
    2. Men
    3. Women
    4. Men & Women
    5. Men, Women, and Children
    6. Land owners
    7. Mixed. Land owners and population
    8. Stockholders (so the new country is like a stock, and stockholders decide everything
    9. Forget voting. Let a dictator/CEO run the job and pay him based on indicators like GDP
    The purpose of the country can be anything. It can be a libertarian country. It can be a syariah. It can be a white only country. It can be anything. Kind of boring right if all countries in the world have the same goal.

    Say we want a normal country that just want to make the population prosper.

    I found something wrong no matter what we choose. For example, I read about VOC and free congo. Letting stockholders vote can have adverse effect on the population. In free congo, the population get their hand chopped off. In VOC, many javanese die due to "tanam paksa". One solution to this problem is "democracy". Let the people vote.

    But that leads to another problem.

    Look at this NU, Muhammadiyah criticize Meiliana blasphemy verdict

    NU and Muhammadiyah criticize Meiliana verdic. Those are muslims organization. What really happens?

    Meiliana complains the mosques are too loud. His complaints causes riots. Some muslims destroy and burn buddhist temples. Those who burn buddhist temples got 3 months in jail and Meiliana, got 1.8 months in jail due to her complain.

    So to be a bit balanced to the muslims, I point out that even muslim organizations criticizes the penalty. However, that's how the law nowadays are.

    The legal framework is a bit tricky. Blasphemy laws is "delik aduan" or re portable offense. Someone have to complain first before it becomes a crime. The Buddhist are coward or peaceful depending on how you see it. They do not complain that their temples are burned. The muslims are far more "hawkish". Cowardice is not their issue as can be seen by suicide bombings.

    Muslims like to announce daily prayer with loud speakers. Obviously non muslims do not like that. It lower land value near the area.

    Say the people can vote.

    Say you build a province or a new country. Say you govern well. What will happen is that many muslims or communists will come to your newly found country. If people can vote, they will simply vote for their "ways of doing things". As we can all see, almost no democratic muslim countries are rich. Many are failing or failed state.

    This is a big issue in Indonesia. The chinese are minority but understand money better. Sometimes, a businessman would buy a large plot of land and the land is more prosperous. The land price went up. However, the "adzan" voice keeps price low.

    Should we allow "adzan"?

    It depends on who votes. If votes are based on land ownership, the Chinese will have their way. After all, their land value will go up or down based on the law of the land. Normal population can just go somewhere else if they do not like it.

    If population can vote, any prosperous nation/provinces will simply be flooded with immigrants from poor countries. Those immigrants then vote for socialism/syariah/communism or any system that erode factors that cause the province to prosper in the first place.

    Nation states have a way to handle this. They simply reject immigrants. However, that causes economic inefficiency. In US, for example, many of the population still wash their own houses even though they can just hire cheap mexican for that. Allowing immigrants to come without becoming citizen solve this.

    However, this doesn't work for provinces or states within a country. Free movement of population means a person can move from a state they don't like to a state they do like. Say, California is capitalistic and Ohio is communist. Obviously California will be richer, and that would attract people from Ohio to California. Once in California, the new population that is also citizen, will simply vote for communism and redistribution of wealth. Knowing that, California will have little incentives to govern well.

    How do we properly align everyone's interests more "harmoniously". I want a system where if voters choose wisely, they and mainly they are the one that's prosperous and not voters in other states that do not choose wisely.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  2. Toronado3800
    Offline

    Toronado3800 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    5,925
    Thanks Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    85
    Ratings:
    +1,188
    Everyone who is an adult, isn't too bad of a criminal or absolutely certifiably nuts should be allowed to vote.

    We are all created equal if in different ways and should be inflicted with the responsibilities of it.
     
  3. CrusaderFrank
    Offline

    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    98,554
    Thanks Received:
    18,054
    Trophy Points:
    2,220
    Location:
    NYC
    Ratings:
    +63,039
    1. Veterans
    2. Taxpayers
    End of list
     
  4. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    588
    Thanks Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +158
    Basically say we can create a whole new country. Say countries are "privatized". Then there is no one right answer. I'd say give it a try.
     
  5. MarathonMike
    Offline

    MarathonMike Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2014
    Messages:
    9,963
    Thanks Received:
    3,083
    Trophy Points:
    390
    Location:
    The Southwestern Desert
    Ratings:
    +17,995
    Any citizen of the new country over the age of 21 (18 is too young IMO). But make make them earn their right to vote by passing a simple test proving basic knowledge of the country's laws and government. You pass the test you can vote, you fail the test you can't vote. Also home/land owner votes count 2 for 1.
     
  6. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    588
    Thanks Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +158
    How do you give citizenship? Should children of welfare parasite that breed 10 children have the same voting power with Bill Gates?


    That would encourage parasites to breed and breed. It's a big problem in US.
     
  7. grbb
    Offline

    grbb VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    588
    Thanks Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +158
    I am not saying I disagree. Remember, if land owners can vote twice, the Chinese can buy tons and tons of land. The Chinese are thrifty.

    My take is, there is no one right way.

    I think any private individuals or corporations should be able to make deals with government and create "private" province or "private" districts and govern as they see fit. Original inhabitants be given a right to vote whether they like it or not.

    Start with backward poor country with cheap land price. Ethiopia? Tons of starvation there. I don't think it's tough to persuade population there to accept some proposal. Too much war in Syria, make some offers to citizens there.

    Then make your own country.

    Chance is one of them will be libertarian.
     
  8. bear513
    Offline

    bear513 Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2012
    Messages:
    44,175
    Thanks Received:
    5,735
    Trophy Points:
    1,830
    Ratings:
    +29,201
    Only girls named Fred ,born on a Tuesday at 7:36 pm February 29th should be allowed to vote



    .
     
  9. Dogmaphobe
    Offline

    Dogmaphobe Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,780
    Thanks Received:
    2,399
    Trophy Points:
    1,095
    Location:
    Or uh gun
    Ratings:
    +13,338

    So, you're thinking 15, maybe 20 of the posters here at usmessqageboard if I am not mistaken.
     
    • Funny and Agree!! Funny and Agree!! x 1
  10. Billyboom
    Offline

    Billyboom Silver Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,232
    Thanks Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    95
    Ratings:
    +680
    So no poor people then. Got it.

    Sent from my SM-J727VPP using Tapatalk
     

Share This Page