Who is your favourite despot?

[Bfgrn]

xsisted -

I actually think despotism (and theories involving it) is an important subject, and one well worth discussing.

There are not many threads on this board concerning political theory, so I thought I'd start out with something I'd thought a lot of posters might have opinions on.

It's always frustrating with potentially good threads get spammed, but maybe we can move on with the topic now.

When you examine despotism it really boils down to authoritarianism...and when you examine authoritarianism it boils down to a right wing trait. There have been numerous studies on authoritarianism and the authoritarian personality like Theodor W. Adorno's The Authoritarian Personality (1950)...today, the leading authority (no pun intended) is Robert Altmeyer...

When you look at history, for example, Europe leading up to fascism in the 1920's there was a epidemic of liberal bashing.

The Hard Road to Fascism

Interestingly, in the late '80's after the fall of the Soviet Union, Gorbachev tried to implement a more democratic form of government. He was vehemently opposed by Stalinists...the conservatives...

Soviet Conservatives Try to Turn Back the Clock on Gorbachev's Policies - NYTimes.com

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer

What do you smoke, guy?


All the really horrible despots of the 20th century, from Hitler and Mussolini to Pol Pot and Castro and the Kim family have called themselves socialists of one stripe or another.

Just about the only exception I have seen is Pinochet. And he wasn't much of a despot, as he left the country in better shape than he found it, and he quit after an election. Daniel Ortega was the only lefty despot tossed from an election, but he still wrecked the place.

You are the one smoking right wing propaganda...my guess is the pea brain jonah goldberg.

I know it's hard to overcome your American parochial indoctrination, but ultra conservatives cling to tradition and orthodoxy... there is NOTHING American tradition and orthodoxy those cultures...

 

[Sodafin]

Herr Hitler was the greatest.

Except that he lost, of course.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

All the really horrible despots of the 20th century, from Hitler and Mussolini to Pol Pot and Castro and the Kim family have called themselves socialists of one stripe or another.

I can't agree with that either!

Not only Pinochet, but the Argentine generals, Rios Montte (Guatemala) Cristiani (El Salvador), Franco, Antonescu (Romania) and of course - Hitler. All right wing, no?

Hitler considered himself Socialist, as did Mussolini. The Socialist international of 1922 took place under his leadership.

Peron, the other South Americans you listed other than Pinochet, seem mostly to be non idealogical. Ideology was what other people did, they just cleaned out the treasury. And for all his talk, Peron governed as a lefty with lefty policies.

Pinochet and Franco seem to have been ideologically clueless. Pinochet's policies were lefty for a while, right for a while, depending on what he saw happening to the folks on the ground. Lefty worked real badly. So he tried the alternative, which worked better.

Franco seems mostly to have been a control freak for its own sake. He saw Spain tearing itself into pieces for no good reason, and put a stop to it the only way he knew.

 

[Sodafin]

Baruch -

By the Argentine generals I actually meant those of the Dirty War - Peronism is, as you suggest, as much left wing as right, though Peron did enjoy some ties with the Nazis. But the Generals were very right wing - and also very anti-semitic, incidentally.

I don't think a case can really be built to suggest Hitler was left wing - everything about the ideology of fascism screamed right wing to me.

For instance, Nazism is extremely capitalistic. Middle and upper classes investors poured money into companies such as IG Farben, and earned healthy dividends in return. It was Hitler's friends in the upper classes who levered him into power, and they did so as much for financial gain as political gain. It is an ideology built on class and capital.

With Mussolini you have more of a case, perhaps. As you say, he ruled more by conveniance than ideology.

 

[Sodafin]

Hitler considered himself Socialist, as did Mussolini. The Socialist international of 1922 took place under his leadership.

.

Actually that is not true. In fact:

The year 1922 was a critical time for the working class in other respects too. "The congress took place just after the first victory of fascism, when Benito Mussolini came to power in Italy," says John.

Fascism was then a totally new phenomenon. But the conference debated how to fight it and crafted the policy of organising a united front against fascism.

Uniting in struggle: John Riddell on Communist International in 1922|22Nov08|Socialist Worker

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Hiter was not at all a righty by any stretch. There were lots of businessmen who made lots of money, but the economy was directed from Berlin. Germany had 5 year plans just as Russia did. (Goering was the guy in charge of them)

And his racism and eugenics were considered trendy lefty at the time too. People forget that. Especially the eugenics aspect. Anti semitism is trendy lefty again, but not so loud. Large numbers of progressives were into the idea of perfecting humanity by cleansing it of undesirable genes. George Bernard Shaw made a lot of noise that way in the 20's. It was the reason the first Planned Parenthood clinic was set up where it was, in the middle of a Jewish neighborhood to convince people to have fewer untermenchen.

 

[Bfgrn]

Hiter was not at all a righty by any stretch. There were lots of businessmen who made lots of money, but the economy was directed from Berlin. Germany had 5 year plans just as Russia did. (Goering was the guy in charge of them)

And his racism and eugenics were considered trendy lefty at the time too. People forget that. Especially the eugenics aspect. Anti semitism is trendy lefty again, but not so loud. Large numbers of progressives were into the idea of perfecting humanity by cleansing it of undesirable genes. George Bernard Shaw made a lot of noise that way in the 20's. It was the reason the first Planned Parenthood clinic was set up where it was, in the middle of a Jewish neighborhood to convince people to have fewer untermenchen.

