Who best reflects the Ideals of the Founding Fathers

[nodoginnafight]

IMHO - no one is doing a particularly good job right now.

The most important value reflected among our founding fathers was compromise.

This nation would have never been formed if a minority - or a majority - of the founders had insisted that our Constitution only reflect their values without making any concessions to tho they disagreed with.

Even the majority is obligated to adhere to a standard set of protections that insure a baseline of rights for the minority. One recent case of Democrats doing a poor job of following that example was when they went behind locked doors, wrote healthcare legislation, and passed it without allowing any dissenting input.

An example of Republicans doing a poor job of following that example is .... well .... virtually everything since then.

If you are truly dedicated to your principles, then you must also be committed to getting as much of those principles reflected in legislation - which means negotiation and compromise.

 

[Darkwind]

The most important value is Liberty. It was cherished so much by our founding fathers that many of them gave their lives and fortunes to it.

Compromise wasn't even a close 10th.

 

[SniperFire]

The most important value is Liberty. It was cherished so much by our founding fathers that many of them gave their lives and fortunes to it.

Compromise wasn't even a close 10th.

/thread

 

[nodoginnafight]

The most important value is Liberty. It was cherished so much by our founding fathers that many of them gave their lives and fortunes to it.

Compromise wasn't even a close 10th.

And what does liberty mean? How is "liberty" applied to individuals?

How do you transform liberty from an abstract concept into a functioning reality?

Without compromise, there is no liberty - because without compromise liberty remains in the abstract and not an enforceable concept.

 

[hazlnut]

The most important value is Liberty. It was cherished so much by our founding fathers that many of them gave their lives and fortunes to it.

Compromise wasn't even a close 10th.

The Liberty to go to school, sit in a first grade classroom, and NOT be shot.

The Liberty to go to see a comic book movie and NOT be shot.

The Liberty to hang out at the park, the neighborhood, the Church, and NOT be shot.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Of course keeping liberty in the abstract guarantees that it will not become a reality. Just what some folks seem hell bent on.

 

[there4eyeM]

Truly, the greatest betrayal is by the two parties that have divided up the country, acted criminally and sold down the river almost every good thing about the nation.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Truly, the greatest betrayal is by the two parties that have divided up the country, acted criminally and sold down the river almost every good thing about the nation.

Agreed. Anytime the good of the party is placed ahead of the good of the nation, the nation suffers.

 

[Wacky Quacky]

The most important value is Liberty. It was cherished so much by our founding fathers that many of them gave their lives and fortunes to it.

Compromise wasn't even a close 10th.

The Liberty to go to school, sit in a first grade classroom, and NOT be shot.

The Liberty to go to see a comic book movie and NOT be shot.

The Liberty to hang out at the park, the neighborhood, the Church, and NOT be shot.

Would you do the same the Republicans did, and give up liberty for a false security?

Being safe and not being shot isn't a liberty, it's a chance.

 

[nodoginnafight]

The most important value is Liberty. It was cherished so much by our founding fathers that many of them gave their lives and fortunes to it.

Compromise wasn't even a close 10th.

The Liberty to go to school, sit in a first grade classroom, and NOT be shot.

The Liberty to go to see a comic book movie and NOT be shot.

The Liberty to hang out at the park, the neighborhood, the Church, and NOT be shot.

Would you do the same the Republicans did, and give up liberty for a false security?

Being safe and not being shot isn't a liberty, it's a chance.

Of course the "liberty" to victimize others isn't really liberty either is it?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

John Adams:

"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."

George Washington:

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume."

 

[regent]

The most important value is Liberty. It was cherished so much by our founding fathers that many of them gave their lives and fortunes to it.

Compromise wasn't even a close 10th.

Do you realize the liberty the framers gave up creating the constitution? The took powers from their own government and gave them to a huge new government with lots of powers. They gave the new government, the power to tax for the general welfare, to regulate commerce, to raise armies and so on. Did the people have more liberty or less liberty after the framers had finished? Read these posts on liberty and the new government.

 

[nodoginnafight]

The most important value is Liberty. It was cherished so much by our founding fathers that many of them gave their lives and fortunes to it.

Compromise wasn't even a close 10th.

Do you realize the liberty the framers gave up creating the constitution? The took powers from their own government and gave them to a huge new government with lots of powers. They gave the new government, the power to tax for the general welfare, to regulate commerce, to raise armies and so on. Did the people have more liberty or less liberty after the framers had finished? Read these posts on liberty and the new government.

Again, defining what "liberty" meant to our new nation, required compromise.

 

[Old Rocks]

Serious compromise. Between slave owners and those that saw the institution for the evil that it was. Between those that feared central government, and those that feared balkanization of a new nation.

Sometimes the compromise required that problems be shelved in such a way that required major effort later to live up to the ideals in the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. The Civil war and the Civil Rights Movements were just some of the problems put off, and later settled in a manner that reflected the ideals of those documents.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The last 50 years? Bush the Elder and Bill Clinton. None of the others since 1960 come close.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Serious compromise. Between slave owners and those that saw the institution for the evil that it was. Between those that feared central government, and those that feared balkanization of a new nation.

Sometimes the compromise required that problems be shelved in such a way that required major effort later to live up to the ideals in the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. The Civil war and the Civil Rights Movements were just some of the problems put off, and later settled in a manner that reflected the ideals of those documents.

And putting off some of those debates probably helped us keep moving in the right direction rather than screeching to a complete standstill.