Nazi Leaders, Theism, and Family Values

According to standard biographies, the principal Nazi leaders were all born, baptized, and raised Christian. Most grew up in strict, pious households where tolerance and democratic values were disparaged. Nazi leaders of Catholic background included Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Joseph Goebbels.

Hitler did well in monastery school. He sang in the choir, found High Mass and other ceremonies intoxicating, and idolized priests. Impressed by their power, he at one time considered entering the priesthood.

Rudolf Hoess, who as commandant at Auschwitz-Birkinau pioneered the use of the Zyklon-B gas that killed half of all Holocaust victims, had strict Catholic parents. Hermann Goering had mixed Catholic-Protestant parentage, while Rudolf Hess, Martin Bormann, Albert Speer, and Adolf Eichmann had Protestant backgrounds. Not one of the top Nazi leaders was raised in a liberal or atheistic family—no doubt, the parents of any of them would have found such views scandalous. Traditionalists would never think to deprive their offspring of the faith-based moral foundations that they would need to grow into ethical adults.

 

[Sodafin]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Baruch.

I respect your reasoning and understand your point of view, but to me what defines both left and right wings is the perspective on both capital and class. In both elements Nazism was to the right.

I certainly agree that many of Hitler's views were shared by the left wing (i.e. eugenics, planned economy) just as some of Stalin's policies may have been shared by the right wing (rejection of rights for smaller ethnic groups).

I think what this tells us is that no ideology is ever pure.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Hiter was not at all a righty by any stretch. There were lots of businessmen who made lots of money, but the economy was directed from Berlin. Germany had 5 year plans just as Russia did. (Goering was the guy in charge of them)

And his racism and eugenics were considered trendy lefty at the time too. People forget that. Especially the eugenics aspect. Anti semitism is trendy lefty again, but not so loud. Large numbers of progressives were into the idea of perfecting humanity by cleansing it of undesirable genes. George Bernard Shaw made a lot of noise that way in the 20's. It was the reason the first Planned Parenthood clinic was set up where it was, in the middle of a Jewish neighborhood to convince people to have fewer untermenchen.

Nazi Leaders, Theism, and Family Values

According to standard biographies, the principal Nazi leaders were all born, baptized, and raised Christian. Most grew up in strict, pious households where tolerance and democratic values were disparaged. Nazi leaders of Catholic background included Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Joseph Goebbels.

Hitler did well in monastery school. He sang in the choir, found High Mass and other ceremonies intoxicating, and idolized priests. Impressed by their power, he at one time considered entering the priesthood.

Rudolf Hoess, who as commandant at Auschwitz-Birkinau pioneered the use of the Zyklon-B gas that killed half of all Holocaust victims, had strict Catholic parents. Hermann Goering had mixed Catholic-Protestant parentage, while Rudolf Hess, Martin Bormann, Albert Speer, and Adolf Eichmann had Protestant backgrounds. Not one of the top Nazi leaders was raised in a liberal or atheistic family—no doubt, the parents of any of them would have found such views scandalous. Traditionalists would never think to deprive their offspring of the faith-based moral foundations that they would need to grow into ethical adults.

This makes less sense than your usual post.

I haven't been to church in years except for weddings and funerals. I went a lot when my folks could catch me. Does that make me religious now?

Stalin was an altar boy too. So for that matter, only the methodist version, was the older Kim from North Korea. How does that affect the price of Kimchi in Pusan?

Hitler, like Stalin, like Pol Pot, like all kinds of other left wing loons believed that the state was perfectible by killing of those who disagreed with him. that isn't really ideology, that is just mental illness.

For me, the test of left or right is who does the thinking and choosing. the state or the individual. If you think the state should do that, that makes you a lefty. And untrustworthy.

 

[midcan5]

My favorite wannabe despot..

Cheney.

With that evil grin, he would have made a good despot - but was he really quite in the same class as Mao?

I think not.

Weird I was thinking of Cheney too, but this 'despot' was born at the wrong time, in the wrong nation, and in the wrong historical milieu.

PS If I had to pick one it would be Mao, simply because China is so big, and he managed to change it.

"If you think the United States could never elect an Adolf Hitler to power, note that David Duke would have become governor of Louisiana if it had just been up to the white voters in that state." Robert Altemeyer

Since these discussions often include ideology, for those interested this book is excellent.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Ideology-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/019280281X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262293762&sr=1-1[/ame]

 

[Bfgrn]

Hiter was not at all a righty by any stretch. There were lots of businessmen who made lots of money, but the economy was directed from Berlin. Germany had 5 year plans just as Russia did. (Goering was the guy in charge of them)

And his racism and eugenics were considered trendy lefty at the time too. People forget that. Especially the eugenics aspect. Anti semitism is trendy lefty again, but not so loud. Large numbers of progressives were into the idea of perfecting humanity by cleansing it of undesirable genes. George Bernard Shaw made a lot of noise that way in the 20's. It was the reason the first Planned Parenthood clinic was set up where it was, in the middle of a Jewish neighborhood to convince people to have fewer untermenchen.

Nazi Leaders, Theism, and Family Values

According to standard biographies, the principal Nazi leaders were all born, baptized, and raised Christian. Most grew up in strict, pious households where tolerance and democratic values were disparaged. Nazi leaders of Catholic background included Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Joseph Goebbels.

Hitler did well in monastery school. He sang in the choir, found High Mass and other ceremonies intoxicating, and idolized priests. Impressed by their power, he at one time considered entering the priesthood.

Rudolf Hoess, who as commandant at Auschwitz-Birkinau pioneered the use of the Zyklon-B gas that killed half of all Holocaust victims, had strict Catholic parents. Hermann Goering had mixed Catholic-Protestant parentage, while Rudolf Hess, Martin Bormann, Albert Speer, and Adolf Eichmann had Protestant backgrounds. Not one of the top Nazi leaders was raised in a liberal or atheistic family—no doubt, the parents of any of them would have found such views scandalous. Traditionalists would never think to deprive their offspring of the faith-based moral foundations that they would need to grow into ethical adults.

This makes less sense than your usual post.

I haven't been to church in years except for weddings and funerals. I went a lot when my folks could catch me. Does that make me religious now?

Stalin was an altar boy too. So for that matter, only the methodist version, was the older Kim from North Korea. How does that affect the price of Kimchi in Pusan?

Hitler, like Stalin, like Pol Pot, like all kinds of other left wing loons believed that the state was perfectible by killing of those who disagreed with him. that isn't really ideology, that is just mental illness.

For me, the test of left or right is who does the thinking and choosing. the state or the individual. If you think the state should do that, that makes you a lefty. And untrustworthy.

You are just confused by your parochial indoctrination. You are applying American tenets, ideals and beliefs to foreigners that were raised, educated and indoctrinated in a totally different culture...

When Gorbachev tried to liberalize Soviet society, the conservatives, the Stalinists, regarded the liberalization of Soviet society as a conspiracy by Jews, Masons and Westernizers.

Socialism is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the economy works. Democracy is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the government works. "Democracy," said Marx, "is the road to socialism." He was wrong about how economics and politics interact, but he did see their similar underpinnings.

Communism is conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just the Party Secretary) have any say in how the economy works. Republicans are conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just people controlling the Party figurehead) have any say in how the government works. The conservatives in the US are in the same position as the communists in the 30s, and for the same reason: Their revolutions failed spectacularly but they refuse to admit what went wrong.

A common mistake is to confuse Socialism, the economic system, with Communism, the political system. Communists are "socialist" in the same way that Republicans are "compassionate conservatives". That is, they give lip service to ideals they have no intention of practicing.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Again, how is any of that relevant? Your argument makes as much sense as the statement "All ducks are birds, therefore cats eat mice." Both statements may be true, but they have no relation to each other.

Stalin and Kim and Hitler all went to church when young. So did a lot of other people. (Did Charles Manson? I don't know.) Going to church does not make you a mass murderer.

Socialism as a system (and I am including Hitler's germany in this) does seem to curtail freedom of thought, action and conscience. It seems to start as a gooey wish that everyone's life be full of rainbows, and usually winds up like in cambodia, Mao's china, Cuba, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia as a charnel house with the pigs on top.

 

[Sodafin]

Weird I was thinking of Cheney too, but this 'despot' was born at the wrong time, in the wrong nation, and in the wrong historical milieu.

PS If I had to pick one it would be Mao, simply because China is so big, and he managed to change it.

"If you think the United States could never elect an Adolf Hitler to power, note that David Duke would have become governor of Louisiana if it had just been up to the white voters in that state." Robert Altemeyer

I agree about Mao - he was a very polished, very accomplished despot and hugely 'succesful' in a perverse kind of way.

Interesting to think of people who might have become despots in another time and place - imagine Cheney born in 1910 in Germany!! Cheney in jackboots and an SS jacket is a scary thought!

The same was often said about Margaret Thatcher, of course, and I always thought Mitterand would have suited a white military uniform with lots of medals like Mussolini!

 

[editec]

Mormar Khadaffi is my favorite despot.

Not only is he implenting a fairly fuctional version of a socialist state, but he's the snappiest dresser of all the depots currently alive.

 

[Sodafin]

Mormar Khadaffi is my favorite despot.

Not only is he implenting a fairly fuctional version of a socialist state, but he's the snappiest dresser of all the depots currently alive.

It's true - not despot has ever used dark glasses either as extensively or as effectively as our friend in Libya.

On the other hand - given it's impossible for independent travellers to get a visa to Libya, he is my sworn enemy!

 

[Samson]

Bush.

OMG will you ever be the same??

Anyway, my favorite despot is Henry VIII:

1. Told the Pope to Fuck Himself
2. Robbed from The Rich to Enrich himself
3. Never Paid Alimony